HBO's Westworld(v3)- The man in black fled across the desert, and we all followed. [spoilers]

[Astromech]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

Apparently someone asked on Reddit what Delos does with all Delores's paintings and Nolan posted this .gif

http://imgur.com/a/fPLbE#Sewqpdt

Also I never really thought about it before, but why the hazmat suits when they're collecting damaged hosts and stuff? They don't seem to think exposure to "dead" hosts is a danger to the guests. 

Have you seen what the guests do to hosts? I wouldn't touch them without a hazmat suit either

Referring back to (I believe it was Theda who mentioned it.) clues sprinkled throughout the epsiodes, there was a Reddit post about the Judas steer Dolores mentioned in an earlier episode. Is that an obvious hint? After reading the post I thought about which of the characters could be a Judas steer and there are several possibilities, even young Robert when he appears before MiB, Lawrence and Teddy.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I definitely thought the changes to Maeve were from Arnold and I also think an agent of Arnold is behind Elsie's kidnap. Really big on that one. 

Maybe Wyatt?

[Fragile Bird]

@Theda Baratheon and @karaddin

I knew I disagreed with your suggestion that the outside world consists of the rich and the very rich few and the rest of the world is relatively poor, but I had to find the proof.  At the end of Episode 5, Contrapasso, you remember, the MiB and Teddy walk into a saloon and are joined, to the MiB's surprise, by Ford. They chat, and the MiB asks Ford if he is going to prevent him from getting to the centre of the maze.  Ford asks him what he's looking for, and in reply he turns to Teddy, and says to him:

"...the world out there, the one you never see, is one of plenty, fat soft teats people cling to their entire lives, every need taken care of, except one. Purpose, meaning...so that's why they come here...."

My interpretation is that this is a world where there are leaders, including leaders of industry, who are very wealthy, yes, but almost everyone else is very well taken care of.  The underclass, the worker class, must be relatively small.  The technician caught by Elsie screwing the dead bot body before tossing it in the incinerator does say he needs the job though.

Sylvester said to Felix in the same episode "personality tests should have weeded you out in the embryo", when he mocks Felix for being so afraid when Maeve moves. I wonder if he was just mocking him, or if in fact the underclass population numbers are strictly controlled.

BTW, has anyone talked about Felix and Sylvestor's names?  They are both well known cartoon cats.  An inside joke?  A hint?

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

Have you seen what the guests do to hosts? I wouldn't touch them without a hazmat suit either

Referring back to (I believe it was Theda who mentioned it.) clues sprinkled throughout the epsiodes, there was a Reddit post about the Judas steer Dolores mentioned in an earlier episode. Is that an obvious hint? After reading the post I thought about which of the characters could be a Judas steer and there are several possibilities, even young Robert when he appears before MiB, Lawrence and Teddy.

Except young Robert doesn't lead them anywhere, which is what the Judas goat (it's usually a goat) does.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

3 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Also lobotomizing her is damaging hugely expensive ''hardware'' or ''date'' or whatever you want to call it and these people aren't important, there's probably hundreds of people who could quickly replace them, who would love to have their job inside Westworld. By living in Westworld they probably live on site, get nice accomodation, probably eat quite well. 

I have a thought that the world outside Westworld has lots of overcrowded cities, with lower income people very poor and without great opportunities. 

Also...I'm sorry but THIS makes NO sense WHATSOEVER. 

How on earth does it add up that because the insanely wealthy can afford a ridiculously expensive holiday that poverty doesn't exist elsewhere? Like, please, tell me lmao 

I get the sense that the world outside is Utopian and a place like that exists to give people a release. Didn't the MiB mention that people have gotten soft and are looking for purpose? Trying to provide for a family gives a sense of purpose and prevents people from becoming soft. 

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

@Theda Baratheon and @karaddin

I knew I disagreed with your suggestion that the outside world consists of the rich and the very rich few and the rest of the world is relatively poor, but I had to find the proof.  At the end of Episode 5, Contrapasso, you remember, the MiB and Teddy walk into a saloon and are joined, to the MiB's surprise, by Ford. They chat, and the MiB asks Ford if he is going to prevent him from getting to the centre of the maze.  Ford asks him what he's looking for, and in reply he turns to Teddy, and says to him:

"...the world out there, the one you never see, is one of plenty, fat soft teats people cling to their entire lives, every need taken care of, except one. Purpose, meaning...so that's why they come here...."

My interpretation is that this is a world where there are leaders, including leaders of industry, who are very wealthy, yes, but almost everyone else is very well taken care of.  The underclass, the worker class, must be relatively small.  The technician caught by Elsie screwing the dead bot body before tossing it in the incinerator does say he needs the job though.

Sylvester said to Felix in the same episode "personality tests should have weeded you out in the embryo", when he mocks Felix for being so afraid when Maeve moves. I wonder if he was just mocking him, or if in fact the underclass population numbers are strictly controlled.

BTW, has anyone talked about Felix and Sylvestor's names?  They are both well known cartoon cats.  An inside joke?  A hint?

Yeah, that was my take on things as well.  Sure, there are still super rich people, but in general, humans are well taken care of in terms of basic needs and then some.  

Felix and Sylvester seems too obvious to be an accident, so I would guess it's some kind of hint or has some meta meaning.

[Astromech]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Except young Robert doesn't lead them anywhere, which is what the Judas goat (it's usually a goat) does.

Ah, but it was after them meeting young Robert that the MiB realized Teddy was more important than Lawrence for his search. Perhaps then young Robert did lead the MiB in a direction.

[Fragile Bird]

2 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Ah, but it was after them meeting young Robert that the MiB realized Teddy was more important than Lawrence for his search. Perhaps then young Robert did lead the MiB in a direction.

I just re-watched the episode, and I don't think so.  The MiB already has Teddy, who's in bad shape. They stop and he takes Teddy off the horse. Then Young Robert comes along, and the MiB looks at him, smiles, and sends him off for water, telling him Teddy needs it to stay alive, and saying to Lawrence, 'too small'.  The first time I saw this I couldn't understand the scene, or why he killed Lawrence and drained his blood. Now I just realized he gave the blood to Teddy so that he would live, since he had lost a lot of blood.  He would have let Lawrence live if Young Robert had been a little older. "Too small": not enough blood.

[Astromech]

Sure young Robert is a stretch. Other hosts or even guests are better potential Judas steers, if one actually exists in the story. The most likely may be Dolores leading William to the church in her "dreams".

 

There was another Reddit theory loosely based on the William=MiB/two time periods. A poster made a case for everything on the series occurring at the same time, but Ford's new story is based on the critical failure mentioned 35 years ago and therefore it is repeating the past with Dolores playing herself and William as a unknowing stand-in for the MiB. Interesting theory, but I really hope the William=MiB  theory is proven false. I simply don't like when showrrunners get too cutesy. The increasing sentience of the hosts and the underlying issues associated with it are more than interesting enough.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

One issue that I have is that someone else appears to help them become sentient. 

[karaddin]

I don't really see the "every need taken care of except for purpose" statement to be proof of anything other than basic biological needs. Needs are far from desires and there are many ways life could be awful without it being physical deprivation of biological needs. Its also a very subjective statement from someone with very extreme views on the world.  His statement very much seems restricted to the class that can afford to go to Westworld anyway - "that's why they come here". I just don't see how Westworld can possibly exist in a capitalist society where most could afford this level of luxury. Its clearly depicted as being obscenely expensive to go to, and to run.

[DMC]

Haven't read most recent replies.  Will just say, Nolan and Joy better have something good set up for Maeve that justifies poor Thandie Newton sitting/laying down in her birthday suit for such an elongated period of time.  It's not being PC - there needs to be a rational explanation why those two kids didn't simply put her stats down to zero and, subsequently, why she is enabled to pursue her current goals beyond "because I've died a lot."

Other than that, look forward to the push forward and trust in Jonah delivering with most of the remaining threads out there.  My only worry is if the "real world" aspect of the thing is relegated solely to a corporate espionage story.  Elsie, and Theresa for that matter, deserves more than that.

[Gertrude]

39 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

there needs to be a rational explanation why those two kids didn't simply put her stats down to zero

That's actually a good point. I'm guessing it has to do with Felix being scared about Maeve seeing him with the bird. In for a penny, in for a pound. Even if he shuts her down to zero, he'd have to explain why, and the higher ups would examine her so she'd be able to tell on him. The first step didn't seem so bad and before he knew it he was in too deep.

I've been rewatching and I'm more convinced than ever that MiB is William. I wasn't really seeing the purpose of Teddy beyond a vague idea that he tethered Dolores to her loop, but Ford flat out says that, so issue solved for me. Much like Elsie explaining that the hosts' backstories ground them, and why Bernard has a deceased son.

[Theda Baratheon]

I just gave loads of reasons why theyd (Felix and Sylvester) would be helping Maeve...

Also 

8 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

@Theda Baratheon and @karaddin

I knew I disagreed with your suggestion that the outside world consists of the rich and the very rich few and the rest of the world is relatively poor, but I had to find the proof.  At the end of Episode 5, Contrapasso, you remember, the MiB and Teddy walk into a saloon and are joined, to the MiB's surprise, by Ford. They chat, and the MiB asks Ford if he is going to prevent him from getting to the centre of the maze.  Ford asks him what he's looking for, and in reply he turns to Teddy, and says to him:

"...the world out there, the one you never see, is one of plenty, fat soft teats people cling to their entire lives, every need taken care of, except one. Purpose, meaning...so that's why they come here...."

My interpretation is that this is a world where there are leaders, including leaders of industry, who are very wealthy, yes, but almost everyone else is very well taken care of.  The underclass, the worker class, must be relatively small.  The technician caught by Elsie screwing the dead bot body before tossing it in the incinerator does say he needs the job though.

Sylvester said to Felix in the same episode "personality tests should have weeded you out in the embryo", when he mocks Felix for being so afraid when Maeve moves. I wonder if he was just mocking him, or if in fact the underclass population numbers are strictly controlled.

BTW, has anyone talked about Felix and Sylvestor's names?  They are both well known cartoon cats.  An inside joke?  A hint?

 

8 hours ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I get the sense that the world outside is Utopian and a place like that exists to give people a release. Didn't the MiB mention that people have gotten soft and are looking for purpose? Trying to provide for a family gives a sense of purpose and prevents people from becoming soft. 

I remember this scene very well but much like @karaddin said we know this is a man of extreme opinions. We also know he isn't the most empathetic, he could be talking about his own class, having no real knowledge or sympathy/empathy for lower classes. Higher and lower classes may be very separate, kept apart. 

All I know is no way in helll am I getting utopian vibes from the outside world. 

I just saw it as the rich are very rich and subsequently very bored.

And I also touched on what Sylvester said to Felix before...about screening him in the embryo. What if free will is rare in the outside world? People are almost programmed like hosts or at least tested and determined to only be allowed to work in certain professions. Hard to progress through comanies, very little social mobility. 

The westworld job is obviously very important no one is that desperate about losing a job of the world is a utopia. 

Are basic emotions like fear and love and excitement as widespread in the outside world. 

Something is bringing people toWestworld, but only a FEW people...40k a day is only basic fees...go to the westworld website and try and book yourself a holiday and you'll see it's almost 1 million for your vacation. 

This isn't your standard theme park, we know that, but it's only for the 1 percent. No one else can afford to go there. No wonder they're losing money 

[Fragile Bird]

Ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I would only point out you have no evidence to base your opinions on about wide-spread poverty in the outside world (except our world) and there is evidence from a character's mouth that the world is one of plenty.

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I would only point out you have no evidence to base your opinions on about wide-spread poverty in the outside world (except our world) and there is evidence from a character's mouth that the world is one of plenty.

That's fair  But i'm just as soon point out this is a man who lacks empathy.

Also it's a common thing for the rich to dismiss the poor. Happens all the time now, why not in this world? 

I think you're over simplifying our theory a bit as well. It's not as simple as wide-spread poverty. I have a pretty complex idea of what is happening outside of the park, even if it's in crackpot territory I've only come up with it because of various clues throughout the show. I'm not really missing a lot of things because I'm rewatching the show A LOT. So it might turn out i'm TOTALLY wrong but I'm only coming up with things because of what the show is showing us so it's unfair to say I have ''no evidence'' when, in fact, I do. 

1) the fear over jobs 2) the line about screening felix in the embryo 3) how ridiculously expensive this park is says something about the people who can afford to go there 4) all the interactions between william and logan and william's little speech to dolores. 

I personally think you and others are putting too much emphasis on something said by a man who lacks empathy, could possible be talking about his class and the people who can afford to go to Westworld, NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE, and a man who, as an extremely wealthy person, could easily be dismissing the lives of the lower class. 

Personally I think people are possible housed and fed (MiN believing everyone has their needs met) and disease isn't so widespread (Ford), so it would stand to reason that populations can be high, and yet Westworld is HUGE so I think overcrowded cities might be a possibility. Where else are they getting the sheer space for this park if people don't predominantly live in the city. 

I think people are screened at a young age and are chosen which professions they are to go into with very little chance of social mobility and moving up the ranks of a job, note how excited Elsie was about the prospect of a promotion. She's a very smart, headstrong, young and confident young woman, you'd think a promotion would seem like it would naturally happen for her, it doesn't. 

So even if people are fed and housed, I think ''free will'' is a thing of the past. I don't think people have a lot of choice in this world. And even the rich who are fucking BORED go to Westworld. Where do the poor go? What do they do? 

I don't think this world can be as Utopian as some of you seem to think and I am basing all of my opinions on things that are happening in the show and piecing things together that make sense to me. 

I would NEVER have gotten the MiN theory by myself, I don't think so anyway! I just didn't occur to me, yet this is a MASSIVE theory that everyone is going on about and some people are going to feel ''cheated by'' if it doesn't happen or if it DOES happen. I don't know how my theories are anymore ridiculous than this one. In my opinion there's enough evidence for both. Near the same amount of evidence if people paid attention. 

But i'm totally aware I might be COMPLETELY wrong and if I AM I won't feel cheated, I won't insult the show for bad writing, because it was ME piecing together these ''clues'' so it's not the shows fault I have a crazy imagination. Same with MiN people shouldn't complain if it isn't true, because it's clues YOU'RE piecing together from little moments and pieces of dialogue, same as me, the show isn't bad if this theory doesn't come to fruition. Because at the moment, that's ALL it is,  A FAN THEORY. 

[Fragile Bird]

I've been trying to pick up as many clues as I can about the MiB. I would point at the scene where he and Teddy are with the outlaw group, at night, and a young Guest walks up to him and says something like "Sir, I recognized you and I just wanted to thank-you for the great work done by your foundation. My sister wouldn't be alive...". The MiB then tells him to shut up or he'll do harm to him. "I'm on vacation for fuck's sake".

That does not sound like a man who has no empathy for people.

The fact that he goes to the park to be a villain - he tells Robert, 'I always felt this place missed a real villain, hence my contribution' -is also a fact to consider as well, of course.

[Theda Baratheon]

20 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I've been trying to pick up as many clues as I can about the MiB. I would point at the scene where he and Teddy are with the outlaw group, at night, and a young Guest walks up to him and says something like "Sir, I recognized you and I just wanted to thank-you for the great work done by your foundation. My sister wouldn't be alive...". The MiB then tells him to shut up or he'll do harm to him. "I'm on vacation for fuck's sake".

That does not sound like a man who has no empathy for people.

The fact that he goes to the park to be a villain - he tells Robert, 'I always felt this place missed a real villain, hence my contribution' -is also a fact to consider as well, of course.

Well, that line and the man who comes up to MiB are big obvious things that happen in the show and i'd be surprised if ANYONE missed that. I still think, even if he is the CEO of a company that can save others (possibly only rich people who can afford it) that it changes much of what I was saying about him. 

The man was in Westworld so he is RICH and as such, his sister is probably RICH. Still doesn't say anything about the people who aren't. 

[red snow]

the discussion about poverty in the future has me thinking a lot of you will enjoy "lazarus" if it ever gets out of the development stages. It's based on a comic where nations no longer exist outside of corporations and the population is divided into "population" (the 0.01%) "serfs" (who work for the population) and "waste" (the unemployed and utterly ignored majority). funnily enough it also has enhanced humans who are programmed to serve but may be showing signs of breaking free.

[Cas Stark]

I could be wrong, but I just don't think that poverty is a theme for Westworld, nor do I expect we're going to see much of the world outside of the park, and nor do I see the same things in the dialogue that some of you are seeing in terms of a world of haves/haves nots.  We'll see I guess.