[TWoW Spoilers] Worldcon reading: second Tyrion chapter

[Bini]

Actually we should think about it differently. GRRM sent Barristan over to Dany at the end of Book 2, and likely planned it since Book 1. Since Barristan's presence with Dany has been part of his gameplan for so long, it is surely building up to something more interesting than "and then Barristan Selmy randomly died in battle at Meereen."

In fact the true future of Barristan's arc is foreshadowed quite well at the end of ASOS. GRRM spends a great deal of time introducing the concept that Barristan only wants to serve "the rightful king/queen" and spent time assessing Dany before revealing his identity, because he feared Targ madness and was wondering if she'd go mad.

With all this in mind it is obvious that Barristan will stick around for the second dance of the dragons. Aegon's appearance will make him wonder whether Dany truly is the rightful claimant, and their increasingly bloody conflict (filled with dragon destruction) will make him wonder whether he's on the right side. And he may at some point have cause to revisit his initial determination that there was "no taint" in Dany.

Now this is something that sounds very GRRMish, heh

Really nice...

Barristan won't die yet as he must play out Tyrion's dream and Lemore's (Ashara) existence. Victarion won't die as there's no-one else to sail the Iron Fleet back to Westeros.

Well, the Iron Fleet can very well "sail itself" to Westeros. Every ship has its own captain, and on the possibility that they fall under the orders of someone else other than Victarion they could just set sail, no need of him at all as for the "sailing" part, strictly speaking. What's doubtful, though, is where their allegiance will lie in the event of Victarion's death (if it happens). I believe that's what you really meant and why you think he's needed and can't die (because them, by being ironborn, won't accept orders from other people, silver queen or not, easily), but I can't picture them staying in Meereen reaving and raiding. I think they will ultimately choose to come back to Westeros even in the absence of Victarion, as they won't have much option.

[aFeastForDragons]

In typical GRRM fashion the horn will be blown and something very bad will happen.

I really don't like how he is revealing so much of TWOW but its going to be a massive book hopefully with the pacing of ASOS.

[LIK]

This intense WoW discussion is making me drool. When its released Im pretty sure ill seclude myself in a cave for 2 weeks :drool:

It was said earlier that there are too many POVs in Mereen and that Barristan will probably die. I dont like the idea, at least not that soon. Barristan is important key for too many unanswered questions about Aerys and Rhaegar to just be discarded so recklessly.

[alienarea]

Euron could never have anticipated Black Flame, your right about that. Personally, I think at least one POV needs to die in Meerene. We're at the potentially penultimate book, winter has come, and its the biggest battle yet, not to mention the last major character death was in ASOS.

You skipped the last Jon Snow chapter in ADwD?

This should be the time for Tyrion to go, because:

- he has survived so far with a lot of luck which can't last forever

- he is now just a refugee dwarf in the middle of a battle in a foreign country.

- he has, besides of luck, survived because of his strategies and wits but this time no one listens to his battle plans

- after killing Shae and Tywin he needs to be punished. Kinslaying is very, very bad in this series.

- Tyrion thinks of Shae (who is dead) and Penny is worried for the battle. The cliché is that those who are worried survive but theirs pals die.

- switching sides in the middle of a battle often makes you the target of both sides

- the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa needs to be resolved rather sooner than later

- most readers don't expect Tyrion to die

[Pliskin]

Tyrion's death now is bad storytelling, so it won't happen.

The same reason why Jon is not dead or will be resurrected somehow.

[Newstar]

You skipped the last Jon Snow chapter in ADwD?

This should be the time for Tyrion to go, because:

- he has survived so far with a lot of luck which can't last forever

- he is now just a refugee dwarf in the middle of a battle in a foreign country.

- he has, besides of luck, survived because of his strategies and wits but this time no one listens to his battle plans

- after killing Shae and Tywin he needs to be punished. Kinslaying is very, very bad in this series.

- Tyrion thinks of Shae (who is dead) and Penny is worried for the battle. The cliché is that those who are worried survive but theirs pals die.

- switching sides in the middle of a battle often makes you the target of both sides

- the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa needs to be resolved rather sooner than later

- most readers don't expect Tyrion to die

Hahaha, nope! Tyrion is no more dying during this battle than Jon is permanently dead. (And if you think Jon is permanently dead, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.) And if the Tyrion/Sansa marriage needs to be "resolved" through one of them dying, it will be through Sansa's death, not Tyrion's, trust me. She's far more expendable than he is, and GRRM likes Tyrion far more than he likes her, to the extent that he likes her at all.

...I also suspect the prospect of being able to write Tyrion chapters is the only thing keeping GRRM writing this thing. Whatever the "logical" reasons you may think dictate killing off Tyrion sooner rather than later, GRRM's going to ride the Tyrion pony to the finish line, or at least to the last foot of the race.

[Arkash]

The Yunkaish are throwing victims of the "pale mare" to Meereen with the trebuchets in order to spread the disease. Viserion who smelled blood is grabbing the bodies in the air and eating them. At least that's what I understood.

Viserion dying from the pale mare would be unexpected ! ^^

[The Imperator]

Now THAT would be a twist! Imagine the reactions people would have! [Remembers RW reaction videos on youtube fondly.]

Seeing the butthurt reactions over Dany's death would be... magnificent.

[TalalOfDorne]

Interesting stuff.

Just a question, when we take in the already released chapters (Whole and summary) and add the confirmed ones like Sansa, Arya, and Aeron, would the total be around a third of the book? Im probably wrong, but it sounds like those battles are taking a huge part of the book, and that leads me to think that there might be eight books.

[Ser Tahu]

Interesting stuff.

Just a question, when we take in the already released chapters (Whole and summary) and add the confirmed ones like Sansa, Arya, and Aeron, would the total be around a third of the book? Im probably wrong, but it sounds like those battles are taking a huge part of the book, and that leads me to think that there might be eight books.

I believe we only know enough chapters to make around 1/8 of the book. So far I think we only know of around 10 chapters, and the book is almost guaranteed to be around 80-90 chapters long.

[TalalOfDorne]

I believe we only know enough chapters to make around 1/8 of the book. So far I think we only know of around 10 chapters, and the book is almost guaranteed to be around 80-90 chapters long.

I actually hope Im way off in my estimation. That seemed like a lot of chapters to me so I thought they were a more significant portion of the book.

[LIK]

I cant think of bigger taboo for this series than Tyrions death and maybe that of Daenerys. They might die, but at the very end of the series, otherwise books would be very hollow, no new character no matter what kind of "shadow" they cast cant replace those two.

[chrisdaw]

Well, the Iron Fleet can very well "sail itself" to Westeros. Every ship has its own captain, and on the possibility that they fall under the orders of someone else other than Victarion they could just set sail, no need of him at all as for the "sailing" part, strictly speaking. What's doubtful, though, is where their allegiance will lie in the event of Victarion's death (if it happens). I believe that's what you really meant and why you think he's needed and can't die (because them, by being ironborn, won't accept orders from other people, silver queen or not, easily), but I can't picture them staying in Meereen reaving and raiding. I think they will ultimately choose to come back to Westeros even in the absence of Victarion, as they won't have much option.

If Victarion was going to die in Meereen GRRM would not have killed Groleo off, Victarion is the necessary conduit between the land and sea forces heading West.

[honeyed chicken]

Also, Honeyed Chicken [sounds delicious], why would Tyrion's death strengthen the Sansa/Littlefinger storyline? As far as I see it would weaken the storyline by removing one of the key thorns in Baelish's plot, which is that Sansa is technically still married and only the Faith can annul that but revealing her would attract a certain lioness's attention.

"Honeyed chicken" comes from a line in AGOT, Jon 1 where Jon slides half a chicken under the table to Ghost.

If Tyrion dies, that means there's only 2 people between Sansa/LF and Casterly Rock: Jamie is in the hands of Stoneheart - what are his odds of survival?? Cersei has no father or wise uncle to save her from her own folly.

If Tyrion dies at Meereen, Sansa's odds of becoming lady of Casterly Rock grow exponentially.

This intense WoW discussion is making me drool. When its released Im pretty sure ill seclude myself in a cave for 2 weeks :drool:

Move over!

I'll need space in the cave too. ;)

This should be the time for Tyrion to go, because:

- most readers don't expect Tyrion to die

Exactly.

That's the best reason to believe GRRM might do it.

Tyrion's death now is bad storytelling, so it won't happen.

The same reason why Jon is not dead or will be resurrected somehow.

Was Ned Stark's death bad story telling?

It not only cut the center out of the story, it deprived us of our main source of info into R+L=J. Which means GRRM created all that interest in the storyline then let it languish for about 3,600 pages and 4 books or more, supposedly till he brings Howland Reed out of hiding.

The only way to remember what happened wayyyyy back in AGOT is to obsessively keep referring back to those books. And in between it's like Waiting for Godot or something.

Hahaha, nope! Tyrion is no more dying during this battle than Jon is permanently dead.

You have clearly stated exactly why I think both those things will happen. Because you are so sure you know what will happen. Remember, GRRM hates that. He wants you to be surprised, shocked, even. So I always take that into account when thinking about the future of these characters.

I cant think of bigger taboo for this series than Tyrions death and maybe that of Daenerys. They might die, but at the very end of the series, otherwise books would be very hollow, no new character no matter what kind of "shadow" they cast cant replace those two.

The only death that would shock me more than Tyrions would be LFs.

And because Tyrion's death would be shocking and sad, I half expect it.

Imagine if GRRM drew up a list entitled, "Tyrion's death/removal from the story: pros/cons." Among the items: - free up some space to introduce Howland Reed; - spend more time with Bran & Coldhands, - Highgarden's battle against Euron; - Oldtown with Sam.

Tyrion has been hogging the limelight for 5 books now. It could be time for him to step aside and let someone else in.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If Victarion was going to die in Meereen GRRM would not have killed Groleo off, Victarion is the necessary conduit between the land and sea forces heading West.

Agree with you 100%. Once the dragon horn issue is resolved, the Iron Fleet is there to take Dany and her army back to Westeros.

[Pliskin]

Was Ned Stark's death bad story telling?

It not only cut the center out of the story, it deprived us of our main source of info into R+L=J. Which means GRRM created all that interest in the storyline then let it languish for about 3,600 pages and 4 books or more, supposedly till he brings Howland Reed out of hiding.

The only way to remember what happened wayyyyy back in AGOT is to obsessively keep referring back to those books. And in between it's like Waiting for Godot or something.

No, it was great storytelling.

Ned's entire storyline was built up exactly for this. For him dying like that. And starting the chaos and the war.

Tyrion's storyline and foreshadowing is not. We didn't follow him all that far for him dying in vain without accomplishing nothing.

Same for Jon and Dany.

The only death that would shock me more than Tyrions would be LFs.

And because Tyrion's death would be shocking and sad, I half expect it.

If you think that writing a good story lies only in the capacity of shocking the reader/viewer, then you're completely wrong.

And you're clearly underestimating GRRM if you think he would do anything to shock his readers, even if it's nonsense and a bad story.

[Colonel Green]

If Tyrion dies, that means there's only 2 people between Sansa/LF and Casterly Rock: Jamie is in the hands of Stoneheart - what are his odds of survival?? Cersei has no father or wise uncle to save her from her own folly.

If Tyrion dies at Meereen, Sansa's odds of becoming lady of Casterly Rock grow exponentially.

Um...no. If Tyrion is dead, Casterly Rock would pass to Kevan's remaining sons, or onward to another branch of the Lannisters (it's a big family).

[franko99]

He's read 2 Tyrion, 2 Barristan, 1 Arianne, and 1 Victarion. He has also confirmed 1 Theon, 1 Arya, 1 Sansa, 1 Aeron, and a 2nd Arianne before the one he read.

Actually we already have details of 2 different Arianne's chapters, one he read at a convention (Arianne arriving to the Stormlands), and another one he posted on his blog (leaving Dorne and saying goodbye to Doran, meeting a girl with profetic dreams about the Dance of the Dragons 2.0)

No, it was great storytelling.

Ned's entire storyline was built up exactly for this. For him dying like that. And starting the chaos and the war.

Tyrion's storyline and foreshadowing is not. We didn't follow him all that far for him dying in vain without accomplishing nothing.

Same for Jon and Dany.

If you think that writing a good story lies only in the capacity of shocking the reader/viewer, then you're completely wrong.

And you're clearly underestimating GRRM if you think he would do anything to shock his readers, even if it's nonsense and a bad story.

^^ :agree: this, some people think GRRM is just a huge troll whose only motivation is to "fuck" his readers. He's not, every single death (or shocking event) in the books has a good reason story wise, and was foreshadowed A LOT.

[koststerg]

Don't you think that things are going too easy for Dany's side? Also, although the battle is probably at its turning point (where all is won or lost and it seems they are winning) we still have not seen much fire. What kind of Battle of Fire is that? So, my theory is that the Battle of Fire has not started yet but it will start soon, once Victarion meets Baristan. He will ask to see Dany and Baristan will inform him dismissively that Dany is not here (he is not the best person to nagotiate with, espesially if he sees you as an outlow and a pirate). Victarion (not the best nagotiator also) will get mad and will use the horn. And then the Battle of Fire will start, meaning that we will witness how a small but determined army (Victarion's) in a possesion of a dragon can cause hauge damage in a much bigger and better trained army with Unsulled, merseneries, cavalry and fortifications in the city. What do you think?

[Newstar]

If Tyrion dies at Meereen, Sansa's odds of becoming lady of Casterly Rock grow exponentially.

Nope. Nice wishful thinking, though: 1) Tyrion's attainted, meaning he doesn't inherit squat, 2) Sansa and Tyrion have no children together at any rate, and Sansa can't become Lady of Casterly Rock in her own right, and 3) Casterly Rock passes to Kevan's sons, and failing them, to another branch of the Lannisters.

Exactly.

That's the best reason to believe GRRM might do it.

The other posters have correctly pointed that GRRM doesn't do things that are pointlessly shocking, especially where major characters are concerned. All major deaths are foreshadowed out the wazoo.

Was Ned Stark's death bad story telling?

No, it was perfect storytelling. The logical, compelling, tragic capper to Ned's AGOT arc that flowed perfectly from everything that came before.

Imagine if GRRM drew up a list entitled, "Tyrion's death/removal from the story: pros/cons." Among the items: - free up some space to introduce Howland Reed; - spend more time with Bran & Coldhands, - Highgarden's battle against Euron; - Oldtown with Sam.

Yeah, except GRRM loves Tyrion, probably more than any other character, and it shows. GRRM isn't going to draw up a pro/con list for killing off Tyrion any more than any other person would draw up a pro/con list for killing their child.

Tyrion has been hogging the limelight for 5 books now. It could be time for him to step aside and let someone else in.

Hahaha, nope! Tyrion hogs the limelight because that's right where GRRM wants him.

...And not to be snarky, but I have no idea how Tyrion managed to "hog the limelight" in AFFC, a book from which he was completely absent.