[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[Trinket2]

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I would ask that in this other thread because mant there seem to have all the answers about timelines 

 

Saw similar rationalization in the thread about Jon being made king. It blows my mind the length people will go to to defend this crap. There are obvious flaws, but nooo, we can't admit that there are and that the show pretty much is a piece of crap, let's grasp at all the straws we can find to rationalize and come up with every far-fetche reason we can why it makes perfect sense.

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

Thank you, but if I remember correctly that is actually mentioned in A Dance With Dragons - Daenerys realizes that "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" refers to Quentyn Martell dying in Meereen.

I hope Daario won't take power, he doesn't seem like the type who would be interested in that at all. Ever since he was played by the first actor he has been about "fighting for beauty" and loving Daenerys. No sinister motivations. I can imagine him extending his motivation to sleeping with other beautiful women now that Dany is gone and he's the acting ruler - but then, who wouldn't. So he'll have his hands full.

He should know that if he declares himself king he will have to face dragons, and also furious Dany supporters, who have seen the virtual demigod Mhysa defeat all comers. It would be very unrealistic by the producers to make him betray Dany then.

 

As for seeing Jorah again - she could have made things a bit easier for him by giving him some gold before she sent him away to find a cure, eh? The guy did save her life three times - poisoned wine, Son of Harpy, Dothrakis.

As he's now in charge of the remaining armed forces, I imagine that Daario could get himself elected as President in perpetuity, if that's what he wanted.  I think that Daenerys is done with Slavers Bay.

[Ash Enshugar]

11 hours ago, Trinket2 said:

Saw similar rationalization in the thread about Jon being made king. It blows my mind the length people will go to to defend this crap. There are obvious flaws, but nooo, we can't admit that there are and that the show pretty much is a piece of crap, let's grasp at all the straws we can find to rationalize and come up with every far-fetche reason we can why it makes perfect sense.

It kind of boggles my mind overall just how well received this last episode was. Like even people who criticize the show turn around and praise it.

I could kind of understand this for the previous episode, the battle choreography was well done, especially by TV standards, and even if it wasn't particularly realistic, the spectacle was there. But the last episode? True, they moved the plot forwards, but literally nothing made any sense. Every plot was hit with a sledgehammer and the universe has no rules left, anything goes as long as it serves the plot.

Arya's subplot is the best example I think. Lots of people cheer her killing Walder, but all I can think of is WTF? That was one scene that had no buildup, no tension. We never see her in any danger, we never see her planning the thing, we never see her overcoming any odds or challenges. She literally randomly teleports and kills the dude while also throwing an infantile attempt at illogical frey-cake fan service. Then she smiles at the camera to remind us she's basically a psychopath. I'm not sure how can you possibly root or care for a character like this.

 

 

[HellasLEAF]

14 hours ago, lidsa said:

No, I get your point. In your opinion the northerners chose Jon because they want a strong leader for what's coming. But show-Jon has never shown himself to be a strong leader. The only time he led anything, his own men shanked him.  

Then again the show-northerners are all idiots, so you're right, they probably would follow someone like Jon.

Mmmm, you kind of get it.

They aren't following him because he is a great leader.  Or a great military strategist.

They are following him because 1) he has a claim, even as half a Stark 2) they admire his courage on the battlefield and his knowledge of the war to come against the undead and 3) they chose Rob who like Sansa was a true born heir, which lead ultimately to defeat and the Red Wedding.

Again, these are uncertain times for them.  They chose Rob and were wrong.  Now they choose Jon, for different reasons.  I guess we'll find out whether that was wise or foolish soon enough..

[WSmith84]

33 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said:

Mmmm, you kind of get it.

They aren't following him because he is a great leader.  Or a great military strategist.

They are following him because 1) he has a claim, even as half a Stark 2) they admire his courage on the battlefield and his knowledge of the war to come against the undead and 3) they chose Rob who like Sansa was a true born heir, which lead ultimately to defeat and the Red Wedding.

Again, these are uncertain times for them.  They chose Rob and were wrong.  Now they choose Jon, for different reasons.  I guess we'll find out whether that was wise or foolish soon enough..

But why would the Northerners and men of the Vale believe Jon's wacky stories about the undead and White Walkers? That is not a scene you can just leave out. 'Oh, the scene where Jon convinced a bunch of people that there was an undead army led by monsters from children's stories? Happened off-screen.'

[Song of Zombies v. Dragons]

1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

But why would the Northerners and men of the Vale believe Jon's wacky stories about the undead and White Walkers? That is not a scene you can just leave out. 'Oh, the scene where Jon convinced a bunch of people that there was an undead army led by monsters from children's stories? Happened off-screen.'

I completely agree this is the big missing moment for me with this storyline. I assume in the books it will be a tough task to convince anyone the walkers are real (just look at Sam in that scene earlier this year with his dad), but here it's just somehow assumed that Littlefinger and all the northern lords believe they exist and know what they are. 

[Song of Zombies v. Dragons]

Here's the real question (and if there is a thread for this specifically could someone please direct me to it): how much of what has gone on this season will be true in the books? Do we expect to get another reign of Cersei? I find that unlikely and yet is it where Martin is going? Will Jon and Sansa both somehow become involved in the Battle for Winterfell, something that at the moment seems completely impropable? And a larger question as well: will the last chapter of Winds of Winter be Dany setting sail for Westeros, and if so will we find that to be a dissapointment? I had long assumed that she might not actually get to Westeros in that book and that hundreds of pages would be spent on her time with the Dothraki, but now I am wondering if that can truly be afforded. Winter is coming, and it's time for Martin to really leave his real legacy, not this mummers farce D&D are leaving us with. Can it be done in two books? Will it be the same as the show? Certainly Jon's resurrection can't be so simple. If there is a place where these things are being discussed please let me know, or feel free to respond in this thread if that is acceptable.

 

The show is rubbish on that much all those that are wise can agree. Without Martin's direction and his novels to guide them, the writers of Game of Thrones are unable to string together a scene, let alone an episode, that makes logical sense. 

[HellasLEAF]

8 minutes ago, Song of Zombies v. Dragons said:

I completely agree this is the big missing moment for me with this storyline. I assume in the books it will be a tough task to convince anyone the walkers are real (just look at Sam in that scene earlier this year with his dad), but here it's just somehow assumed that Littlefinger and all the northern lords believe they exist and know what they are. 

Are you saying the people and the lords that are closest to the wall (northerner's) had not heard rumors or stories of a growing threat that lies north of the wall?   

I find that impossible to believe.  When Jon warns them the war is not over and there is a threat that will not wait and brings the storm.  To what are they all muttering in agreement too??  You can clearly see this is a pivotal moment.  

 

 

[lakin1013]

When the lords are all in that room, Tormund is there too.   Imagine a scene where the lords do not believe what Jon is saying.  Then Tormund stands up and says -- True that.  Obs, the high borns are not going to believe a wilding so they still disbelieve.  Jon and Tormund then say -- go ahead and raven the Acting Lord Commander Edd Tollett who was at Hardhome too.  So days go by.  The response raven arrives with the support.  The lords line up to become believers.  Jon is now KoTN.  I am sorry but that is not compelling tv to me.  

I agree with HellasLeaf, these Lords have heard rumors and Jon does have a reputation and it was enough for them. 

 

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

When the lords are all in that room, Tormund is there too.   Imagine a scene where the lords do not believe what Jon is saying.  Then Tormund stands up and says -- True that.  Obs, the high borns are not going to believe a wilding so they still disbelieve.  Jon and Tormund then say -- go ahead and raven the Acting Lord Commander Edd Tollett who was at Hardhome too.  So days go by.  The response raven arrives with the support.  The lords line up to become believers.  Jon is now KoTN.  I am sorry but that is not compelling tv to me.  

I agree with HellasLeaf, these Lords have heard rumors and Jon does have a reputation and it was enough for them. 

 

And they're going to believe Edd... why, exactly? And even if the Northern lords do, why would the Vale lords? If they're going to be convinced without actual evidence, on the basis of somebody's word alone, that needs to be shown. Hell, that should be a scene that's given time and dedication.

[ser naes yennet]

and where did 7 Kings Guard come from following Carol to the throne?

[SerMixalot]

Why does no one in KL care that Gregor Clegane is walking around after having been killed by Oberyn?

[lakin1013]

52 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

And they're going to believe Edd... why, exactly? And even if the Northern lords do, why would the Vale lords? If they're going to be convinced without actual evidence, on the basis of somebody's word alone, that needs to be shown. Hell, that should be a scene that's given time and dedication.

For the book, I agree. For a visual medium, no. Maybe they wouldn't believe Edd, but at that point they would have heard like stories from a Stark, a Wilding, and Lord Commander of Castle Black.  That is 3 characters repeating the same information. And there is one more thing - every viewer is also a witness to what Jon and Bran saw and experienced.  I guess we just have to disagree as I think it would be a waste of tv minutes to show us something we already know is true while you think it needs to be shown.  

Also, I don't remember the Vale speaking up at all at the meeting.  For all we know, they don't believe but they have shown up for House Stark.

[Nami]

HBO had to come out and confirm that Rhaegar is Jon's father because they've done a poorly job in introducing this character people still have no idea who he is. Now they made  a drawing even showing all the links between characters because show watchers are clueless lol

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2016/06/got.png

They mentioned him like what, 5 times max?

[SerMixalot]

40 minutes ago, Nami said:

HBO had to come out and confirm that Rhaegar is Jon's father because they've done a poorly job in introducing this character people still have no idea who he is. Now they made  a drawing even showing all the links between characters because show watchers are clueless lol

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2016/06/got.png

They mentioned him like what, 5 times max?

As has been said if you have to explain outside of the show what happened on the show you done fucked up

[Le Cygne]

If they had actually shown Rhaegar and Lyanna's story together, sure would have helped, and been awfully nice to see.

[Littlefingerbanger]

4 hours ago, Ash Enshugar said:

 

Arya's subplot is the best example I think. Lots of people cheer her killing Walder, but all I can think of is WTF? That was one scene that had no buildup, no tension. We never see her in any danger, we never see her planning the thing, we never see her overcoming any odds or challenges. She literally randomly teleports and kills the dude while also throwing an infantile attempt at illogical frey-cake fan service. Then she smiles at the camera to remind us she's basically a psychopath. I'm not sure how can you possibly root or care for a character like this.

 

 

So you'd rather there be 10 more episodes of this buildup? I remember there being lots of complaints about the same old Arya storyline ever she went to Braavos where all she does is face challenges.  Actually I was one of them myself. With the number of episodes left, they have to move the plot as soon as they can. Yes, they have taken liberty to slow or speed up the timeline as per their needs and we need to suspend some of our disbelief as well. I am pretty sure GRRM commented on the timeline issue in one of the books himself in that - the passage of time as the book cuts to different POV shouldn't be assumed to always be going forward. They might be telling a story from a different point in time. It is just a means to speed up things a little and tell an overall story. 

I'm sure if we apply the same degree of nitpicking, we can make the books out to be pretty crappy as well.

[Le Cygne]

On 6/28/2016 at 10:37 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

For a second, when we saw that "girl" smile at Jaime when he was at the Twins, I almost lost my senses freaking out that the show daaaare introduce Gatehouse Ami into it's miserable plot. Gatehouse Ami is my third favorite female character in the stories.

But thanks the gods because logically and naturally it was just Arya wearing randoms face while busy cooking and serving grown men to grown men for a vapid revenge plot.

Yeah, that was quite the bizarre little scene. Like Scotty beamed her there. Just the logistics of the pie thing alone, the suspension of disbelief wasn't worth the mention.

[7th-key]

On 29.6.2016 at 1:09 AM, teemo said:

D&D said the reason Tommen killed himself is because Cersei didn't console him.  Sounds overly simplistic but whatever. 

HA! See, when a woman pursues her career, she neglects her children and they die!

[Le Cygne]

If she had consoled him, he would have been fine with the fact that she just blew up Margaery and a bunch of others and was torturing a septa and all... I'm going to pretend he shooed away Ser Pounce to safety before he jumped.