R+L=J v.53

[FrozenFire3]

My two cents on R+L casting.

The new, improved version of Dan Stevens LOL (gods, dude can loose weight :stunned: )

http://cdn04.cdn.jus...-estelle-04.jpg

He's naturally strawberry blonde, so no problem on that account.

Again from Downton Abbey (and Labyrinth...) beautiful Jessica Brown Findlay:

http://i2.listal.com...wn--findlay.jpg

They both have the advantage of being Brits, being that the casting trend for all the major Targs/Stark family members up to now.

[FrozenFire3]

Also whether dragons, the which are not mammals, can be warged is a open question, IMHO. It may be that all Jon gets out of that is a greater propensity to be accepted by Rhaegal or Viserion.

Well, birds are not mammals either...

Not bad!

I could use some debunking help, if you could:

"THEY DID NOT GET A FREE PASS. They DID it (incest), but they got backlash for it! When Rheagar's grandfather decided that Aerys was going to marry his sister Rheanys, there was an outcry that never really faded. It was one of the many, many things that contributed to the deterioration of Targaryan support among the nobles. Not least of which because when brother marries sister, this limits your ability to make important alliances though marriage. For a noble house still recovering from Aegon "marry whoever you want" The Unlikely, this was a very bad time to resurrect the incest tradition."

To my best knowledge, there is zero support for this in the books, rather the contrary. Are there any SSMs adressing the issue?

Not that I know of :dunno:

[The guy from the Vale]

Not bad!

I could use some debunking help, if you could:

"THEY DID NOT GET A FREE PASS. They DID it (incest), but they got backlash for it! When Rheagar's grandfather decided that Aerys was going to marry his sister Rheanys, there was an outcry that never really faded. It was one of the many, many things that contributed to the deterioration of Targaryan support among the nobles. Not least of which because when brother marries sister, this limits your ability to make important alliances though marriage. For a noble house still recovering from Aegon "marry whoever you want" The Unlikely, this was a very bad time to resurrect the incest tradition."

To my best knowledge, there is zero support for this in the books, rather the contrary. Are there any SSMs adressing the issue?

Ask for citations for that idea... really, he/she is putting that idea forward, he/she has to bring the evidence for the assertion. You can harldy prove a negative after all.

[Ygrain]

Ask for citations for that idea... really, he/she is putting that idea forward, he/she has to bring the evidence for the assertion. You can harldy prove a negative after all.

I have but haven't received a reply yet and not sure I will. However, I've seen this stuff on the forums a couple of times and I would like to put an end to it. To my best knowledge, the claim is false, but if I want to go Davos on them, I need to be sure :P

ETA: Surprise, surprise, no answer to this but yet another unbased claim that northern rite is not considered valid for anyone but northerners and that we never see a northern marriage. ROFL. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91664-if-lr-does-j-who-will-drop-the-bomb/page__st__140#entry4659301

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

My two cents on R+L casting.

The new, improved version of Dan Stevens LOL (gods, dude can loose weight :stunned: )

http://cdn04.cdn.jus...-estelle-04.jpg

He's naturally strawberry blonde, so no problem on that account.

Again from Downton Abbey (and Labyrinth...) beautiful Jessica Brown Findlay:

http://i2.listal.com...wn--findlay.jpg

They both have the advantage of being Brits, being that the casting trend for all the major Targs/Stark family members up to now.

Settled! Call the CD, they're perfect :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I have but haven't received a reply yet and not sure I will. However, I've seen this stuff on the forums a couple of times and I would like to put an end to it. To my best knowledge, the claim is false, but if I want to go Davos on them, I need to be sure :P

ETA: Surprise, surprise, no answer to this but yet another unbased claim that northern rite is not considered valid for anyone but northerners and that we never see a northern marriage. ROFL. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91664-if-lr-does-j-who-will-drop-the-bomb/page__st__140#entry4659301

I just read a few pages of that thread and, honestly- for the sake of my blood pressure, what I read made me glad I didn't jump in yesterday (almost did...)

You of course have the right of it- the Ramsay-FArya marriage is described in detail and very significant in terms of inheritance. Also, I think there's an argument to be made that the weirwood marriage is MORE binding than one performed by a Septon, as there is no intermediary who could later go back and "dissolve" the union for this reason or that.

As far as that first claim goes, IMO it's utter nonsense. Possibly the poster is thinking of the fact that Egg's children marrying for love brought grief to the realm? Otherwise I don't see what they could be referencing.

[Maxpey]

Or, (go get a drink), :), Odette Yustman with grey contacts:

http://searchweight....e-yustman-2.jpg

She is absolutely beautiful, but for some reason I can't see her as Lyanna.

[LadyMary]

Fascinating post. I agree with the premise completely and the underlying facts. I simply don't believe there is enough evidence as of yet to really know what martins thinking. You had more chutzpah than I do to craft a specific theory behind many of the hidden clues. I'm not quite ready to commit however your post solidified my inherent belief that the merging of the targ bloodline with the stark bloodline is is the key to everything. It goes way beyond Ned's sister married to the heir to the iron throne. The series is fanatical about bloodlines and ancestry, more so than anyone in our world. The targsmarry each other to keep their line pure. There must always be a stark in the north. Etc. I almost wonder if the entire battle isn't so much about humans vs the others but instead humans and science vs supernatural and magic. The targs and Starks are clearly the only magical bloodlines. Any individual who has magic turns out to have a stark or targ ancestor. I wonder if the maesters and mankind will fight the Starks, targs, others, dragons, greenseers etc for the future of the world. Let the children play their game of thrones. It's a slight of hand to believe the prize is the iron throne when the prize is actually a future for man or a future for magic. The night knight married an other. Benjen stark when he was killed became an other (not a wight), and I think the magic of the wall could turn Jon into an other. Starks are not the enemies of the others. Humanity is the enemy of the others. As blood raven tells bran, darkness is not his enemy. Darkness is the enemy of man.

Interesting theories, and I agree with the main premise that a merging of Stark and Targaryen magic will be critical to the real fight against to Others, but the Starks and Targaryens are not the only ones who have magic. Maybe they are genetically predisposed to certain kinds of magic, but there are other people who can harness magic such as Melisandre, Moqorro and Thoros. It seems the magic of R'hollor can be learned, but we don't know if those priests were chosen because they has some innate magical propensity or just manifested a talent for it while they were slaves of R'hollor. We do know there are Eastern magics of the Dragons Lords of old Valyria, the Faceless Men, the Warlocks of Qarth, etc. And there is a Western magic of the Children of the Forests and First Men. We don't have all the details of the magic that fortifies the Wall except that it was a Stark that built the Wall with the possible help from Giants. Magic supposedly fortifies Storms End, although it is neither a Stark nor a Targaryen strong hold.

I think magic exists in the natural environment of the world of ASOIAF but how it is used or abused depends on the practitioners that harness it. Some deny its power or actively try to subvert it, particularly the Maesters, but it definitely exists and it doesn't only exist with Starks and Targaryens.

[MtnLion]

She is absolutely beautiful, but for some reason I can't see her as Lyanna.

Oh, contrary, she has the wild beauty I expected. She is stunning, and I bet she can ride a horse. ;)

[WildBlood]

let me throw my hat in the ring for Lyanna:

http://img.poptower.com/pic-119958/antje-traue.jpg?d=1024

[alienarea]

Now, let's dance.

I know most of you are believing in R+L=J, but I have some difficulties there. To me, it doesn't add up.

The main argument (or elephant in the room) seems to be the three members of the Kingsguard being at the ToJ, and the best explanation for this is that they are protecting Lyanna's son, the king.

If so, Lyanna should have given birth before the battle of the Trident, because I don't think anyone could have told the gender of the child before it was born. Plus Rhaegar was expecting a girl because of the prophecy. That would make Lyanna's son older than Robb, wouldn't it? (and from a military point it is not acceptable to have three members from the Kingsguard including the best fighter in Westeros someplace else when the prince faces the rebel leader).

Next thing: Rhaegar dies before Aerys. I maybe don't understand Targaryen succession, but unless the three Kingsguard knew that baby Aegon had been killed (how would they know this at the ToJ?), Lyanna's child is not king? Since they were there before since the Trident, they could not have been protecting the king. :dunno:

Lyanna could have asked Ned to promise about anything, from not telling Robert that she didn't like him and loved Rhaegar to please shave, and I won't even start with the blue flower symbolism.

If Lyanna gave birth before the battle of the Trident, wouldn't she have been beyond childbed fever by the time of the ToJ showdown?

If only Howland Reed and Ned Stark survived the fight, who took care of Lyanna's child while they took down the ToJ, build seven cairns and rode to Starfall? The child would have starved. wouldn't it? Wylla or any other servant being at the ToJ is not hinted at anywhere in the books.

And, I l know Ned is all honorable and always happy to take a stupid decision, but how would he know that Lyanna's child wouldn't look very Targaryen five years down the road? Unless she told him the father wasn't Rhaegar he couldn't exclude this.

Finally, I imagine Ned Stark, Howland Reed, a baby, a spare red horse and Dawn returning to Starfall and nobody is curious what happened and starts talking. Sure.

[Ygrain]

The main argument (or elephant in the room) seems to be the three members of the Kingsguard being at the ToJ, and the best explanation for this is that they are protecting Lyanna's son, the king.

If so, Lyanna should have given birth before the battle of the Trident, because I don't think anyone could have told the gender of the child before it was born. Plus Rhaegar was expecting a girl because of the prophecy. That would make Lyanna's son older than Robb, wouldn't it? (and from a military point it is not acceptable to have three members from the Kingsguard including the best fighter in Westeros someplace else when the prince faces the rebel leader).

The KG were staying at ToJ at Rhaegar's orders, and were fully entitled to do so as long as Aerys had the other KG with him to fulfill the first KG duty. The crucial part for the R+L=legit J argument is the time after the death of Aegon and Aerys when Viserys would have been the king and his protection should have taken priority over fulfilling Rhaegar's orders, yet the KG do not go to Viserys, do not even split their number to cover both duties, and instead highlight that they are staying at ToJ because of their KG duty.

Next thing: Rhaegar dies before Aerys. I maybe don't understand Targaryen succession, but unless the three Kingsguard knew that baby Aegon had been killed (how would they know this at the ToJ?), Lyanna's child is not king? Since they were there before since the Trident, they could not have been protecting the king. :dunno:

At the point when they are talking to Ned, they know already, of all events. There is no trace of shock or surprise over what he is telling them, and some of his cues wouldn't have made sense to them if they hadn't known already.

Lyanna could have asked Ned to promise about anything, from not telling Robert that she didn't like him and loved Rhaegar to please shave, and I won't even start with the blue flower symbolism.

Whatever she asked it couldn't be "anything" as the promise keeps haunting him even fourteen years later and he specifically recalls a price that he paid for keeping it.

If Lyanna gave birth before the battle of the Trident, wouldn't she have been beyond childbed fever by the time of the ToJ showdown?

Lyanna gave birth 8-9 months prior Dany was born, i.e. at around the time of the Sack or within a month since.

If only Howland Reed and Ned Stark survived the fight, who took care of Lyanna's child while they took down the ToJ, build seven cairns and rode to Starfall? The child would have starved. wouldn't it? Wylla or any other servant being at the ToJ is not hinted at anywhere in the books.

Answered you in the other thread. The presence of another person or persons is hinted in the books. It is not specifically mentioned that someone had to cook and do the laundry at ToJ, yet it is quite safe to assume that these activities took place.

And, I l know Ned is all honorable and always happy to take a stupid decision, but how would he know that Lyanna's child wouldn't look very Targaryen five years down the road? Unless she told him the father wasn't Rhaegar he couldn't exclude this.

Then he would have to come up with some solution five years later, but as a baby, Jon apparently didn't look Targish and therefore Ned didn't have to address the problem. Five years later, the rumour of the purple-eyes Ashara Dayne was already deeply set, so if Jon developed such features, they would only fuell the already existing gossip.

Finally, I imagine Ned Stark, Howland Reed, a baby, a spare red horse and Dawn returning to Starfall and nobody is curious what happened and starts talking. Sure.

How about Ned leaving the child and the wetnurse hidden and entering Starfall on his own, for exactly this very reason? It is not stated in the books that such an entourage ever entered Starfall, so this really doesn't present a problem.

[alienarea]

The KG were staying at ToJ at Rhaegar's orders, and were fully entitled to do so as long as Aerys had the other KG with him to fulfill the first KG duty. The crucial part for the R+L=legit J argument is the time after the death of Aegon and Aerys when Viserys would have been the king and his protection should have taken priority over fulfilling Rhaegar's orders, yet the KG do not go to Viserys, do not even split their number to cover both duties, and instead highlight that they are staying at ToJ because of their KG duty.

I don't care whether Jon is or is not legit. My point is: The prince rides into battle, leaving the best swordsman and two other members of the kingsguard behind without knowing whether the to be born child who will be a boy. And even if the to born child will be a boy the baby won't be #1 in succession. It's fine to protect Lyanna and the to be born baby, but 2 members of the kingsguard should be enough. And I would rather have my best friend, who happens to be the best fighter in Westeros, at my side when riding into battle. That does not make any sense to me.

At the point when they are talking to Ned, they know already, of all events. There is no trace of shock or surprise over what he is telling them, and some of his cues wouldn't have made sense to them if they hadn't known already.

Well, obviously they know when they see Ned and co approaching. My point is, As soon as they knew Rhaegar was killed at the Trident, and before the sack of KL, they should have asked for new orders, shouldn't they? It looks like they followed Rhaegar beyond his death, which is not what the Kingsguard should do. If this is the case, than the argument of the Kingsguard protects the king is invalid iMHO because they follow something else.

Whatever she asked it couldn't be "anything" as the promise keeps haunting him even fourteen years later and he specifically recalls a price that he paid for keeping it.

Anything is of course an exaggeration, but Lyanna could have asked Ned not to tell Robert she willingly ran away with Rhaegar, for example. Since Robert was Ned's best friend and he started a rebellion based on false assumptions that would haunt Ned for 14 years. Especially when Robert is still grieving about Lyanna like he does.

Lyanna gave birth 8-9 months prior Dany was born, i.e. at around the time of the Sack or within a month since.

Daenerys doesn't matter here. The timeline is not precise, but to me it looks like Jon is older than Rob. Which would on the one hand make it easier for Ned 'that was before we married" and on the other hand more difficult, because Catelyn then might fear that Ned legitimizes Jon and "her" Robb loses Winterfell. Also something which could haunt Ned for a while?

Answered you in the other thread. The presence of another person or persons is hinted in the books. It is not specifically mentioned that someone had to cook and do the laundry at ToJ, yet it is quite safe to assume that these activities took place.

I dragged it over here for the proper place. And, to me it is not hinted at. May I ask you to provide a quote? Edric Storm stating that Jon was his milk brother rather hints at Jon being at Starfall for a longer time (Ashara, here's looking at you) than a wet nurse being at the ToJ.

Then he would have to come up with some solution five years later, but as a baby, Jon apparently didn't look Targish and therefore Ned didn't have to address the problem. Five years later, the rumour of the purple-eyes Ashara Dayne was already deeply set, so if Jon developed such features, they would only fuell the already existing gossip.

We have different opinions here. Most likely Jon didn't look neither Stark nor Targ but was bald and screaming.

How about Ned leaving the child and the wetnurse hidden and entering Starfall on his own, for exactly this very reason? It is not stated in the books that such an entourage ever entered Starfall, so this really doesn't present a problem.

See above. No wetnurse in my book plus the ToJ had been torn down. Leaving a wet nurse plus baby in the wild is not honorable Ned.

[Ygrain]

I don't care whether Jon is or is not legit. My point is: The prince rides into battle, leaving the best swordsman and two other members of the kingsguard behind without knowing whether the to be born child who will be a boy. And even if the to born child will be a boy the baby won't be #1 in succession. It's fine to protect Lyanna and the to be born baby, but 2 members of the kingsguard should be enough. And I would rather have my best friend, who happens to be the best fighter in Westeros, at my side when riding into battle. That does not make any sense to me.

Perhaps he valued Lyanna more than his own life?Perhaps he thought that a lone woman in the middle of nowhere, at the mercy of any vagabond that might happen nearby, needs as much protection as can be get?

Plus, an issue that I have been arguing for some time, though I can't support it with any quote: I think Rhaegar didn't want the KG to go back to KL, so that Aerys wouldn't find out where Lyanna was, as she would have been a hostage both against her brother and agianst Rhaegar himself.

Well, obviously they know when they see Ned and co approaching. My point is, As soon as they knew Rhaegar was killed at the Trident, and before the sack of KL, they should have asked for new orders, shouldn't they? It looks like they followed Rhaegar beyond his death, which is not what the Kingsguard should do. If this is the case, than the argument of the Kingsguard protects the king is invalid iMHO because they follow something else.

There seems to be only a short time window between the Trident and the Sack, and the news would have reached ToJ with considerable delay, as it wasn't on the ravenmail network.

Anything is of course an exaggeration, but Lyanna could have asked Ned not to tell Robert she willingly ran away with Rhaegar, for example. Since Robert was Ned's best friend and he started a rebellion based on false assumptions that would haunt Ned for 14 years. Especially when Robert is still grieving about Lyanna like he does.

But what price did Ned pay to keep this secret?

Daenerys doesn't matter here. The timeline is not precise, but to me it looks like Jon is older than Rob. Which would on the one hand make it easier for Ned 'that was before we married" and on the other hand more difficult, because Catelyn then might fear that Ned legitimizes Jon and "her" Robb loses Winterfell. Also something which could haunt Ned for a while?

She does matter because Jon's birth is established in relation to hers, and we know that she was conceived very shortly prior the Sack and was born nine months later, hence the timing.

I dragged it over here for the proper place. And, to me it is not hinted at. May I ask you to provide a quote? Edric Storm stating that Jon was his milk brother rather hints at Jon being at Starfall for a longer time (Ashara, here's looking at you) than a wet nurse being at the ToJ.

The presence of another person or persons at ToJ is hinted - or rather, explicitely stated. When Lyanna dies, Ned is so stricken with grief that he doesn't know what is going on around him and doesn't recall HR taking her hound out of his "when they found him still holding her body" (not an exact quote, I do not have AGOT in original).

Edric Dayne being Jon's milk brother doesn't hint at a location or time period in the slightest, the only information it provides is that he and Jon were nursed by the same woman.

We have different opinions here. Most likely Jon didn't look neither Stark nor Targ but was bald and screaming.

Provide a quote that Jon was bald or stop using this as an argument. The change of colouring or the lack of hair is not as prominent as you would have it, and is really insignificant, as Ned already had a convenient excuse at hand in his supposed affair with Ashara. If Jon turned out Stark-lloking, no explanation was needed, if he turned out Targ, reminding everyone that Daynes have purple eyes and silver hair would have done the trick.

See above. No wetnurse in my book plus the ToJ had been torn down. Leaving a wet nurse plus baby in the wild is not honorable Ned.

And why should he leave them in the wilderness? Travel to Starfall, leave them hidden just before the town proper, rent a ship to take them North with HR and arrange a pick-up somewhere off the port so as not to raise suspicion.

[Jon Icefyre]

@Ygrain Damn you beat me to it lol, but I couldn't have said it better myself, I completely agree with everything you said. :bowdown:

Anything is of course an exaggeration, but Lyanna could have asked Ned not to tell Robert she willingly ran away with Rhaegar, for example. Since Robert was Ned's best friend and he started a rebellion based on false assumptions that would haunt Ned for 14 years. Especially when Robert is still grieving about Lyanna like he does.

Wait so what's your point here? There would be no harm whatsoever in Ned telling Robert the truth if there was not a child involved....Don't forget the rebellion was officially started because Aerys called for the heads of Robert and Ned after he executed Rickard and Brandon Stark.....

[alienarea]

The presence of another person or persons at ToJ is hinted - or rather, explicitely stated. When Lyanna dies, Ned is so stricken with grief that he doesn't know what is going on around him and doesn't recall HR taking her hound out of his "when they found him still holding her body" (not an exact quote, I do not have AGOT in original).

This could have happened before the fight, or maybe one of Ned's buddies was still alive when they found him but died a little later, or, of course, someone not mentioned was there.

Like the other points it could go either way.

And why should he leave them in the wilderness? Travel to Starfall, leave them hidden just before the town proper, rent a ship to take them North with HR and arrange a pick-up somewhere off the port so as not to raise suspicion.

Yes, sure. But it depends on 'they' above being a wetnurse, most likely Wylla.

Provide a quote that Jon was bald or stop using this as an argument. The change of colouring or the lack of hair is not as prominent as you would have it, and is really insignificant, as Ned already had a convenient excuse at hand in his supposed affair with Ashara. If Jon turned out Stark-lloking, no explanation was needed, if he turned out Targ, reminding everyone that Daynes have purple eyes and silver hair would have done the trick.

Please provide a quote he had dark hair :D

Perhaps he valued Lyanna more than his own life?Perhaps he thought that a lone woman in the middle of nowhere, at the mercy of any vagabond that might happen nearby, needs as much protection as can be get?

Plus, an issue that I have been arguing for some time, though I can't support it with any quote: I think Rhaegar didn't want the KG to go back to KL, so that Aerys wouldn't find out where Lyanna was, as she would have been a hostage both against her brother and agianst Rhaegar himself..

Of course that is possible, but it feels very constructed. I would assume Rhaegar wanted to win the war first (and Arthur Dayne could be helpful there) and sort the other things later.

But what price did Ned pay to keep this secret?

Losing his friend Robert, apparently they didn't see for nine years, lying to Catelyn, pretending Lyanna got raped by Rhaegar and the people who died (including his five friends at the ToJ) didn't do so for a teenage crush :dunno:

[Jory Cassel]

The presence of another person or persons at ToJ is hinted - or rather, explicitely stated. When Lyanna dies, Ned is so stricken with grief that he doesn't know what is going on around him and doesn't recall HR taking her hand out of his "when they found him still holding her body" (not an exact quote, I do not have AGOT in original).

Edric Dayne being Jon's milk brother doesn't hint at a location or time period in the slightest, the only information it provides is that he and Jon were nursed by the same woman.

fixed that for you :P really confused me for a second

also the exact quote:

"Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief."

eta:

This could have happened before the fight, or maybe one of Ned's buddies was still alive when they found him but died a little later, or, of course, someone not mentioned was there.

No, this could not have happened before the fight, as soon as Ned approaches the Tower of Joy, the fighting starts, see Ned's dream.

[alienarea]

Wait so what's your point here?

Lyanna is styled by Robert (and Ned doesn't contradict) as the kidnapped and raped victim of Rhaegar Targaryen. Now if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, Aerys maybe would have had to answer for murdering Brandon and Lord Rickard and asking for Robert's and Ned's head, but he was the mad king anyway. Also Brandon who started all this because he thought Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna died for nothing, same as Lord Rickard. Basically a girlie in love triggered the fall of house Stark because of a foolish crush for an emo harp player and lyric. When she realizes this dying she asks Ned to promise to keep up the lie,

[Ygrain]

This could have happened before the fight, or maybe one of Ned's buddies was still alive when they found him but died a little later, or, of course, someone not mentioned was there.

Like the other points it could go either way.

Nope. The fight took place upon Ned's arrival before he talked to Lyanna. If someone survived the fight but died soon afterwards so that Ned built the right number of cairns, he wouldn't be in the state to come looking for Ned.

Yes, sure. But it depends on 'they' above being a wetnurse, most likely Wylla.

No, it doesn't - as I said in the other thread, a servant and a goat would do. The point here is that the book allows that a wetnurse might have been present and doesn't say explicitely that there was none.

Please provide a quote he had dark hair :D

I don't need to, the scenario I offered doesn't rely on the colour of his hair.

Of course that is possible, but it feels very constructed. I would assume Rhaegar wanted to win the war first (and Arthur Dayne could be helpful there) and sort the other things later.

Rhaegar had three other KG with him at Trident, yet it didn't save him. If Robert challenged him to a single combat, Arthur wouldn't have been allowed to interfere, anyway.

Losing his friend Robert, apparently they didn't see for nine years, lying to Catelyn, pretending Lyanna got raped by Rhaegar and the people who died (including his five friends at the ToJ) didn't do so for a teenage crush :dunno:

It is stated that they made it good after Lyanna's death, they didn't see each other because Ned preferred to stay in the North and Robert was engaged in the South.

Keeping Lyanna's involvement secret still doesn't tax Ned in any way - no-one questions him, no-one suspects, and his silence doesn't affect a thing for anyone.

[Old-Growth]

Well, birds are not mammals either...

True, I had forgotten about that. So back to the drawing board :(