R+L = J v.109

[Ghost's Shadow]

Didn't Egg and his sons marry for love, and instead of making quick friends they made enemies (so not the daughters of higher lords)?

That leaves out a Stark, as there would be no shame in that.

[BearQueen87]

I think the other consideration, (within the context of this theory), is that as the Valaryians went from peaceful sheep herders to dragon lords, creating these bonds, it didn't likely happen with one shot or overnight.

I suspect its the same with the power of warging/skin changing.

(Native Americans call it "skin walking" and these beings are generally powerful shamans and evil).

What do we know of the origins of the power?

If we wish really hard, maybe it'll be in the World Book.....

I don't think that really matters, though...my point is that the text doesn't give us any evidence to support it. It's another case of finding a gap in the information in the text and inserting unsupported 'evidence' that supports their theory. Theories have to be supported by actual evidence in the text...they can't be proven by lack of evidence to the contrary. I could say that Ned became a masked superhero by night and ran around saving commoners from thieves, and there's technically nothing to contradict me...but that doesn't mean it's not a ludicrous theory.

LOL. I agree; I don't think there is any in-text evidence to suggest that Rhaegar would skinchange anyone and no evidence that he was gay.

In ADWD ch.48 we heard that the Blackwood feud with the Brackens goes back to when they were petty kings during the Age of Heroes 500 or 1000 years before the Andal invasion, so they have pretty solid First Man roots. We also get "House Blackwood kept the old gods, and worshiped as the First Men had in the days before the Andals came to Westeros."

I feel like that rather proves my point. Bloodraven's abilities came from his mother, someone who has strong First Men ties even though they are living south-ish.

[BearQueen87]

Didn't Egg and his sons marry for love, and instead of making quick friends they made enemies (so not the daughters of higher lords)?

That leaves out a Stark, as there would be no shame in that.

I agree. I think it's more likely that Jaehaerys II married someone of lower birth.

[Alia of the knife]

For many in the immediate Southron kingdoms , taking a Stark to wife might be the same as taking an "Outander," no matter how highborn they are.

It doesn't appear they hold the Dornish in high regard and consider them "foreigners."

The Starks are even more far removed.

I definitely speculate it was Lady Olenna that Prince Duncan dumped for Jenny.

But, it could be the Blackfyres tried to come back into the fold through marriage, but were scorned yet again.

Edit: It may be it was a Brightflame, or a Blackfyre thar Aerys sent Steffon Berantheon to find, but no suitable female was available.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

For many in the immediate Southron kingdoms , taking a Stark to wife might be the same as taking an "Outander," no matter how highborn they are.

It doesn't appear they hold the Dornish in high regard and consider them "foreigners."

The Starks are even more far removed.

I definitely speculate it was Lady Olenna that Prince Duncan dumped for Jenny.

I consider Olenna's story BS,i strongly suspect that it was Aerion's son who dumped Olenna rather than Duncan.

But, it could be the Blackfyres tried to come back into the fold through marriage, but were scorned yet again.

[BearQueen87]

For many in the immediate Southron kingdoms , taking a Stark to wife might be the same as taking an "Outander," no matter how highborn they are.

It doesn't appear they hold the Dornish in high regard and consider them "foreigners."

Bloody Sassenach's.

[Ghost's Shadow]

If they bent the knee without fighting, and are part of the Kingdom, they shouldn't be considered Outlanders.

Do we know of any bad words on the possible match of Robert and Lyanna but for Lyanna's own protests?

[Alia of the knife]

Bloody Sassenach's.

Exactly. Although in this regard, the Targaryens are the Sassenachs :)

(And I bet Patchface is as murderous as Twisty the Clown).

[BearQueen87]

Exactly. Although in this regard, the Targaryens are the Sassenachs :)

(And I bet Patchface is as murderous as Twisty the Clown).

OTT but SCARIEST CLOWN IN THE HISTORY OF CLOWNS. (and I hate ALL clowns but oh dear heaven...Twisty....)

[Stewed Singer]

I'm not sure if this passage has been noted, but in GOT when Robert and Ned discuss the parentage of Jon Snow, Ned's POV reaction is telling as Robert asks about Wylla. This passage follows after the Catelyn chapter with the Ashara Dayne reference and shows how quick Ned is to cut off those types of conversations. Also, the chapter contains a quick reference to how Ned has lived with his lies for 14 years and then has a Lyanna "Promise Me Ned" quote two paragraphs later.

[Alia of the knife]

OTT but SCARIEST CLOWN IN THE HISTORY OF CLOWNS. (and I hate ALL clowns but oh dear heaven...Twisty....)

My husband even had nightmares. If patchface can come close, I'll give the costume people perks, but check out the forum.:)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

But isn't the crowning at Harrenhall a tad suspicious as well? If he falls in love with her at Harrenhall because of her role in the KotLT, how the heck does he procure the very rare Winter Roses in time to crown her with them? At the Harrenhall gift shop?

The Harrenhall tournament was a set up to put Rhaegar in contact with Lyanna. One of his conspirators, Oswell, has his father put on the tournament to help Rhaegar come into contact with Lyanna. His boyfriend, err best friend, Arthur, lets Rhaegar win so he can crown her with the wreath of Winter Roses he conveniently has on hand.

The Harrenhal tourney is puzzling on multiple fronts. And it certainly seems possible that it was rigged for Rhaegar's victory. I've wondered about that ever since reading Selmy's reflection about Ashara, when he says something like "If I'd been a better knight, and unhorsed Rhaegar in that final tilt..." wondering how much death and tragedy could have been avoided. It's an odd bit of second-guessing from Ser Barristan, considering that he also views that tourney as "proof" that Rhaegar didn't fully trust him with his secrets.

The blue winter roses are also a great puzzle, in my view. Fresh flowers could not have been cut at Winterfell and shipped to Harrenhal for the tourney. They would have to be obtained locally. But if it's a winter bloom (as named), then the spring conditions (albeit "false") don't seem right anyway. If they were there they were there, I suppose. But it's curious to me that we only ever see the blue roses in memory and dream. Puts me in mind of Kipling's poem, for sure. Blue roses mean death...

[Kingmonkey]

I feel like that rather proves my point. Bloodraven's abilities came from his mother, someone who has strong First Men ties even though they are living south-ish.

Agreed. We've got a surprising amount of info about the history of the Blackwoods for pure background detail, which is always suspicious -- I think we're meant to read this into it.

I wonder if that mix of First Man and Targ blood in Bloodraven had a direct impact on R+L. I'm not sure if there was much direct connection between Rhaegar and Bloodraven, but we know that Rhaegar corresponded with Aemon, who went to the wall with Bloodraven. Could Bloodraven, through Aemon, have communicated some idea or interpretation of prophecy involving a mix of First Men & Targs to Rhaegar?

Further, does this relate in any way to the surprise marriage of your favourite bear and Lynesse Hightower? Jorah talks about how unexpected it was that Leyton agreed to their marriage -- maybe clever old Leyton, knowing that the Mormonts are an ancient northern family, was making a play of his own? The Hightowers seem to have been close to and intermarried with the Targs, and we know Lynesse looked very like Dany, so perhaps she has Targ blood. Food for thought, anyway.

[JonSnow4President]

So, now that I've gotten through a rough period at work (considered 9 an early night off for a time of the year that is supposed to be 9-5:30ish), I'm planning on starting my second read of the books, and I particularly wanted to focus and document/mark what I viewed as possible hints for R+L=J and King Snow/Stark/Targ/Starg.

For now, I'm thinking about buying some tabs, and then compiling them into my computer every so often. Do y'all have any tips for staying organized on the reading?

[sj4iy]

So, now that I've gotten through a rough period at work (considered 9 an early night off for a time of the year that is supposed to be 9-5:30ish), I'm planning on starting my second read of the books, and I particularly wanted to focus and document/mark what I viewed as possible hints for R+L=J and King Snow/Stark/Targ/Starg.

For now, I'm thinking about buying some tabs, and then compiling them into my computer every so often. Do y'all have any tips for staying organized on the reading?

I've given up on trying to find anything in the book version, so I got the pdfs and I highlight things in there. I also created a 'master sheet' with all of the quotes that I found important.

[Ygrain]

The Harrenhal tourney is puzzling on multiple fronts. And it certainly seems possible that it was rigged for Rhaegar's victory. I've wondered about that ever since reading Selmy's reflection about Ashara, when he says something like "If I'd been a better knight, and unhorsed Rhaegar in that final tilt..." wondering how much death and tragedy could have been avoided. It's an odd bit of second-guessing from Ser Barristan, considering that he also views that tourney as "proof" that Rhaegar didn't fully trust him with his secrets.

The blue winter roses are also a great puzzle, in my view. Fresh flowers could not have been cut at Winterfell and shipped to Harrenhal for the tourney. They would have to be obtained locally. But if it's a winter bloom (as named), then the spring conditions (albeit "false") don't seem right anyway. If they were there they were there, I suppose. But it's curious to me that we only ever see the blue roses in memory and dream. Puts me in mind of Kipling's poem, for sure. Blue roses mean death...

It wasn't rigged. There is a parallel between Jorah and Rhaegar in their motivation to win.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It wasn't rigged. There is a parallel between Jorah and Rhaegar in their motivation to win.

Or... Rhaegar could have always win easily any tourney he wanted but he didn't want to (something like Dash at the end if The Incredibles, when he's ok with being second place). Remember that aspect of being a prince it was something he never really liked, apparently; and considering he was rather a quiet man, he was ok. with some other taking the glory.

Except in Harrenhall. There he was all "move away, fuckers, I have to crown someone!!".

[sj4iy]

It wasn't rigged. There is a parallel between Jorah and Rhaegar in their motivation to win.

^Exactly. We know that Selmy was trying to win, and that he definitely didn't throw the match. Even if some of them had agreed beforehand (which I doubt), that doesn't mean Rhaegar would automatically win. He had to get through the men who most definitely weren't in on the fix. Which is why I believe Rhaegar was simply driven by love in the same way Jorah was.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Something I've wondered about the tourney:

I think by then that Rhaegar and Lyanna had already met, when Rhaegar crossed paths with the KotLT. I think him giving her the laurel was less about him gaga in love with her at that point and more about him tipping his hat to the KotLT and paying honor to Lyanna's skill the only way he knew how. Might he have been smitten then, sure. But I really do think the KotLT thing was primary motivation for him giving her the laurel.

Having said that, I've also wondered if the winner's laurel just happened to be the blue roses, or if Rhaegar explicitly asked that those flowers make up the laurel. All QoLaB's get a laurel, but it's unclear if the laurel is always the blue roses or if just Lyanna's was. Given Rhaegar's experience as a singer and a musician, it seems likely that he was aware of the Bael story and as such, it leads me to think that the laurel was specifically ordered by him, as opposed to being a mere thematic coincidence.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Something I've wondered about the tourney:

I think by then that Rhaegar and Lyanna had already met, when Rhaegar crossed paths with the KotLT. I think him giving her the laurel was less about him gaga in love with her at that point and more about him tipping his hat to the KotLT and paying honor to Lyanna's skill the only way he knew how. Might he have been smitten then, sure. But I really do think the KotLT thing was primary motivation for him giving her the laurel.

Having said that, I've also wondered if the winner's laurel just happened to be the blue roses, or if Rhaegar explicitly asked that those flowers make up the laurel. All QoLaB's get a laurel, but it's unclear if the laurel is always the blue roses or if just Lyanna's was. Given Rhaegar's experience as a singer and a musician, it seems likely that he was aware of the Bael story and as such, it leads me to think that the laurel was specifically ordered by him, as opposed to being a mere thematic coincidence.

But would there have been time to order such a laurel made? The tourney only lasted ten days, after all..