If Samwell had stayed at the wall . .

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Samwell was able to convince Jon to do the right thing before, twice.  Do you think Samwell could have stopped Jon's treasons (releasing the criminal Mance Rayder, sending Mance to rescue Arya, putting a wildling raiding party together to attack the Boltons) if he had remained at the Wall?  Maybe Jon was beyond reason at that point?  What could Samwell have done, short of sticking a dagger in Jon Snow?

Thanks

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I see no treason.

The Wall's purpose isn't to stop the free folk, it's to stop the Others. Ramsey's letter said that he was going to attack the Wall so Jon's action was to protect the wall. As for saving FArya this is the only time Jon thought himself and his family. At last I find the idea of Sam forgetting how many times Jon has saved him and attack him utter nonsense.

[Macgregor of the North]

To the above poster.

Jon himself (The Lord Commander) states what he proposes to do is treason so that settles that. 

The OP never disputed the wall is meant to stop the Others and it never stated the walls purpose is to stop the free folk, that has nothing to do with the OP.

And it seems you misunderstood the OP completely because it never says that Sam 'will' attack Jon. It is a figure of speech you never grasped the meaning of. 

To the OP. As much as Sam is a good influence on Jon and could reason with him in certain situations it seems Jon had his mind made up on this one, and in any event it's part of a bigger plan of GRRMS that Jon was stabbed so Sam still being there would have been irrelevant I think.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

To the above poster.

 

Please respect what I have already said numberless times and stop referring me in any way. No JQC no @Jon's Queen Consort not the poster above or any other direction. Just not mention me at all.

[Maxxine]

I don't think Sam would have tried to stop Jon because while what Jon was doing was technically treason or at the very least oathbreaking, it was arguably the right thing to do. It's right to save a little girl from a terrible fate. It's right to protect yourself and NW from being attacked especially when you know the NW is the only thing standing between the realm and the Others and if Ramsay wipes out the NW the Others will have free path to the realm and will probably cause insurmountable damage before the majority of Westeros even knows there's a problem. I feel like Sam would have stood beside Jon's decision especially if Jon explained them in the right context. Sam may have argued the other side of the decisions to help Jon perhaps go about them in a better way but I think ultimately he would have been on Jon's side.

[Macgregor of the North]

24 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 

Please respect what I have already said numberless times and stop referring me in any way. No JQC no @Jon's Queen Consort not the poster above or any other direction. Just not mention me at all.

If you want to resort to that sort of petty childish tactic then I'm sure you can block people on here officially so they can't see your activity, but since I am not blocked by you and I wanted to be part of this thread I felt obligated to point out your errors in response to the OP, which you completely misunderstood and took it in your own direction, and you have no reason to block me anyway other than I called bs on what you were saying in other discussions and you couldn't handle it. Fact. 

I have done nothing wrong and you know it, but like I said if you can't handle discussion with me as I am always prepared to challenge nonsense and set things correctly, and still want no part of it, I respect your decision. But. if in the future i am not blocked and see your posts, I'll feel free to comment and call you out on bs as always. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

block people on here officially so they can't see your activity

No there isn't one. If there was I would had done it. So to quote myself

33 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Please respect what I have already said numberless times and stop referring me in any way. No JQC no @Jon's Queen Consort not the poster above or any other direction. Just not mention me at all.

 

[Lurid Jester]

56 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

snip

 

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Snip

Clearly you guys don't like each other.  So how about we stop replying to each other's comments and stop hijacking this threat with these immature antics.  

Thanks. 

[The Fattest Leech]

7 hours ago, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Samwell was able to convince Jon to do the right thing before, twice.  Do you think Samwell could have stopped Jon's treasons (releasing the criminal Mance Rayder, sending Mance to rescue Arya, putting a wildling raiding party together to attack the Boltons) if he had remained at the Wall?  Maybe Jon was beyond reason at that point?  What could Samwell have done, short of sticking a dagger in Jon Snow?

Thanks

I am one who thinks that even if we readers try and sidestep the current story, that the story timeline will find itself back on it's intended path anyway. Boring, I know, but there is a reason for it.

However, if we were to change things even temporarily, then I think it would still be a disaster because:

• The night's watch has forgotten what its intended purpose is and so there is a chance that Jon did not break any vows... but we won't know this until after Jon wakes up and other "wall falling" stuff happens. We are shown the people like Marsh, that the current way of NW thinking is highly skewed to the southron and Kings Landing way of thinking, which isn't necessarily the correct way.
• I agree that Jon is highly charged right now (not beyond reason), but he has weighed his options, is still listening to Tormund and even went to see Selyse then Mel after the Shieldhall/pink letter reading. He still was following certain "protocol". Sam could have been a help here if only to temper Jon's energy level, but with the threat to the watch by Ramsay, I think Jon would still act as he felt fit.
• Sam would never stick a dagger in Jon. There was a plan to rid Jon from the NW all the way back in Storm, Jon 7, and even before that when Marsh was sent to the wall. Marsh has a thing against the Starks in general because of Bob's Rebellion. The wildlings through the wall may have been the current excuse to stab Jon, but Sam saw the other, truer, side of the wildlings in Gilly (yes, there are some "bad" ones just as there are bad people south of the wall as well) and Sam was one of the only ones to experience a wight. Sam knows what danger lurks if the wall falls.
  • Sidenote: I think the wall falling is not literal... well, it could be soon, but I think the "wall" fell when Marsh destroyed the NW by plotting to have Jon, the Lord Commander, killed. I am sure if we peered through a myrish lens right now we would see a lot of disorganized chaos at the wall. What shitty timing and all caused by Marsh and friends.
• Besides, who is going to repair the broken bronze on the horn at the Citadel if Sam never leaves the wall?

[Targaryen Restoration]

Protecting the biggest criminal the north has ever seen, saving him from execution that he deserved many times over just so he can rescue Arya is a crime against the seven kingdoms and treason against the Night Watch.  Even Sam can see that.  I think Sam will do what he has done in the past:  talk sense into the emotional Mr. Jon Snow.  Maybe Sam will succeed in convincing Jon that the right thing to do is to forget about Arya.  If he failed to convince Jon, I think Samwell will use the same tactics he used to get Jon elected but this time to get Jon impeached and held for court martial even before the arrival of the famous pink letter.  In the end, if all else fails, I can see Sam joining Bowen Marsh and the other men who stabbed Jon.

[El Guapo]

If Samwell had stayed the Wall with Jon than hopefully he would have been shanked by Bowen & co. as well.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

33 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Protecting the biggest criminal the north has ever seen

When the eff Mance became the biggest criminal the North has never seen?  He wasn't my mistake. 

[Net-Viper X]

If Sam had still been at the wall, its most likely he would have been killed too. Jon is the only person of rank that gives a shit about Sam, while nearly everyone else seems to hate him. What better chance to kill Sam than when you plan to also kill his protector Jon?

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

 

Clearly you guys don't like each other.  So how about we stop replying to each other's comments and stop hijacking this threat with these immature antics.  

Thanks. 

I couldn't dislike somebody I have never met in person. Those types of emotions are impossible for me on a forum about books I love. 

I have however noticed more and more lately that this person has an awful attitude on here, treats people's opinions like dogshit for the simple reason they do not line up with hers, clashes with everybody unecessarily on every thread they are on, and is just one very immature person. That said, I couldn't ever dislike someone because of that. 

Infact I would see past it and still discuss the books with them if they could handle someone with a passionate, strong, well reasoned opinion like myself. 

I'll respect their decision though and won't lose sleep about the squabbles I'll not be having with them. But. If we chance to find ourselves on the same thread again and I see the same behaviour I've seen, I'll call it. If they truly want to not discuss, they wouldn't ever reply.

Sorry again to the OP, no disrespect was meant on my part.

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/22/2016 at 3:07 AM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Samwell was able to convince Jon to do the right thing before, twice.  Do you think Samwell could have stopped Jon's treasons (releasing the criminal Mance Rayder, sending Mance to rescue Arya, putting a wildling raiding party together to attack the Boltons) if he had remained at the Wall?  Maybe Jon was beyond reason at that point?  What could Samwell have done, short of sticking a dagger in Jon Snow?

Thanks

If sam stayed at the wall we would miss some Arya character development, we wouldn't meet Alleras, we wouldn't meet Marwyn and we won't have eyes in Oldtown when Euron tries to sack it 

[The Dew]

Sam would have tried to stop him and counsel him, but I don't believe Sam would have stabbed Jon. He would have discussed it a lot however and try and understand his reasoning. Sam would have distanced himself from Jon's assassins, or try to protect him. However we are talking of the Sam who has actually seen WW and killed one of them. He is neither Bowen Marsh nor Alistair Thorne, and of course not the walking joke Janos Slynt. Sam is the slayer, the craven turned hero. Now if such a ranging does not make a man like Sam stronger, and change him in other ways as well, then I don't know what can change him. For me there is a pre-ranging Sam and a post-ranging Sam, and these two are very different.

[Maxxine]

15 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Protecting the biggest criminal the north has ever seen, saving him from execution that he deserved many times over just so he can rescue Arya is a crime against the seven kingdoms and treason against the Night Watch.  Even Sam can see that.  I think Sam will do what he has done in the past:  talk sense into the emotional Mr. Jon Snow.  Maybe Sam will succeed in convincing Jon that the right thing to do is to forget about Arya.  If he failed to convince Jon, I think Samwell will use the same tactics he used to get Jon elected but this time to get Jon impeached and held for court martial even before the arrival of the famous pink letter.  In the end, if all else fails, I can see Sam joining Bowen Marsh and the other men who stabbed Jon.

Is it truly "right" to forget about your little sister (who you know is no older than 11) when you hear she is being married to a complete crazy person who is going rape and abuse her? Had he made the decision to simply not care even though there was a way he could have tried to help, would we really be saying he did the right thing? Yeah he would've kept his vows but would we really be applauding him for that? It's just like KG with Aerys. Yeah they kept their vows when they sat there and did nothing as he raped his wife and burned people, but do we really think they did the right thing? Are we applauding them for that? Or the KG with Joff. They were keeping their vows by following orders to slap Sansa around, but was that the right thing? 

I do think part of the reason a lot of people are so harsh on Jon for sending Mance to save Arya is because we as readers know she's not really Arya. If we didn't have the benefit of having Arya chapters and having 10 people point out that it's not Arya would people be more understanding?

Regardless of that, I don't think there's any way that Sam would participate in the plot to kill Jon even if he didn't agree with his actions. He has an incredible loyalty to Jon. Would he have tried to talk him out of it? Maybe, but kill him? Definitely not.

[Sydney Mae]

On 8/22/2016 at 6:07 AM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

Samwell was able to convince Jon to do the right thing before, twice.  Do you think Samwell could have stopped Jon's treasons (releasing the criminal Mance Rayder, sending Mance to rescue Arya, putting a wildling raiding party together to attack the Boltons) if he had remained at the Wall?  Maybe Jon was beyond reason at that point?  What could Samwell have done, short of sticking a dagger in Jon Snow?

Thanks

Stick a dagger in Jon Snow.  Jon can't be reasoned with.  Jon already knew that he was violating the rules of the Watch and that didn't stop him.  There was nothing Samwell could have done short of killing Jon or revealing his crime to the rest of the Watch.  Jon would not have stopped on his own.  He had to be forced to stop.

What would Sam do after Jon's execution?  The logical thing is to send Jon's head to Winterfell and prove to Ramsay that the Night Watch executed it's mad lord commander.  Let the lords of the north know that the Night Watch took care of its own internal problem.   Sam won't be able to carry this out, but he will see the logic behing it.  Bowen and the other men can take care of the head and getting it to the Boltons.

[Sydney Mae]

On 8/22/2016 at 8:20 PM, El Guapo said:

If Samwell had stayed the Wall with Jon than hopefully he would have been shanked by Bowen & co. as well.

 

He would have if he had tried to prevent the execution.  But I believe Samwell would have either joined the executioners and with teary eyes, stab Jon in the heart while murmuring, "For the watch"  or stay out of it and let Bowen handle the situation.

[Ser Creighton]

14 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

If sam stayed at the wall we would miss some Arya character development, we wouldn't meet Alleras, we wouldn't meet Marwyn and we won't have eyes in Oldtown when Euron tries to sack it 

True. Still a big fan of the what if's I see. To be clear you don't think Sam would of slid down from the top of the wall like Legolas in the Lord of the Rings shooting his bow really quickly killing Jon's assailants? I have to ask because we just don't know. Anything could of happened with this guy, Killed and Other with a rock and a Wight with some kindling.