Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part III: ASoS & ADwD

[Parwan]

Parwan, I imagine that Ser Jorah is arguing, in effect, to ditch the freed slaves, and live off the land as they march Westwards. That might work. They might well find enough supplies on the way to feed 8,000 Unsullied. They would be abandoning the freedmen to death or re-enslavement, however.

The matter can be rationalized in this way. This could get GRRM off the hook, but not the queen's advisers. For one thing, Jorah should have been more explicit in his advice. More importantly, no one even mentions the phrase, "Demon Road" in the debate about whether to attack Meereen. The route certainly seems to be fraught with dangers, probably not all of them physical. I don't see how Dany's army was prepared for the march. I don't see how she could have prepared them for something of which she was not even made aware.

Thinking through the logistics, I think she could have got the Unsullied and the sellswords through to Volantis. Xenophon's Anabasis, Young Cato's march up the North African coast, the Crusaders' march through Anatolia, are all evidence that an army can march through very harsh terrain, so long as they're well-prepared, well-led, and go swiftly. Dany could have confiscated the freed

slaves' livestock, plundered the countryside around Meereen, and been on her way. Cities along the way could have been sacked, threatened, or bought off. Almost certainly, that's what Ser Jorah had in mind.

But, it would have meant abandoning the freed slaves. They would have died like flies along the way. There's no way they could be fed or protected. And,

that would have made the decisions she took in the last two chapters pretty pointless.

I see no possibility that Dany's army could have been well prepared for the march. Dany says, "Ser Jorah, you say we have no food left." This statement should be taken at face value. No food means no food. Why then aren't the Unsullied hungry already? As I said, they are tough, but they aren't made of clay. Starting a demanding expedition into unknown territory with an already hungry army is inadvisable. What is particularly objectionable is not that these are tough problems. The fact is that the problems aren't even being properly considered. Exactly how could the countryside around Meereen have been plundered? Surely the slavers burned things on all sides of their city. Perhaps Dany's forces could have ranged into the further hills and found adequate food. How is it possible, however, for them to have found food adequate for a long march but not adequate for a siege? Obviously, neither Jorah nor anyone else has made a good estimate of how much food is available or how hard it will be to acquire such food.

Jorah also says, "the way across the Lands of the Long Summer is long and grueling, and there are dangers we cannot know." How does one prepare for dangers that one cannot even identify?

The main point is that Dany got bad advice here.

And we still have to deal with the business about leaving enemies in your rear in fortified positions with ports. This has to be considered because--

...

Meereen on the other hand is a much tougher nut to crack. They treat Dany as an existential threat and have pulled all the stops to make a long and bitter fight out of it. They have retreated behind their walls, deprived Dany of any resource that would allow her to besiege them for any period of time and are defying her to her face.

...

These are very important points, especially the bolded ones. Slavery is an important institution in Essos. Dany and her advisers should assume widespread hostility in the lands through which they are going to travel. It is exceedingly unlikely that only the Meereenese will view her as an existential threat. If the Meereenese can defeat her by depriving her of resources, then the default assumption should be that the enemies she will encounter will also employ this tactic. The Meereenese didn't just show themselves to be cruel. There was a clear message in the way they displayed the crucified children: Bring it on, bitch. We're ready for you. If she marches away, they will view themselves as successful. If they view themselves as successful, why wouldn't they take further steps to destroy a woman and an army that they and others view as an existential threat?

And the Unsullied should not be viewed as unbeatable. What sort of cavalry would Dany have on her long march? Essentially none, I'd say. There aren't any sellsword voices advising her to bypass Meereen, are there? Daario Naharis is very taken with the dragon queen, but he's the only one. His men like him, but in the way that mercenaries always like their leaders. They think he can make them wealthy. If the decision is made to abandon a rich prize and go marching down the Demon Road, how many of these men will go along? I doubt that any will. More likely, they will look for ways to turn a profit by turning the queen over to her enemies.

Great generals like Napoleon could sometimes bypass fortified positions to attack enemy armies. Such generals, however, knew the land, their armies, and their enemies very well. The queen does not have this knowledge. She could wind up facing scorched earth in front of her and denuded earth behind her. If Dany had marched down the Demon road, she likely would have wound up like Napoleon--Napoleon in Moscow.

[Mithras]

Paper Weaver quote;

I think Viserion's attitude here is generally misunderstood, by Dany most of all. Viserion is the most clever dragon and what he liked here is Brown Ben's plan to infiltrate Mereen, not his person. I don't think he has a fondness to BBP, given that the guy is a scum who turns his cloak so easily. We know that Drogon was able to sense deception and treachery in HotU. Why should Viserion sympathize with a turncloak?

See I disagree with you on this, Viserion likes BBP because he shares so much blood with Dany. He is the only person the Dragons have ever met who shares blood with Dany, and they immediately show that they like him, they cuddle up to him twice IIRC. It is quite possible that Ossifer Plumm had Ben with a straight up Targ Princess, we dont know which one, but it could have easily been an off shoot of Rhae or Daella, Mantarys or Valarr Targaryen , there are possibilities as well for the mother in characters we have not yet learned the names of. But if his mother was a Targ and Tyrion suggests he has 2 Targ family members, which means there was Targ on his fathers side as well....... I dont see how anyone could argue that this is not the reason the Dragons like him. It is spelled out fairly clearly if you ask me. And BBP's Targ ancestry is mentioned at least 3 times in DwD, I think that mixed with the dragons 'liking him' is what GRRM would call a 'blatant hint'.

Quentyn more or less had the same amount of dragon blood with BBP. Neither Viserion nor Rhaegal cuddled him. Also I remember only one instance with BBP and Viserion.

I think the mention of BBP's Targ ancestry might be due to Tyrion having the same ancestry as well. GRRM is definitely preparing something with the Plumm history and Eleana Targaryen. But I doubt he will give BBP a dragon. More like he is preparing him for a terrible disappoinment. Tyrion will trick him into mounting Viserion and he will be dragon food.

[SeanF]

The matter can be rationalized in this way. This could get GRRM off the hook, but not the queen's advisers. For one thing, Jorah should have been more explicit in his advice. More importantly, no one even mentions the phrase, "Demon Road" in the debate about whether to attack Meereen. The route certainly seems to be fraught with dangers, probably not all of them physical. I don't see how Dany's army was prepared for the march. I don't see how she could have prepared them for something of which she was not even made aware.

I see no possibility that Dany's army could have been well prepared for the march. Dany says, "Ser Jorah, you say we have no food left." This statement should be taken at face value. No food means no food. Why then aren't the Unsullied hungry already? As I said, they are tough, but they aren't made of clay. Starting a demanding expedition into unknown territory with an already hungry army is inadvisable. What is particularly objectionable is not that these are tough problems. The fact is that the problems aren't even being properly considered. Exactly how could the countryside around Meereen have been plundered? Surely the slavers burned things on all sides of their city. Perhaps Dany's forces could have ranged into the further hills and found adequate food. How is it possible, however, for them to have found food adequate for a long march but not adequate for a siege? Obviously, neither Jorah nor anyone else has made a good estimate of how much food is available or how hard it will be to acquire such food.

Jorah also says, "the way across the Lands of the Long Summer is long and grueling, and there are dangers we cannot know." How does one prepare for dangers that one cannot even identify?

The main point is that Dany got bad advice here.

And we still have to deal with the business about leaving enemies in your rear in fortified positions with ports. This has to be considered because--

These are very important points, especially the bolded ones. Slavery is an important institution in Essos. Dany and her advisers should assume widespread hostility in the lands through which they are going to travel. It is exceedingly unlikely that only the Meereenese will view her as an existential threat. If the Meereenese can defeat her by depriving her of resources, then the default assumption should be that the enemies she will encounter will also employ this tactic. The Meereenese didn't just show themselves to be cruel. There was a clear message in the way they displayed the crucified children: Bring it on, bitch. We're ready for you. If she marches away, they will view themselves as successful. If they view themselves as successful, why wouldn't they take further steps to destroy a woman and an army that they and others view as an existential threat?

And the Unsullied should not be viewed as unbeatable. What sort of cavalry would Dany have on her long march? Essentially none, I'd say. There aren't any sellsword voices advising her to bypass Meereen, are there? Daario Naharis is very taken with the dragon queen, but he's the only one. His men like him, but in the way that mercenaries always like their leaders. They think he can make them wealthy. If the decision is made to abandon a rich prize and go marching down the Demon Road, how many of these men will go along? I doubt that any will. More likely, they will look for ways to turn a profit by turning the queen over to her enemies.

Great generals like Napoleon could sometimes bypass fortified positions to attack enemy armies. Such generals, however, knew the land, their armies, and their enemies very well. The queen does not have this knowledge. She could wind up facing scorched earth in front of her and denuded earth behind her. If Dany had marched down the Demon road, she likely would have wound up like Napoleon--Napoleon in Moscow.

Certainly, taking Meereen (if it can be done) is the better option. Then, one can decide whether to march on or stay.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I wanted to point out a few things at the end of the chapter;

We see Dany's bond with her dragons is growing stronger all the time.

I was going to take you home! Her dragons sensed her fury. Viserion roared, and smoke rose grey from his snout. Drogon beat the air with black wings, and Rhaegal twisted his head back and belched flame............ Drogon screamed, lashing his tail back and forth.

Also Here we see Dany exercising massive self control, nothing like her father would have done, nor like what Cersei does everyday across the Narrow Sea. Sure Dany has these extreme violent thoughts, but she decides against them. I think this shows how grown up she really is, she is not impulsive, she does not make decisions based on emotion. She is perfectly able to control herself and shows no signs of 'madness'. First she thinks about letting her dragons roast both of them, but she doesnt. Then she almost tells them that she will have their heads next time she sees them and doesnt. I think many kings/rulers/dragonlords in her position would not have exercised caution in this instance, she discovered her 2 most trusted advisors have been lying to her, you can tell how mad she is by the dragons reaction, but still she controls herself.

belched flame. I should say the word and burn the two of them. Was there no one she could trust, no one to keep her safe? "Are all the knights in Westeros so false as you two? Get out, before my dragons roast you both. What does roast liar smell like? As foul as Brown Ben's sewers? Go!

Ser Barristan rose stiff and slow. for the first time, he looked his age. "Where shall we go, Your Grace?"

"To hell, to serve King Robert." Dany felt hot tears on her cheeks, Drogon screamed, lashing his tail back and forth. "The Others can have you both." Go, go away forever, both of you, the next tie I see your faces I'll have your traitors heads off. She could not say the words......

She is always thinking, always considering what she should do, she is not a rash girl at all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Quentyn more or less had the same amount of dragon blood with BBP. Neither Viserion nor Rhaegal cuddled him. Also I remember only one instance with BBP and Viserion.

I think the mention of BBP's Targ ancestry might be due to Tyrion having the same ancestry as well. GRRM is definitely preparing something with the Plumm history and Eleana Targaryen. But I doubt he will give BBP a dragon. More like he is preparing him for a terrible disappoinment. Tyrion will trick him into mounting Viserion and he will be dragon food.

I think the family trees are not as similar as you think.

Quentyn has dragon blood from how many generations back? I know it's not his parents grandparents or great grandparents that are Targs (as Lewyn Martell did not have Targ parents). So the most he could be is 1/16th or less, I think it's much less, I think his Targ connection is the 1st Daenerys, and she was like 6 generations back in the Martell family tree, which would make Quentyn have like 1/64th dragon blood, which is basically nothing. While BBP probably has Targ from both of his grandparents on his fathers side, Ossifer PLumm married a full-targ princess, of course we dont have a Plumm family tree, so we dont know how far back it is. But I seriously doubt Tyrions comments are a throw away.

In Storm we have the incident in the tent where Viserion cuddles to BBP and Dany mentions it (sorry I dont have the quote on hand). And he is the only person Dany has ever mentioned that her Dragons specifically like and want to be around.

Then we have Tyrion's comments when they finally meet for the first time;

"HOuse PLumm is sworn to Casterly Rock, and as it happens I know a bit of its history. YOur branch sprouted from a stone spit across the narrow sea, no doubt. a Younger son of Viserys PLumm, I'd wager. The queen's dragons were fond of you, were they not?"

That seemed to amuse the sellsword. "Who told you that?"

"NO one. Most of stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies as bis as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes....nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."

"My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood."

"Two Drops. That, or a cock six feet long."

So there's that, plus Tyrion is saying he knew the dragons took to BBP. No one told him, he just knew. He knows more about BBP's ancestry than BBP does himself. I guarantee Tyrion is going to bring this up in his next WoW chapter. I personally believe in A+J=T. So it would make sense that these 2 with all their dragonblood are headed to help the wounded Viserion and that Tyrion will be the rider. that is my predictions for early WoW

[Nictarion]

Quentyn more or less had the same amount of dragon blood with BBP. Neither Viserion nor Rhaegal cuddled him.

He did pretty much have Viserion before Rhaegal roasted him though.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I agree with Parwan I think Jorah's advice was bad and it seems to me he was just trying to rush Dany out of Meereen as soon as possible.

“As Aegon did,” Ser Jorah said, “with fire. By the time we reach the Seven Kingdoms, your dragons will be grown. And we will have siege towers and trebuchets as well, all the things we lack here . . .

Jorah doesn't go into detail as to how Dany will get siege towers and trebuchets, he sounds just like a parent trying to trick their child into eating veggies, in this case he is just trying to convince Dany to leave Meereen as soon as possible and not really advising her.

With respect to the chapter, there was some imagery I took note of.

Her thoughts were spinning in circles, like a rat chasing its tail. Suddenly she could not stand the close confines of the pavilion another moment. I want to feel the wind on my face, and smell the sea.

Wind is a strong symbol of freedom within Dany's arc especially since she is called Stormborn, starting from day one when Drogo gave her the filly and she stated he had given her the "wind", this was the beginning of her breaking the chain that Visery's had bounded to her.

We also saw in the very first chapter of ASOS the strong imagery of freedom with respect to the sea and wind.

She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she’d watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. “You are blood of the dragon,” he had screamed at her. “A dragon, not some smelly fish.”

.

It is also noted in future chapters such as Dany X in ADWD when she recalls the flight with Drogon. This where Dany feels at home and I believe it shows again that she is not the traditional Queen that sits in court but more of a Khaleesi/ Nymeria type of figure.

I also believe symbolically this also shows Dany wasn't "free" in Meereen as she was confined in the pyramid, and Drogon actually freed her.

snip

Great example, I agree. She only makes emotional decisions when it comes to her "children" being harmed, other then that she thinks twice.

[Fire Eater]

So there's that, plus Tyrion is saying he knew the dragons took to BBP. No one told him, he just knew. He knows more about BBP's ancestry than BBP does himself. I guarantee Tyrion is going to bring this up in his next WoW chapter. I personally believe in A+J=T. So it would make sense that these 2 with all their dragonblood are headed to help the wounded Viserion and that Tyrion will be the rider. that is my predictions for early WoW

I don't believe in A+J=T, I think there is simply nothing to back it. I think it is much more likely that Tyrion and Plumm share the same ancestor, Elaena Targaryen. Lords tend to marry within their regions, and Plumm's kids would have made very desirable brides and grooms. They could have married into other Westerland houses that later married into House Lannister. I agree with Paper Weaver on that.

On a sidenote, taking Meereen seems like the best option, and Dany shows her ingenuity with limited resources. Brown Ben's plan seems plausible, infiltrating the city through the sewers. Many fortified cities and castles throughout history had been taken by infiltration. The main goal was to send an elite force to open the gates to let the main army through.

[Parwan]

I wanted to point out a few things at the end of the chapter;

We see Dany's bond with her dragons is growing stronger all the time.

I was going to take you home! Her dragons sensed her fury. Viserion roared, and smoke rose grey from his snout. Drogon beat the air with black wings, and Rhaegal twisted his head back and belched flame............ Drogon screamed, lashing his tail back and forth.

Also Here we see Dany exercising massive self control, nothing like her father would have done, nor like what Cersei does everyday across the Narrow Sea. Sure Dany has these extreme violent thoughts, but she decides against them. I think this shows how grown up she really is, she is not impulsive, she does not make decisions based on emotion. She is perfectly able to control herself and shows no signs of 'madness'. First she thinks about letting her dragons roast both of them, but she doesnt. Then she almost tells them that she will have their heads next time she sees them and doesnt. I think many kings/rulers/dragonlords in her position would not have exercised caution in this instance, she discovered her 2 most trusted advisors have been lying to her, you can tell how mad she is by the dragons reaction, but still she controls herself.

...

She is always thinking, always considering what she should do, she is not a rash girl at all.

I don't think that Dany is crazy, and I don't think she's going crazy. She has some ability to control her emotions. That doesn't mean that she never makes decisions based fundamentally on emotion. I'd say that her rejection of slavery was based primarily on an emotional reaction. That doesn't make it bad, but there are problems with it. Dany, to this point, appears to have problems with long term planning. There are characters who are better at analyzing things carefully.

I agree with Parwan I think Jorah's advice was bad and it seems to me he was just trying to rush Dany out of Meereen as soon as possible.

“As Aegon did,” Ser Jorah said, “with fire. By the time we reach the Seven Kingdoms, your dragons will be grown. And we will have siege towers and trebuchets as well, all the things we lack here . . .

Jorah doesn't go into detail as to how Dany will get siege towers and trebuchets, he sounds just like a parent trying to trick their child into eating veggies, in this case he is just trying to convince Dany to leave Meereen as soon as possible and not really advising her.

...

Yes, I think Jorah was too focused on the "Let's go to Westeros" idea. In his defense, and in Dany's, I'd note the following: The Golden Company is waiting for them in Volantis. It sure would have been nice if someone had bothered to inform them of this fact. I can't see that providing said information would have been all that difficult, and it surely would have changed their thinking. We'll get into this more when we discuss events in ADwD.

[cade]

Oznak zo Pahl ... his uncle is the richest man in Meereen and his father commands the city guard

This is relevant to the upcoming crucifixions and the widespread claims that the 163 were selected at random (even though Dany specifically asked for their leaders) and didn't include the most powerful slave masters. We later learn that Dany knows three uncles of the mighty House Pahl were among the 163, which very likely included the richest man in Meereen, as the Pahls are said to have become "A house of women."

I don't think that Dany is crazy, and I don't think she's going crazy. She has some ability to control her emotions. That doesn't mean that she never makes decisions based fundamentally on emotion. I'd say that her rejection of slavery was based primarily on an emotional reaction. That doesn't make it bad, but there are problems with it. Dany, to this point, appears to have problems with long term planning.

Yet we have no evidence that her vastly more experienced, knowledgeable advisers are any better. Was this intentional, or was Martin trying to glide over contrivances, aware that it strained credulity for Dany to leave a defeated enemy in power with resources to attack not just her forces, but also the crippled city she'd just liberated and left with weak defenses. Is it just a coincidence that Martin skipped over the aftermath of both victories? If he wanted to say something about Dany's lack of long-term planning, you'd think he'd have someone, anyone, advise her differently, rather than having her chief adviser say "Your Grace could not have known."

Likewise, Dany is criticized for apparently making little effort to train her dragons, but to my recollection, no one else even mentions that they need to be trained. Dany is at least aware: "they must be trained as well, or they will lay my kingdom waste." But that was all the way back in her third chapter of ACoK. Other than having her teach them dracarys, Martin dropped the issue until ADwD. By then Dany is afraid of her dragon nature and trying to suppress it, so it's understandable that she distances herself from her dragons, but before then I see no reason why she wouldn't have made more of an effort to train them. Since Martin has glossed over a number of other important moments in her story, perhaps this is another example.

[Mithras]

I don't believe in A+J=T, I think there is simply nothing to back it. I think it is much more likely that Tyrion and Plumm share the same ancestor, Elaena Targaryen. Lords tend to marry within their regions, and Plumm's kids would have made very desirable brides and grooms. They could have married into other Westerland houses that later married into House Lannister. I agree with Paper Weaver on that.

Yeah, A+J=T is not plausible. I think not only a Plumm marriage to the Lannisters is possible, but also the wife of Damon Lannister might be Eleana herself. A certain husband of Eleana was the master of coin but Eleana was the one performing the duties. I think Damon might fit this description given that Tywin ruled the realm as the Hand but he was ruled by his wife at home.

That means even without a Plumm marriage, the Lannisters get Valyrian blood through Gerold Lannister.

I think the fact that Tywin realistically expected Aerys to marry Rhaegar to Cersei means that the Lannisters do have some Valyrian Blood. If Robert's claim was the best after the rebellion, that means there were other claims to the IT worse than his.

[The Sleeper]

Marching versus Siege. Without going into particular logistics, it seems to me that while marching off to cross an entire continent is not a promising concept, neither is assaulting a well defended city without provisions and siege equipment. The decision was not made on account which was easier. It was made on account of Dany feeling and being responsible for the Freedmen who followed her. Solutions were sought for the second option not the first.

I would like to expand a bit on something Parwan said. The children were not crucified purely for cruelty's sake. The Meereenese had taken every step to deal with Dany in military terms, they had scorched the earth retreated behind this war. The children and Oznahk zo Pahl were, I think, the first sallies in psychological warfare and not necessarily intended for Dany. Dany saw them as insults or challenges but her followers are not the dragon queen. They are former slaves and crucified slaves would have been a familiar and disheartening image towards them. Likewise with the challenger. If no one rose to meet their challenge it would seem that no one among them had the courage to stand up to their former master and if that person lost it would sent the message that they cannot win and that the faith that awaited them would be that of the children.

This provides the impetus for a contrast to come to the fore. That is the contrast between Jorah and Barry, which has also emerged before. In this instance not in terms of their individual characters which will culminate in the next chapter but in terms of their council regarding the situation. Jorah comes once again on the side of ruthless pragmatism. Indeed every argument he gives is true. Defeating Meereen's champion would not cause the city to fall. Barristan invokes honor as a motive, but astutely points out that moral is a very important factor that should not be neglected. It echoes in spirit their arguments on obtaining the Unsulllied. I am not certain that Barry's starting point is not the moral attitude, but he knows how to phrase his arguments in terms of actual benefits and disadvantages.

Dany listens to both of them in this instant and chooses to answer the challenge in a way that it will cost her the least if she so happened to lose and seeing this as an opportunity to test Belwas' mettle. AS it turns out she strikes gold in this instance, as Belwas apart from being an able fighter, proves himself to be a consummate performer and crowd-pleaser, proceeding not only to demolish Pahl in a very entertaining fashion, but to also humiliate him and the defenders, turning the defenders' gambit completely on them. He does not neglect entertaining the readers as well by getting Dany to mother him.

[SeanF]

One point that does come up both here, and later in ADWD, is that the Meereenese poisoned the wells outside Meereen. Tyrion will later wonder why Dany didn't do so, when the Slaver army approached Meereen.

One might have expected an experienced fighter like Ser Barristan to recommend this, and of course, they have the example here. As it turns out, failing to poison the wells was a good thing. The Slaver army settled down in a plague-spot, and are now being ravaged by the Pale Mare. But, it's not something she could have anticipated.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yeah, A+J=T is not plausible. I think not only a Plumm marriage to the Lannisters is possible, but also the wife of Damon Lannister might be Eleana herself. A certain husband of Eleana was the master of coin but Eleana was the one performing the duties. I think Damon might fit this description given that Tywin ruled the realm as the Hand but he was ruled by his wife at home.

That means even without a Plumm marriage, the Lannisters get Valyrian blood through Gerold Lannister.

I think the fact that Tywin realistically expected Aerys to marry Rhaegar to Cersei means that the Lannisters do have some Valyrian Blood. If Robert's claim was the best after the rebellion, that means there were other claims to the IT worse than his.

LOL, See i dont think the PLumm/Lannister/Targrayen thing is plausible either. We will have to wait and see I guess.

Either way, we can agree that TYrion is going to ride Viserion :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I don't think that Dany is crazy, and I don't think she's going crazy. She has some ability to control her emotions. That doesn't mean that she never makes decisions based fundamentally on emotion. I'd say that her rejection of slavery was based primarily on an emotional reaction. That doesn't make it bad, but there are problems with it. Dany, to this point, appears to have problems with long term planning. There are characters who are better at analyzing things carefully.

Yes, I think Jorah was too focused on the "Let's go to Westeros" idea. In his defense, and in Dany's, I'd note the following: The Golden Company is waiting for them in Volantis. It sure would have been nice if someone had bothered to inform them of this fact. I can't see that providing said information would have been all that difficult, and it surely would have changed their thinking. We'll get into this more when we discuss events in ADwD.

Yes, long term planning is tough for her. Everything was going her way for a while, then it all caught up to her at once. But again, I salute her for sticking her ground in Meereen and not fleeing from her problems. She could have easily set sail for Westeros and left her mess uncleaned behind her. As i have said before, she was trying something new, something no one in the history of PLanetos (including her Valyrian ancestors) had ever tried before; to end slavery in Slaver's Bay......lol if she succeeds, they will have to rename it.

[Parwan]

Oznak zo Pahl ... his uncle is the richest man in Meereen and his father commands the city guard

This is relevant to the upcoming crucifixions and the widespread claims that the 163 were selected at random (even though Dany specifically asked for their leaders) and didn't include the most powerful slave masters. We later learn that Dany knows three uncles of the mighty House Pahl were among the 163, which very likely included the richest man in Meereen, as the Pahls are said to have become "A house of women."

Yet we have no evidence that her vastly more experienced, knowledgeable advisers are any better. Was this intentional, or was Martin trying to glide over contrivances, aware that it strained credulity for Dany to leave a defeated enemy in power with resources to attack not just her forces, but also the crippled city she'd just liberated and left with weak defenses. Is it just a coincidence that Martin skipped over the aftermath of both victories? If he wanted to say something about Dany's lack of long-term planning, you'd think he'd have someone, anyone, advise her differently, rather than having her chief adviser say "Your Grace could not have known."

Likewise, Dany is criticized for apparently making little effort to train her dragons, but to my recollection, no one else even mentions that they need to be trained. Dany is at least aware: "they must be trained as well, or they will lay my kingdom waste." But that was all the way back in her third chapter of ACoK. Other than having her teach them dracarys, Martin dropped the issue until ADwD. By then Dany is afraid of her dragon nature and trying to suppress it, so it's understandable that she distances herself from her dragons, but before then I see no reason why she wouldn't have made more of an effort to train them. Since Martin has glossed over a number of other important moments in her story, perhaps this is another example.

Very good points. I’ll add a few more:

The business about the failure of the more experienced advisers, and their continued support of Dany, works well with a main theme of mine: Dany fits in. She has some serious weaknesses. Overall, however, I’d say that they are weaknesses that are quite typical of her time and her class. She does not stand out as some sort of arch villain.

I tend to see Jorah and Barristan as good fighters and good lieutenants. Perhaps they are good captains. They don’t appear to be that good as generals, or even colonels. That, at least, is my way of rationalizing the problem(s) you and others are pointing to. Dany’s advisers know more about specific items of military procedure and military technology (for example, the queen doesn’t even know about how siege machinery is built until she is told). They aren’t great when it comes to larger issues of military strategy.

Barristan Selmy's views are quite important when we try to evaluate Daenerys Targaryen. More on this below.

Marching versus Siege. Without going into particular logistics, it seems to me that while marching off to cross an entire continent is not a promising concept, neither is assaulting a well defended city without provisions and siege equipment. The decision was not made on account which was easier. It was made on account of Dany feeling and being responsible for the Freedmen who followed her. Solutions were sought for the second option not the first.

I would like to expand a bit on something Parwan said. The children were not crucified purely for cruelty's sake. The Meereenese had taken every step to deal with Dany in military terms, they had scorched the earth retreated behind this war. The children and Oznahk zo Pahl were, I think, the first sallies in psychological warfare and not necessarily intended for Dany. Dany saw them as insults or challenges but her followers are not the dragon queen. They are former slaves and crucified slaves would have been a familiar and disheartening image towards them.

...

The best move would have been to stay in Astapor. I don't see that anyone advised Dany to do this. The final decision was Dany's. There is no reason, however, to say that the queen refused to follow good advice.

Another reason that Dany didn't bypass Meereen was her feeling that doing so would be a defeat. As I said above, I think that Dany's insight here was superior to that of her advisers. Her enemies would have seen successful Meereenese defiance as a victory, and this would probably have encouraged them to make further moves against her. Dany's forces faced a bad situation before Meereen. This was due to some bad decisions made earlier. Given the bad situation, though, I maintain that Daenerys made the best possible decision this time.

One point that does come up both here, and later in ADWD, is that the Meereenese poisoned the wells outside Meereen. Tyrion will later wonder why Dany didn't do so, when the Slaver army approached Meereen.

One might have expected an experienced fighter like Ser Barristan to recommend this, and of course, they have the example here

...

Yes, one might have expected this.

Most of what we are talking about here is fairly technical military stuff. However, it isn't just a matter of Dany's having as good a strategic sense as her advisers. The continued support that many people give the dragon queen has wider significance. We'll see this more clearly in later chapters, but it is already clear enough. Barristan's support is particularly interesting. Some readers see him as a yes man. Others claim he is a hypocrite. I don't think these evaluations are fair. Even if they are, Selmy's belief in the queen is important. Who thinks Barristan Selmy is a fine man, the sort of person who personifies what a knight should be? Just about everyone in the Seven Kingdoms believes this. Even Littlefinger has some (admittedly left-handed) compliments for him. I pointed this out in a thread entitled "Barristan the Barometer." The main point was not that Ser Barristan is a great guy, it was that virtually everyone appears to think that he is one.

I find it easy to square Selmy's (at least partially deserved) reputation and his support of the Targaryen queen with my claim that Dany fits into the general scheme of things. The knight is not the ultimate authority on good rulers, but his opinion can't be disregarded.

[Annara Snow]

I agree that Victarion will slay a lot of people including Hizdahr, Barristan, Jorah, Daario. However, Drogo killed Viserys and Dany didnot blink. Why should she be angry with Victarion when he solves a lot of her problems and proves to be a dragonrider?

Uh, because she likes three out of those four people and doesn't want them dead? I also don't see how killing Barristan, Daario or Jorah would "solve" any problems? Barristan is the loyal knight of her Queensguard and her right hand man who's currently trying to defend Meereen and win the battle in her name; Daario is her lover and one of her warriors and she's in love with him; Jorah used to be her most trusted friend and advisor, and while she was angry at him his betrayal enough to banish him, she didn't put him to death even then, and she's found herself missing him since. And he's not posing any problems to her that I can see.

Victarion, meanwhile, is currently nothing but a brute she's never met and has no connection to him, what reasons does she have to look favorably upon him?

Viserys was the brother who not only abused her for years and sold her and then continued to insult her and try to impose his power over her - he threatened her and the life of her unborn child in public in front of all the Dothraki and sealed his fate... and deserved it IMO. He became "the man who was her brother". I'm not sure if Dany could have saved him even if she had pleaded for his life - Drogo wasn't going to spare him after that, both for personally wanting him dead, and because he couldn't have realistically let Viserys live after that without eroding his own authority in front of the Dothraki - but at that point, I didn't feel she should have tried to save him. And he was clearly beyond saving, if he hadn't died then, he would have just continued getting himself into trouble.

This makes it all the more odd that that she should then trust the Green Grace, later on in Meereen. The Green Grace may have been one of the people in the main plaza, begging for mercy, after Dany captured the city. She almost

certainly had relatives among those who were crucified, or died when the city was taken. Dany ought to realise that she has no reason to like her.

Ser Barristan will make it back into her good books. She trusts Daario, up to a point, although she's also dismayed by his brutality. She trusts Missandei fully.

This leads on to Dany's loneliness. In the next chapter, she'll wonder "were all gods as lonely as she was.". She doesn't really have any friends, apart from Missandei -and there, the relationship is more like Missandei being an adopted daughter. Irri and Jhiqi are too servile to be true friends. Daario is a lover, Ser Barristan is an adviser. Perhaps that's the reason she trusts the Green Grace too much; she likes her company.

In truth, most of the main protagonists are lonely. Most true friends are found in one's immediate family, and not always then.

It's been pointed out before that Dany may have a tendency to trust older, matronly women who appear to be friendly - she made the same mistake with Mirri Maz Duur - and that this could be because she never had a mother figure.

I would say that she also has the tendency to trust those she perceives as older, protective fatherly or avuncular figures; I've pointed out in her first chapter that the words she uses to describe Jorah (big strong bear) are similar to the description of Ser William Barry, who is also described as bear-like, and who was always nice to her, even when he wasn't to others. She also did not expect Brown Pen Plumm to betray her.

On the other hand, she is very taken with Daario from the start, but Daario, who she immediately perceives as a potential lover, was never someone she trusted.

Thank you Mysterious One for the analysis. :)

Paper Weaver quote;

I think Viserion's attitude here is generally misunderstood, by Dany most of all. Viserion is the most clever dragon and what he liked here is Brown Ben's plan to infiltrate Mereen, not his person. I don't think he has a fondness to BBP, given that the guy is a scum who turns his cloak so easily. We know that Drogon was able to sense deception and treachery in HotU. Why should Viserion sympathize with a turncloak?

See I disagree with you on this, Viserion likes BBP because he shares so much blood with Dany. He is the only person the Dragons have ever met who shares blood with Dany, and they immediately show that they like him, they cuddle up to him twice IIRC. It is quite possible that Ossifer Plumm had Ben with a straight up Targ Princess, we dont know which one, but it could have easily been an off shoot of Rhae or Daella, Mantarys or Valarr Targaryen , there are possibilities as well for the mother in characters we have not yet learned the names of. But if his mother was a Targ and Tyrion suggests he has 2 Targ family members, which means there was Targ on his fathers side as well....... I dont see how anyone could argue that this is not the reason the Dragons like him. It is spelled out fairly clearly if you ask me. And BBP's Targ ancestry is mentioned at least 3 times in DwD, I think that mixed with the dragons 'liking him' is what GRRM would call a 'blatant hint'.

He did pretty much have Viserion before Rhaegal roasted him though.

For all we know, Quentyn may have ended up being successful with Viserion, though it's far from certain. I don't know if he could have succeeded in riding him - from what we've seen in tPatQ, taming a dragon who doesn't know is very difficult to say the least, and it seems that bolder people (like Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White) and those who know how to approach dragons (Nettles, giving them food) are more likely to tame them; and we don't even know if any or all of those really had Targ blood. Targaryen children were usually given eggs, and those people spent a lot of times with the dragons before they tried to ride them, the exception being Aemond riding Vhagar.

But at least he may not have gotten roasted if there was just one dragon there. Trying to tame two is a recipe for disaster.

And anyway, while Viserion (is there any evidence of other dragons liking BBP? I don't remember) seemed to like Ben, he had his mother there and Ben seemed like her friend; we don't know if Viserion would let Ben ride him if Ben had come up to him while he was chained and tried to take him away. And we certainly can't say that Rhaegal wouldn't have roasted him when he saw him trying to tame Viserion.

I don't know if Viserion is smarter than the other two dragons, I don't think there's evidence for that. But it does seem that he is friendlier, based on his reactions to Ben and Quentyn. I'm trying to get an idea of the personalities of the three dragons, though only based on ASOS and ADWD since I can't remember anything in particular about their behavior from ACOK. In any case, looking at the dragons' reactions during the scene where they are channeling Dany's anger at Jorah and Barristan, this is the second time that Viserion has shown his displeasure by blowing smoke (he was doing that while he was chained to the cart in Astapor while going to the Plaza of Punishment) - which could be giving people a warning sign. Rhaegal seems the most impulsive of the three and prone to immediate violence, he is breathing fire. In Astapor, he couldn't keep still and was trying to fly. We know that he would roast Quentyn. Drogon, who is the most powerful and dangerous, seems to have much more self-control. His reactions here is not as aggressive - he is just flapping his wings in the air - but I'm mostly basing this on the way he behaved in the Plaza of Punishment, where he was the only one of the three dragons who was completely calm all the way to the Plaza - until the moment came to kill Kraznys. I speculated that Drogon, having a closer connection to Dany, was able to sense her emotions better and sort of knew that everything was going according to the plan. One could also see it as a similarity with Dany, who actually is not impulsive, although she is driven by emotion and can unleash "fire and blood" on her enemies; we've seen in Astapor and with the sellswords in Yunkai how good Dany is at pretending and putting her enemies at ease until the time has come to put her plan in action.

BTW, I despise the A+J=T theory. Not only it has very little going for it, it also has evidence against it (the similarities between Tyrion and Tywin that Genna notes) and would devalue Tyrion's arc, IMO, and prove Tywin right (which I hate just as much, as Tywin's desire to believe that Tyrion was a bastard was based on his prejudice and feeling of shame for fathering a dwarf). If any of Joanna's kids were fathered by Aerys, I think it makes a lot more sense if it's Cersei and Jaime, which both can be supported by some hints (the similarities and in-universe comparisons between Joffrey and Aerys, and growing similarity and in-universe comparisons between Cersei and Aerys; in particular, if one accepts the idea that Joffrey had some sort of a hereditary mental illness and that inbreeding i.e. recessive genes were responsible for it, this would support the idea of Aerys being his grandfather, as there is no indication of mental illness running in the Lannister family, as opposed to the Targaryens) and would both work much better narratively (doesn't prove Tywin right, and makes it even more ironic if Tyrion is his only biological child while his beautiful golden twins are not; doesn't let Tyrion off the hook for kinslaying or devalue the importance of his relationship with Tywin; would mean that Jaime also killed his biological father; and would help explain Aerys' bizarre behavior regarding Jaime).

But that's just if some of Tywin's children are supposed to actually be Aerys'; in that case, I much prefer and am inclined to believe in A+J=C+J. However, GRRM may have been just throwing a red herring. I'm not generally inclined to believe in Secret Targ theories other than R+L=J; there would be just too many Secret Targs running around, and it would devalue the importance of the R+L=J reveal. And there are too many non-secret "Targs" running around as it is.

[The Sleeper]

It's been pointed out before that Dany may have a tendency to trust older, matronly women who appear to be friendly - she made the same mistake with Mirri Maz Duur - and that this could be because she never had a mother figure.

I would say that she also has the tendency to trust those she perceives as older, protective fatherly or avuncular figures; I've pointed out in her first chapter that the words she uses to describe Jorah (big strong bear) are similar to the description of Ser William Barry, who is also described as bear-like, and who was always nice to her, even when he wasn't to others. She also did not expect Brown Pen Plumm to betray her.

On the other hand, she is very taken with Daario from the start, but Daario, who she immediately perceives as a potential lover, was never someone she trusted.

I think Dany is starved for familial relationships which has a tendency to create blind spots for her in her estimations of people. In this particular chapter she thinks of Jorah as her big strong bearand of Barry as her brother's friend. Which is why she is incensed by their betrayals. In particular Jorah's behavior seen under a more neutral light is revealed to be quite despicable, as he is sycophantic, condescending, hypocritical and that is without the informing.

[HexMachina]

I think Dany is starved for familial relationships which has a tendency to create blind spots for her in her estimations of people. In this particular chapter she thinks of Jorah as her big strong bearand of Barry as her brother's friend. Which is why she is incensed by their betrayals. In particular Jorah's behavior seen under a more neutral light is revealed to be quite despicable, as he is sycophantic, condescending, hypocritical and that is without the informing.

I've just been following alog until now but thought I would chime in.

I agree with this, Dany seems to crave that sense of family and familial relationships above almost anything else. As you have said, she thinks of Jorah and her former protector Ser Willum Darry as almost fatherly figures, and she connects Barristan with her brother Rhaegar. In addition to this, we have her assuming the role of a mother to her "children" the former slaves, and (if I can just jump forward a few chapters) a cross between a mother-sister relationship with Missandei and her Dothraki hand maids. I think that this longing for a family gives valuable insight into just how deeply the betrayals of Jorah and Barristan hurt her, and makes her later decision to banish Jorah seem a lot more restrained.

[Ragnorak]

“I have not forgotten Westeros.” Dany dreamt of it some nights, this fabled land that she had never seen.

You stopped at Astapor to buy an army, not to start a war. Save your spears and swords for the Seven Kingdoms, my queen. Leave Meereen to the Meereenese and march west for Pentos.”

I don't think Jorah's advice this chapter is bad per se so much as it is heartless in its pragmatism and so clearly at odds with Dany's priorities. It is also a failure to recognize that Dany has no memory of Westeros and understand that that the moment she laid eyes on Meereen it became more real to her than Westeros has ever been. There's a clear element of his selfish desires blinding him to some rather obvious things about this woman he claims to love. Insofar as the conquering of Westeros is concerned he is correct that Meereen itself is of no military value. The need to take the Demon Road if they go by land tends to shade his advice as worse but we aren't told about the Demon Road until later. This makes his counsel here come across as more about valuing a return to Westeros over freeing the slaves in Meereen rather than about the wisdom of suggesting the Demon Road-- although a closer look makes the Demon Road seem an appropriate metaphor for the path he would have chosen.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

In Jorah's case it has been his great tragedy. He fell from honor stooping so low as to sell slaves in his tragic quest for the love of Lynesse and turning his back on the freed slaves is choosing that same path again. His love for Dany has brought him to this crusade to smash the slave trade in Essos which seems a very fitting form of repentance for his past crimes. This is an opportunity for Jorah to turn his tragic course of love into a glorious one yet he chooses otherwise. His prior crimes were extreme measures in attempts to please Lynesse and he isn't willing to go to the same extremes in the opposite direction to please Dany.

I think the Hero of Meereen helps demonstrate Jorah's fallen honor in that he no longer even sees the value in maintaining the appearance of honor while all those around him see the demoralizing effect and Barristan explicitly claims the challenge must be met for honor's sake. Jorah's failure to feel a need to respond reminds me of Jaime's offers of single combat that no one else feels the need to take seriously from the oathbreaking Kingslayer.

This is another chapter where we see Dany as keenly perceptive, a quick learner who easily translates her past experiences into life lessons, eager to here contrary counsel, and someone who is astutely aware of potential consequences.

“It’s his city I want, not his meager manhood.” She was growing angry, however. If I ignore this any longer, my own people will think me weak. Yet who could she send? She needed Daario as much as she did her bloodriders. Without the flamboyant Tyroshi, she had no hold on the Stormcrows, many of whom had been followers of Prendahl na Ghezn and Sallor the Bald.

“Why that one, Khaleesi?” Rakharo demanded of her. “He is fat and stupid.”

“Strong Belwas was a slave here in the fighting pits. If this highborn Oznak should fall to such the Great Masters will be shamed, while if he wins… well, it is a poor victory for one so noble, one that Meereen can take no pride in.” And unlike Ser Jorah, Daario, Brown Ben, and her three bloodriders, the eunuch did not lead troops, plan battles, or give her counsel. He does nothing but eat and boast and bellow at Arstan. Belwas was the man she could most easily spare.

Oznak zo Pahl charged a third time, and now Dany could see plainly that he was riding past Belwas, the way a Westerosi knight might ride at an opponent in a tilt, rather than at him, like a Dothraki riding down a foe. The flat level ground allowed the charger to get up a good speed, but it also made it easy for the eunuch to dodge the cumbersome fourteen-foot lance.

“Then what do you advise, Ser Jorah?”

“You will not like it.”

“I would hear it all the same.”

I think in many ways Dany will stop manifesting these traits in Meereen and one of my big curiosities in this reread is exploring why she has such a marked change of behavior from the first three books.

Currently Dany is taking the high road as far as a moral course. In order to take Meereen she will have to send men through the sewers to tread through filth. This filth stains and runs the risk of rising over one's head. There's a metaphor there for what Martin seems to view as a necessary deviation from the moral high ground to be a successful leader like we see in Aemon's raven and dove speech.

There's a similar theme in Dany's ride. She leaves the protective shelter of the encampment and sees the Unsullied bathing. Even when there's no water they find a way to stay clean with sand. Dany has done this so far, stayed morally clean even when there seemed to be no water at hand. As she leaves her sheltered area of protective stakes she finds treacherous danger outside that helps reveal the treacheries inside.

They betrayed me. But they saved me. But they lied. “You go…” My bear, my fierce strong bear, what will I do without him? And the old man, my brother’s friend.

Her black and white world has suddenly become very grey and conflicted. Not only does her personal past with Jorah muddy the picture but Barristan was her brother's friend, the brother she is trying to emulate. Her simple protected world just got very complicated and her decision is to embrace the path of filth as a means of "restoring honor" and achieving success. Embracing that filth bears resemblance to Qhorin Halfhand's notion of what honor is worth compared to the greater goal honor is supposed to serve.

I'm not sure if this will hold up as we move forward, but the 163 crucified slaves comes up here and the Meereen's willingness to scorch the earth and poison the wells stands in contrast to Dany's later unwillingness to poison the wells that will come up in Tyrion's POV. These seem tied to later decisions Dany will make in Meereen where she is extremely reluctant to embrace that path of filth again and tries to return to the moral high road. The well poisoning especially stands out to me given how here we have such clear examples of Dany learning from her past yet later she will refuse to embrace this tactic that is so successful against her now. The foundations for these later contrasts are being laid now and will continue with things like learning Astapor's fate.