Help a writer - by using your awesome knowledge of fantasy

[HexMachina]

So much good stuff in one thread, can't breathe ...

Sent you a PM.

This is a very conscious decision; Danish young adults (and even adult readers) are not as likely to have heard of upcoming or obscure UK/US writers even if they are nerds. That said, I'm making sure there are references at different levels so there's something for everyone; in particular I'm going to start out with pretty mainstream references to establish the gimmick, then widen the field as the story progresses and the reader catches on.

I became aware of LG's series after I started writing mine, but I'm fine with it given that the books are in different languages. Actually, the inspiration for the gimmick came from "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao", which isn't fantasy and doesn't use fantasy references in any constructive way, but where the main character becomes enamored with the genre as a form of escapism, and where there's the occasional reference to Dragonlance and Magic cards.

Thanks for the help so far, and feel free to keep 'em coming. I'll be back with more requests.

There are quite a few Danes on this board I believe, so I'm not entirely sure that is ture

[Nymeria10k]

What about the Mortal Instruments series? It has angels in it (and is centered around that sort of thing I think) and has 5 members exactly if I'm not wrong (Clary, Simon, Jace, Isabel, Alec) maybe I've missed someone out idk but they're the main 5

And it's popular enough for people to understand references from it

[denstorebog]

There are quite a few Danes on this board I believe, so I'm not entirely sure that is ture

Ah yeah, I didn't mean to imply I live in a country of fantasy illiterates. Lots of adult Danes have jumped onto the ASOIAF wagon and are voracious consumers of English fantasy - in fact so much that they completely neglect Danish fantasy, which actually prevents me from venturing into adult fantasy :( . But these books are for 12-16 year olds, and they largely read only what has been translated into Danish (the jump to English typically happens around 20). Therefore I want to start out by referencing only fantasy that is mainstream enough to have been translated into Danish. This is still a lot of material, though - all the classics and lots of popular modern fantasy. And as mentioned, as the series progresses, I can allow myself to become even more obscure, knowing that the reader has caught on to the gimmick.

What about the Mortal Instruments series? It has angels in it (and is centered around that sort of thing I think) and has 5 members exactly if I'm not wrong (Clary, Simon, Jace, Isabel, Alec) maybe I've missed someone out idk but they're the main 5

And it's popular enough for people to understand references from it

It is a perfect example of what would work. It's already a popular hit with my audience, and most will know it at least by name.

[Eponine]

I became aware of LG's series after I started writing mine, but I'm fine with it given that the books are in different languages. Actually, the inspiration for the gimmick came from "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao", which isn't fantasy and doesn't use fantasy references in any constructive way, but where the main character becomes enamored with the genre as a form of escapism, and where there's the occasional reference to Dragonlance and Magic cards.

And LotR and Dr. Who and The Stand and some animes.

I'm not trying to be prematurely critical, but I just read Oscar Wao and pretty much hated the gimmick. I had to force myself to finish the book. I hope you don't mind if I say what I thought wasn't effective, while understanding that I'm probably NOT the target audience for geeky references.

One thing that didn't work for me was that it felt like a blatant string of pandering name-dropping instead of seeming like anything that a real person would say or think. It felt like something that the author was remembering to do, instead of like something that was coming organically in the narrator's thoughts. MUST SHOEHORN REFERENCE HERE.

Another thing that didn't work for me was that it pulled me right out of the story when the analogy or parallel wasn't one that I knew about (which was often, since I don't watch TV or read superhero comics), but it was clearly meant to be wink, wink, nudge, nudge. IMO, if I'm fond of a story enough, I don't mind it being recapped in a conversation, even if it's something I already know, allowing any reader to understand what's going on. And I'm not going to be upset if I miss subtle references that I don't know about. So for me, either a good explanation or a quiet parallel works, but something like - Trujillo's right hand man was like Sauron's lieutenant - makes me facepalm. I know that some people find that these analogies made the story more vivid, but I found it obnoxious and exclusionary. Again, not trying to tell you how to write, this is just how I felt about using SFF references.

[denstorebog]

And LotR and Dr. Who and The Stand and some animes.

I'm not trying to be prematurely critical, but I just read Oscar Wao and pretty much hated the gimmick. I had to force myself to finish the book. I hope you don't mind if I say what I thought wasn't effective, while understanding that I'm probably NOT the target audience for geeky references.

One thing that didn't work for me was that it felt like a blatant string of pandering name-dropping instead of seeming like anything that a real person would say or think. It felt like something that the author was remembering to do, instead of like something that was coming organically in the narrator's thoughts. MUST SHOEHORN REFERENCE HERE.

Another thing that didn't work for me was that it pulled me right out of the story when the analogy or parallel wasn't one that I knew about (which was often, since I don't watch TV or read superhero comics), but it was clearly meant to be wink, wink, nudge, nudge. IMO, if I'm fond of a story enough, I don't mind it being recapped in a conversation, even if it's something I already know, allowing any reader to understand what's going on. And I'm not going to be upset if I miss subtle references that I don't know about. So for me, either a good explanation or a quiet parallel works, but something like - Trujillo's right hand man was like Sauron's lieutenant - makes me facepalm. I know that some people find that these analogies made the story more vivid, but I found it obnoxious and exclusionary. Again, not trying to tell you how to write, this is just how I felt about using SFF references.

No, that's absolutely fine. References can make the author stand out in a story where you want the author to be invisible. In Oscar Wao, though, I liked it particularly because the story is quite serious and the literary quality is quite high (in my opinion), so it's the last place you'd expect to learn that the main character identifies with Raistlin or see similar references to pulp fantasy.

In this story, I'm trying it out as a way to engage a relatively young audience through their existing knowledge. Even though it is inspired by Oscar Wao, I'd say that the effect I'm aiming for is somewhat more akin to "Ready Player One", which tries to create a sense of connection between writer and reader through a shared background and taste in genre. Secondarily, it's a method for dealing with a clichés; if something happens and the reader thinks it seems a bit too familiar, chances are that Ty will have picked up on it too.

In any case, it's not as frequently used as this thread might make it seem. References are probably made every 100 pages on average or so.

[SpaceChampion]

I've thought about doing this sort of thing for my science fiction series I'm working on, but only in reference to technologies or ideas established in the genre. For example, a thousand years from now, if people are Uplifting animals to sapient intelligence, I'd refer to it as Uplift and not make up some other term, and characters who know the origin of the term would credit David Brin (though most will likely not know the origin).

[maarsen]

Try referencing Zelazny's Amber series. Lots of combos throughout the series,

[JonArryn]

Sounds like a great idea.

Have you read Thomas Covenant? The only time he meets the villain is in the third book (of the 1st chronicles) but the villain is quite important. Seems like you could use some Covenant references though, since he's also transported to a magic land, although the main thing with him is that he don't know if it is real or not.

May I ask if you make good money being a YA author? I'm swedish and our countries are pretty similar regarding the fantasy market, and it's pretty non-existant for swedish fantasy writers.

Do you make a living on it or do you need another job as well? Annoying to hear you can't write adult fantasy though. But i guess thats the way a market works.

I for one would have loved to be tv or movie writer but know that that education is useless to read here because we have no real market for screenwriters.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Sounds like a great idea.

Have you read Thomas Covenant? The only time he meets the villain is in the third book (of the 1st chronicles) but the villain is quite important. Seems like you could use some Covenant references though, since he's also transported to a magic land, although the main thing with him is that he don't know if it is real or not.

May I ask if you make good money being a YA author? I'm swedish and our countries are pretty similar regarding the fantasy market, and it's pretty non-existant for swedish fantasy writers.

Do you make a living on it or do you need another job as well? Annoying to hear you can't write adult fantasy though. But i guess thats the way a market works.

I for one would have loved to be tv or movie writer but know that that education is useless to read here because we have no real market for screenwriters.

Covenant also meets Foul in the first book (where he is told to carry the little message).

I don't think the Covenant books fit any of the requirements though: there is never a group of five or three (two and four and six, yes). There are no inns, angels or dying gods. Foul really is the enemy all along, and so on. The only possibility is Covenant being more self-confident when he returns to our world, but even that's a stretch for the criteria.

Authors as a general rule have day jobs. It is not a lucrative profession, and only a small handful enjoy sufficient sales to make a living off it.

[denstorebog]

May I ask if you make good money being a YA author? I'm swedish and our countries are pretty similar regarding the fantasy market, and it's pretty non-existant for swedish fantasy writers.

Do you make a living on it or do you need another job as well? Annoying to hear you can't write adult fantasy though. But i guess thats the way a market works.

Having only three books out (plus an adult mystery novel from 2006) so far, the answer is no. Actually, my main income as a writer at this point comes from the libraries. Not sure how that works in Sweden (I'm guessing similarly), but the annual fee they pay for having my books on their shelves is pretty significant (around 15% of the income I require annually). If the next series goes through, that number would probably rise to 30% over the next years. That's still quite a way from the coveted 100%, though

Actual book sales are pretty insignificant in comparison at this point. It takes a couple of years for a YA novel from an unknown writer to sell enough to profit. As my name becomes more recognized over the years (hopefully), sales will start playing a bigger role next to the library fees.

[Serious Callers Only]

Thieves world centers around a 'bar'. It might function as a inn sometimes, i can't remember.

If you search for covers of 'Thieves world' in google images you'll see this:

http://www.alice-dsl.net/aymar/Reviews/Cover%20Artists_Walter%20Velez/Thieves%20World%2004%20-%20Storm%20Season_ACE_Walter%20Velez.jpg

or this

http://img1.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/t0/t4123.jpg

or this

http://irontavern.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/thieves_world_boxed_cover.jpg

Merovingen nights has a the 'Angel with a sword' but the actual angel is

1: a statue

2: the book is actually science fiction although the people in it live in a 15th century venice pastiche.

I'm missing alot. Another science 'angel' society occurs in Elizabeth Bear Jacobs Ladder series. Tim Powers The Stress of Her Regard / Hide me among the graves has Lamias masquerading as angles iirc ?

Oh right Steph Swainston has her drug addicted 'angel' (a species actually) courier in the Castle series.

Similarly there is a angel species in the Cast series by Michelle West

The satanic verses by Rushdie ofc.

That london urban fantasy with the mindhive 'blue electric angels' (aka not angels) that live on the communication lines, can't remember the author

Sexualized angels (well, historically anyway, we only ever see one and he wasn't thinking of nookie) appear in the Kushiel series.

Christopher Moore - The stupidest angel. Yeah

The uncompleted Sun Sword series by Michelle West again appears to be about killing the evil god of the place and setting his daughter as the heir (apparently, because this is never spelled out and the presence of a god of evil is prob necessary to keep the dammed in hell). A god dies regularly and is reborn - the 'hunter' god (it's the plot of a series within the universe). There are countless examples of a god dying being reborn or just leaving in fantasy so it's not like you're in a jam here.

About revelations of evil, the first that comes to mind if Blood Song but that is too recent and not exactly inconsequential. I'm sure there are many others.

The hidden villain page of wikitropes has some tentative suggestions. The best is probably Warbreaker by Sanderson or Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. Some other linked pages in the the trope categories further down may be helpful.

[Leofric]

Added a few

Let the games begin!

#1: Example of fantasy literature that centers around a party/fellowship of exactly 5 members. (The party doesn't have to have exactly 5 members at all times, but should at least consist of 5 members to begin with.)

The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay is about 5 college students that get transported to a fantasy world.

The Guardian of the Flames series by Joel Rosenberg is similar about a group (think 7 initially) of D&D type college students get transported into a fantasy world and save world from slavery

#2: Same as above, but with exactly 3 members. (I'm already referencing Harry Potter since he, Ron and Hermione form a central group despite having lots of groupies along for the ride.)

#3: Example of fantasy literature where an inn is central or catalyst to the plot. Bonus points if the inn has a name. (Example: The Inn Of The Last Home in Dragonlance: Chronicles.)

Spider Robinson's Callahan books all center around a bar, a bit more science fiction than fantasy

#4: Example of fantasy literature where angels play a central role

Alan Campbell's Deepgate Codex starting with Scar Night

#5: Example of fantasy literature where a god is killed or has died

Brian Ruckley's The Godless World Books

#6: Example of fantasy literature where the true evil / antagonist reveals him/her/itself late in the story, and the presumed ditto turns out to be of less importance than expected.

#7: Example of fantasy literature where, upon returning home near the end, the protagonist discovers that the home has undergone a change / something unexpected has happened there (Frodo and his friends realizing that Bag End will always be different to them is an example)

Back to the Future ;)

Remember, the more famous/popular the material, the better, but obscure is better than nothing.

[lady narcissa]

Since a few other people have mentioned some more science fiction related works I'll add A Wrinkle in Time, A Wind in the Door, and A Swiftly Tilting Planet by Madeleine L'Engle. The first two books involve a trio. The last book more significantly involves one of the trio but the other two are there. But the last book deals with the main character intentionally traveling through time to change events so at the end of the book the world is different than it was at the beginning of the book.

A fourth book by L'Engle , Man Waters, is sometimes included with the above three to be sold as a quartet. It involves twin brothers of the original trio (who were side characters in the trilogy) and they travel back to the time of Noah's Ark and there are seraphim and nephilim in the story.

[HexMachina]

I've remembered a trilogy with a similar kind of concept that I read as a child. The details are very hazy, but from what I recall there was a main character who was a mythology nut and in each of the books he ended up being transported into a "game" designed by someone based on a certain mythology (iirc there was Greek, Vampire and Norse). Is this a similar idea to yours (minus the game and whatnot)?

EDIT: Dont remember what the books were called. I kniw I cant have liked them too much though, since they seem to have been among the few I've thrown away

[Esa1996]

#1: Example of fantasy literature that centers around a party/fellowship of exactly 5 members. (The party doesn't have to have exactly 5 members at all times, but should at least consist of 5 members to begin with.)

This was the plan in the first Wheel of Time book. In the end their group however, grew by a few members.

#3: Example of fantasy literature where an inn is central or catalyst to the plot. Bonus points if the inn has a name. (Example: The Inn Of The Last Home in Dragonlance: Chronicles.)

Malazan Book of the Fallen I: Gardens of the Moon

#5: Example of fantasy literature where a god is killed or has died

Malazan Book of the Fallen

[Serious Callers Only]

I also just remembered that poul anderson short stories had a 'phoenix tavern' that was used a short stories hook. They form a sort of sequence: http://poulandersonappreciation.blogspot.pt/2012/09/the-old-phoenix-sequence.html

[Weeping Sore]

Sci-fi, not fantasy, but Neon Genesis Evangelion has a very interesting take on angels.

[TheRevanchist]

Mistborn perfectly satisfies point 5 and 6. The Kingkiller Chronicles satisfies point 3.

And to a degree, The Wheel of Time: The Eye of the World satisfies Point 1, although the party is actually 5 protagonists and 2 mentors of them.

[denstorebog]

I'm resurrecting this thread with a follow-up question, since the last batch of answers was really helpful.

1. Name some works of fantasy in which a main character or a villain aspires to ascend to godhood but fails (Example: Raistlin Majere in Dragonlance).

[Zoë Sumra]

If you haven't read Neverwhere, it ticks a lot of your boxes. Angels, the main character going home at the end but finds things aren't the same (twist on this, in that it's him who's changed), central party of three (Door, the Marquis and Richard) plus groupies, and a villain revealed late on.