Sansa is obnoxious

[RhaenysBee]

18 hours ago, ummester said:

She has always been a bitch though - it's in character for her. She has just been very meek and passive about it.

Yeah, that's actually true. Being an underdog in KL supressed her bitchiness. 

22 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

Actually other than pointing out that they didn't have enough people and should wait, the only thing Sansa asked Jon was that he not let Ramsay get in his head. She explained that Ramsay is a master of mind-games and straight up told Jon not to let him win that game. That is the one thing Jon didn't do, and it's why any military planning Jon and Davos did ended up not mattering. Ramsay played with Jon's head by killing Rickon as sadistically as possible, and Jon got caught in the trap and forgot who he was and what he was doing and went at Ramsay in a blind rage. While I doubt Jon et al could have won on their own, they certainly lost because Jon let Ramsay get to him and did exactly what Ramsay wanted. If Jon had listened to the one actual piece of advice Sansa gave him, it would have played out very differently. (I'm not counting The Vale's last minute win as Jon's, because it wasn't.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm still really annoyed and upset that Sansa kept The Vale army a secret, and I'm #TeamJon all the way, but the one thing that was clear in the ep is that Jon did not, in fact, do everything Sansa asked. And that was his critical error. 

Yep all of this is really bothersome. Agreed. 

Well I can't argue with that. Jon is a true stark. Hot tempers, slow minds, as Littlefinger very insightfully put it. But I still think that Sansa was listened to (when she had something constructive to add, which was rarely), they visited houses and sent out letters just like she suggested. As for waiting another day, Jon did what he thought was right based on the information he had. Sansa refused to give extra information or reason as to why they should wait, so I can't really blame that on Jon, and I don't even like Jon, so it wouldn't be a great effort. Well, I like Sansa even less, but still. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

47 minutes ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

Saying it again, Sansa killed Rickon

There is no depth she would hesitate to sink to in order to achieve her personal gains. If that includes stepping on the backs of dead Starks, Sansa Lannister Bolton will walk right on and over those corpses. It is and always has been about "me,me,me,me,me,me" with her.

I dont get the resistance to acknowledging dark Sansa, its been there every chapter of this saga, people are just in denial. Also remember that LF offered to pull the Ramsay betrothal at the last moment as she approached WF, but Sansa willingly went through with it by choice. She cannot bare the thought of a day as a commoner, even if that means joining with the family that killed your older brother. Like I said she has no compunction over stepping over dead Starks to get what she wants. Next she will be re-embrace her fathers betrayer LF.

GOT needs dark Sansa, the world of ASOIAF has to have villians or the story will be over.. Who will Sansa betray next, likely Jon again, with LF assistance. This could push Jon to allign with Dany, against LF and Sansa, that might get interesting?

I vote for a full on Dark Sansa, go all in, not pettiness and fibbing, but Cersei style dark, screw the half measures. I might begin to enjoy that character over the spoiled entitled one we've had thus far?

[The Unsung Hero]

Two Reasons for Sansa withholding information

1. There was no guarantee Littlefinger would come. If she disclosed that information to Jon and the war council they might have acted more boldly than they should, compromising their real position in relationship to the Bolton forces. If she told them this information and Littlefinger did not show up, it could have gotten them all killed. On the other hand, they might have waited longer, had the Vale join with them, and the Bolton's might have fled back into Winterfell for a siege. By not telling Jon and by forcing the Stark army to show its hand to Ramsay gave Ramsay the false confidence to bring out his forces in full to crush them. Is Sansa complicit in the murder of thousands? Possibly. But there is some tactical argument to be made for withholding information as delicate as a maybe army arriving at an unspecified time.

2. Sansa wrote to Littlefinger with the intent of promising him something in return for his assistance. She likely knows that the only thing Littlefinger could want is her hand in marriage, and if she told Jon about her message she would likely have to disclose this. That would mean Jon and possibly others in the North would want to weigh in on whether or not Sansa should remarry, or whether or not it was worth the risk. Sansa is altogether sick of others dictating how she is given to others. By not telling Jon she takes full ownership of her decision to marry herself off to Littlefinger as part of an alliance, rather than a deal made by others with her as the bargaining chip.

Just to be clear, I find Sansa's actions dark and reprehensible, and she is complicit in the murder of thousands of lives. That said, her actions do make sense both personally and tactically and I think the show took a nuanced gamble by giving Sansa real power over the politics of the North this season, even through treachery. She has been molded by her torturers, so it's completely fair to see a now warped Sansa playing the game exactly as she's been taught. Many probably are sad and disappointed to see Sansa's character take such a drastically dark turn. But in all seriousness, did you expect her to come out unscathed from everything she's been through? She has survived this long by lying and feigning ignorance. She has only survived thus far by allowing others to underestimate her own cunning. Her actions in the North are completely in line with her character development and watchers of the show should be prepared to see some of their favorite characters die, or worse, become the villain.

Feel free to criticize or rebuke. 

[Woman of War]

17 hours ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

No, she doesn't deserve to be killed off. 

Nobody does, and yet some die because the plot demands it. Characters are not more important than the story itself.

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” Gandalf, by Tolkien

Really I am always annoyed when there is irrational hatred directed towards fictional characters, be it Dany, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Arya, Sansa or whoever.

And I am super annoyed when whatever hatred and filth is directed towards really living and breathing people .... like the showmakers. There is indeed some low level crap in these forums.

[Woman of War]

17 hours ago, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

Sansa is NOT a traitor. She trusts a lot of the wrong people but she never did that in a calculated manner. I don't blame her for having trust issues after being abused so much but she does not deserve any of this hate spewed to her. 

But perhaps Sansa getting "darker" is not bad writing but simply the way her character is going to be developed - in both show and books. Martin though will take more time and yet there would be a direction  with steps forward and backward.  A road into moral ambiguity is always a hugely fascinating perspective in character development even if there are people who do not like it. See Arya.

If Martin intended to turn Dany into a mass murderer we would have to swallow it as well. Some would cheer for always having known it and some of us would weep. Is there a point in endless posts defending a character's actions instead of accepting the intention of the story even if we dislike it?

[ununsullied]

whaaat! I think Sansa was epic on THE SHOW. Books, i dunno. I think she made valid points, I don't think they were secretive or underhand. Who would not get darker with an EVIL Joffrey, an even worse Cersei ( a woman in same shoes) and then a hideous Ramsay.

You go girl.  Why is Arya perceived as better when all she wants is revenge. I think Sansa is due a big fat load of revenge too. Sure she was princessey when she was 12 or so - i.e. a child. I am very happy to see Sansa get her own revenge. 

[LordBloodraven]

On 20/06/2016 at 10:01 AM, Sand11751 said:

Yeah, because everybody always takes Sansa so seriously. If she'd just opened up her big fat mouth a little wider, surely Jon would have listened to, "I've got a couple thousand knights in the Vale who'll help us! I don't know when they'll show up, but if we just sit around and wait, they'll come. I know they will. And surely when Ramsay sees this happening and knows we now outnumber his forces, he won't hid out in Winterfell so we have to deal with a never-ending siege."

By the old gods and the new, the Sansa hate is real.

 

How is this Sansa hate?

This is a legit question. Sansa withholds crucial information from Jon. Had she told Jon that the Knights of the Vale were willing to fight for House Stark, Jon and Sansa's options would be much more diverse. But she didn't and as Jon said, "We need more men but we fight with the army that we have". What else could be done? Waiting would be stupid because their ragtag army would melt away due to the weather and their lack of supplies. How could they feed +2000 soldiers while holding any strategic castles/towns for their lines? But Sansa wants Jon to wait without trusting him,and telling him why they should.

I think Jon's march to Winterfell was kind of similar to Henry Tudor's  march to Bosworth. Ragtag at the beginning, stronger as you march, but you'd better have a decisive battle as soon as you can get it, if you want to win.

You are assuming a lot of things. Knowing about the Knights of the Vale doesn't mean that Ramsay would know about it, and would stay in Winterfell. War is about deception, and it could be like the Battle of the Blackwater. Stannis was blindsided by the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and that's how he lost the battle. And Littlefinger was one of the hands behind that alliance.

On a more meta-level, I think this tension between Jon and Sansa and Sansa's refusal to share crucial info with Jon, is what D&D conflate with "women empowerment", "badass" or whatever. When it's not. It was unnecessary but hey, they run the show.

 

 

 

[NutBurz]

14 minutes ago, LordBloodraven said:

On a more meta-level, I think this tension between Jon and Sansa and Sansa's refusal to share crucial info with Jon, is what D&D conflate with "women empowerment", "badass" or whatever. When it's not. It was unnecessary but hey, they run the show.

This argument is so silly.

So a show in which all the main, "badass" characters are male is not male-empowerment? Nah, that´s just standard, that´s how thing "really are".

But now we have about half the important character being females. "Fucking feminist agenda, this is ridiculous"

[LordBloodraven]

14 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

This argument is so silly.

So a show in which all the main, "badass" characters are male is not male-empowerment? Nah, that´s just standard, that´s how thing "really are".

But now we have about half the important character being females. "Fucking feminist agenda, this is ridiculous"

 

Did you understand what I wrote before jumping on your high horse?

Please re-read and reconsider what you wrote

[NutBurz]

35 minutes ago, LordBloodraven said:

1-On a more meta-level, 2-I think this tension between Jon and Sansa and Sansa's refusal to share crucial info with Jon, is what D&D conflate with "women empowerment", "badass" or whatever. 3- When it's not. 4-It was unnecessary but hey, they run the show.

1-Analyzing what the message might be saying about the message...

2- You think that the fact that Sansa´s character is evolving the way it is evolving means that D&D believe that acting like she is acting - untrustworthy and distrustful - is the same as having power despite the patriarchic society she lives in.

3-Here you manage to be right.

4-What is necessary? That characters act the way you want them to? She has plenty of believable reasons to act the way she did, and acting otherwise would be contradictory to her character, so it was anything but unnecessary. And her acting the way she did is the series showing us her flaws, how is that "forced empowerment"?

 

Please, do make yourself clearer if I´m wrong.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Sansa did horrible. Thats what an educated viewer would think of what we ve seen. She got almost all her brothers army killed, and almost Jon to, by keeping key information for helself. It looks like provoking a northern butchery to make her and LF stronger, and Jon weaker in the future developments.

 

But really D&D just think the viewers are dumb. I dont think they read as much as we did into this and just tryed to make her look BADASSSSSS. Horrible writing like Aryas last chapters. Nothing else, from what we can tell with the spoilers there are out there of episode 10. No evil sansa.

The show has gone by the sink without martins material.

[LordBloodraven]

1 minute ago, NutBurz said:

1-Analyzing what the message might be saying about the message...

2- You think that the fact that Sansa´s character is evolving the way it is evolving means that D&D believe that acting like she is acting - untrustworthy and distrustful - is the same as having power despite the patriarchic society she lives in.

3-Here you manage to be right.

4-What is necessary? That characters act the way you want them to? She has plenty of believable reasons to act the way she did, and acting otherwise would be contradictory to her character, so it was anything but unnecessary. And her acting the way she did is the series showing us her flaws, how is that "forced empowerment"?

 

Please, do make yourself clearer if I´m wrong.

 

What you miss is "conflate".

That's how D&D might see Sansa being distrustful/pernicious as emancipating herself, when it's not.

And if the tension that they built between her and Jon on very flimsy grounds is the only way of fighting against patriarchy in Westeros, then it was unnecessary.

On your pojnt 4, Sansa admitted to Brienne that "Jon is Jon" in one of the earlier episodes. Jon is not like Ramsay/Littlefinger/Tyrion or whoever she interacted with in King's Landing. What you just wrote was contradictory to what she said to Brienne. And her acting the way she did, is inconsistent writing from the show meant to pass as "Sansa's empowerment".

[bent branch]

2 hours ago, Woman of War said:

But perhaps Sansa getting "darker" is not bad writing but simply the way her character is going to be developed - in both show and books. Martin though will take more time and yet there would be a direction  with steps forward and backward.  A road into moral ambiguity is always a hugely fascinating perspective in character development even if there are people who do not like it. See Arya.

If Martin intended to turn Dany into a mass murderer we would have to swallow it as well. Some would cheer for always having known it and some of us would weep. Is there a point in endless posts defending a character's actions instead of accepting the intention of the story even if we dislike it?

I agree. I think that sometimes people forget that the story won't be written by how many people we get to agree with us. The story will go the way the people creating the story (either show or novels) want it to.

________________________________

I just want to point out again that Sansa failing to tell Jon about the Vale army is not a mistake or oversight by the writers. In episode 5, Sansa lies to Jon. And just in case the view has missed the fact that Sansa is lying to Jon, they have Brienne ask Sansa why she is lying to Jon. Sansa's lying to Jon is intentional by the writers. I think the reason behind the lies will be resolved this season, but perhaps not.

I will admit that D&D have a tendency to just drop issues. So if this issue remains unresolved this season, they may never circle back to it. However, Sansa lying to Jon is real, not simply Sansa being once again the target of "haters".

[NutBurz]

12 minutes ago, LordBloodraven said:

What you miss is "conflate".

That's how D&D might see Sansa being distrustful/pernicious as emancipating herself, when it's not.

 

21 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

2- You think that the fact that Sansa´s character is evolving the way it is evolving means that D&D believe that acting like she is acting - untrustworthy and distrustful - is the same as having power despite the patriarchic society she lives in.

And that´s not true, they´re not trying to show an empowered woman like you think, they´re trying to show a broken, paranoid, sadistic woman.

 

15 minutes ago, LordBloodraven said:

And if the tension that they built between her and Jon on very flimsy grounds is the only way of fighting against patriarchy in Westeros, then it was unnecessary.

It´s not, she´s not fighting any patriarchy, she´s lost, making big decisions on her own for the first time in her life.

 

17 minutes ago, LordBloodraven said:

On your pojnt 4, Sansa admitted to Brienne that "Jon is Jon" in one of the earlier episodes. Jon is not like Ramsay/Littlefinger/Tyrion or whoever she interacted with in King's Landing. What you just wrote was contradictory to what she said to Brienne. And her acting the way she did, is inconsistent writing from the show meant to pass as "Sansa's empowerment".

"Jon is Jon" could mean so many things. She obviously doesn´t see him as one of the people you mentioned because 1-she doesn´t know him at all and 2-family is supposed to come first. But she obviously doesn´t trust him or she would have told him about LF´s offer in the first moment.

Once again, the show is not trying to show Sansa´s empowerment, it´s trying to show her as a broken woman.

[WolfOfWinter]

Sansa was contemplating suicide in this episode. You don't do that if you know for sure a major army is about to come to your aid. Nor do you come to the realization that no one can protect you, that "no one can protect anyone." The writing for Sansa has been inconsistent for quite a while, but I thought they made it pretty clear that she had no idea the Vale would respond to her plea. Unless she's all of a sudden become the best liar and actress in the entire series..

As for her not reacting to Rickon's death, maybe she came to terms with the probability that he was a goner in the weeks they spent trying to recruit Northerners to their cause? That it finally sunk in when she saw Shaggy's death? But no, I'm sure it's because she's a cold-hearted bitch who wants the North for herself because she's always been power-hungry and self-absorbed. I'm sure she'll plot with LF to kill Jon if he's declared the King in the North.

[Raksha 2014]

I do see the Sansa of this episode as a young woman who is afraid to trust anyone; because almost every time in the last several years she's trusted someone - Joffrey, Cersei, Dontos, Littlefinger, possibly Robb (who she hoped would come and save her but who didn't even try) now Jon - the person has either betrayed and abused her or exploited her or (in Jon's case when he faced Ramsay with too small and army) apparently been unable to keep her safe.  It's not an excuse for her not telling Jon about the possibility of Littlefinger coming with an army; but it would explain why she didn't mention it to him.  She might have believed that Littlefinger wasn't coming and she would look weak or foolish again for asking for his help; since LF is the one who brokered the marriage with Ramsay and persuaded Sansa to go along with it.  (there's also a factor of poor writing in the show; since I tend to believe that Sansa would not have married into House Bolton under any circumstances)

At the end of the episode, Sansa gives that rather unsettling smirk as Ramsay is dying horribly behind her.  The young girl who once had compassion even for her enemies is dead; and Sansa Stark with the steel skin is very much alive.  I have the feeling that Sansa is congratulating herself that for once, she backed the right horse, did not make an alliance that blew up in her face, and carried out her plan of retaking her family's stolen home.  She is not thinking about the price paid in Wildling lives or the price she might have to pay Littlefinger; and if she thinks of Rickon at all, it is in the context of having been able to personally avenge him as she was not able to avenge the deaths of her mother and brother.  

[Woman of War]

3 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

At the end of the episode, Sansa gives that rather unsettling smirk as Ramsay is dying horribly behind her.  The young girl who once had compassion even for her enemies is dead; and Sansa Stark with the steel skin is very much alive.  I have the feeling that Sansa is congratulating herself that for once, she backed the right horse, did not make an alliance that blew up in her face, and carried out her plan of retaking her family's stolen home.  She is not thinking about the price paid in Wildling lives or the price she might have to pay Littlefinger; and if she thinks of Rickon at all, it is in the context of having been able to personally avenge him as she was not able to avenge the deaths of her mother and brother.  

I like your post

I see Sansa's future development alike to Galadriel's vision of herself  if she had taken the Ring: All will love her and despair.

Now "all" don't love Sansa now, she is not a particularly inspiring person,Not anymore at least. But all those who love her might despair because she might make use of their loyalty and lead them into disaster.

She began with the Free Folk, sacrificing them for her  pride and her inability to trust. Though, and that makes her clueless instead of ruthless, she might not even  have been aware of what she did. And I have a feeling that Brienne's oath to Sansa will cost Brienne dearly and might get her killed, just like Pod. And Sandor's potential loyalty might lead to him  dying not for Sansa but because of her. Both Brienne and Sandor might die because of Sansa actually, acting out of misunderstood loyalty and against better knowledge.

Edit: of course I may be wrong, we all are speculating here.

But if Martin intends something else with the Sansa character, like her being the positive and emphatic bringer of peace for all -  then the showmakers have written themselves into a corner. She is established as political failure now.

Only I do not believe any longer that this is Martin's intention. Sansa has started a darker development for very reliable reasons and without being really aware: She was successful in her own eyes, the rest is collateral damage. Will she again unlearn this method? 

[Mladen]

On 6/22/2016 at 10:38 PM, LordBloodraven said:

How is this Sansa hate?

So calling her "Lannister Bolton bitch" is not hate? There is a legitimate question but most discussion don't talk too much about it... Instead, "she killed Rickon", "she was displeased Jon survived"...

[Woman of War]

12 minutes ago, Risto said:

So calling her "Lannister Bolton bitch" is not hate? There is a legitimate question but most discussion don't talk too much about it... Instead, "she killed Rickon", "she was displeased Jon survived"...

Risto, you quote some extreme examples. This happens with people who are extremely emotionally involved and who forget that we are talking fictional characters who serve a plot. "She was displeased Jon survived" is an opinion, an interpretation (which I do not share) but it is not hate speak.

The overwhelming number of critical evaluations about the fictional character of Sansa gives very valid, in my eyes, aspects why Sansa's development may not be a positive one. No need to fixate on those with childish death wishes towards Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Cersei, Jaime - or Sansa. People who get overly emotional and hateful disqualify themselves.

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Risto, you quote some extreme examples. This happens with people who are extremely emotionally involved and who forget that we are talking fictional characters who serve a plot. "She was displeased Jon survived" is an opinion, an interpretation (which I do not share) but it is not hate speak.

The overwhelming number of critical evaluations about the fictional character of Sansa gives very valid, in my eyes, aspects why Sansa's development may not be a positive one. No need to fixate on those with childish death wishes towards Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Cersei, Jaime - or Sansa. People who get overly emotional and hateful disqualify themselves.

Not extreme but very usual, we can count the number of the posts I have referred to and compare the numbers. They are really not good.

I understand what people are criticizing and I have nothing against it but I don't like when it comes a platform for variety of hate comments. This episode gave a lot of valid criticism (and I have seen some good criticism on my thread), but there is no point denying that there is a lot of hate.