Jump to content

Is it evil when Bran wargs into Hodor's mind?


aventador577

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Not evil no. Morally it's not right, but he's an eight year old kid who'd family have been murdered, his home destroyed and he's crippled for life.

:agree:

Also, he'll need the experience in the near future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think it's an abomination, and especially not in Bran's case.

There is always the possibility that Haggon sensed how powerful Varamyr was and also the danger of him realizing and giving rein to his full power and thus told him about the rules and added one or two in to impose limits on him that were never placed on anyone else before. 

But I don't see any way around it being wrong to invade someone else's mind. I don't think Bran is guilty of anything as a result though because he has been given no guidelines on this. If he knew it was wrong, he might never have done it, or at least only done it in emergencies like when they needed Hodor to be quiet at Queenscrown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Lash said:

It is an abomination.

I agree that it is an abomination like the books say. But Bran has not been trained yet and given the rules by Bloodraven. I think Bran is an innocent in breaking this rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I put this in the same category as kinslaying.  Cases in point Viserys & Tywin.   Viserys was mad and dangerous.   Tywin was simply scary and dangerous.  But they were both truly miserable to their family.  Do their killers deserve to be accursed?   I don't believe Jojen made any mention of skinchanging a person to Bran.  All we really have to go on is the Wildling edict.   Could be no one south of the Wall has ever inhabited another human skin.   It may simply be unheard of.   Common sense tells us this is a type of possession or rape even and we can imagine how utterly vulnerable we would be if such a thing happened in our minds.   To cap Bran's forays into Hodor's mind with an easy word like evil ignores the imperative and importance of Bran's actions in Hodor.   Bran is not evil.  He's not even mean.  He's a little boy who can sort of overcome his physical limitations by inhabiting Hodor.  Chances are this act is an abomination, but Bran can't be evil until he understands his actions are forbidden.  

As you ponder this quandary I suggest you lay the entire list out: 

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.  ADWD Prologue  

To mate as wolf with wolf?  Really? 

To eat of human flesh as an animal?   Really? 

Neither of these strike me, a vegan for all it's worth, as particularly abominable acts.  

Bran has eaten human flesh.   Given his circumstances there are plenty of folks who would at the brink of starvation happily eat an unknown meat.     

Then there is the very specific word seize in relation to another human.   Does Bran seize Hodor?  

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.  ADWD Bran 3

I'm not convinced that's a seizure so much as a borrowing.   Still Bran thinks to himself that no one must know.  Is it the creep factor or Martin giving this broken boy the opportunity to be the knight he dreamed of being?  Or just another grey character with mixed motives and actions? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There is always the possibility that Haggon sensed how powerful Varamyr was and also the danger of him realizing and giving rein to his full power and thus told him about the rules and added one or two in to impose limits on him that were never placed on anyone else before. 

But I don't see any way around it being wrong to invade someone else's mind. I don't think Bran is guilty of anything as a result though because he has been given no guidelines on this. If he knew it was wrong, he might never have done it, or at least only done it in emergencies like when they needed Hodor to be quiet at Queenscrown.

I agree with what you're saying about Varamyr and Haggon. We also know Varamyr was an arsehole and a horrible person. But I also think that there are situations where it's acceptable, and the main thing here is consent. 

And even though I don't blame Bran at all, I think skinchanging into someone like Hodor is a lot worse than into someone who doesn't have an intellectual disability. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I put this in the same category as kinslaying.  Cases in point Viserys & Tywin.   Viserys was mad and dangerous.   Tywin was simply scary and dangerous.  But they were both truly miserable to their family.  Do their killers deserve to be accursed?   I don't believe Jojen made any mention of skinchanging a person to Bran.  All we really have to go on is the Wildling edict.   Could be no one south of the Wall has ever inhabited another human skin.   It may simply be unheard of.   Common sense tells us this is a type of possession or rape even and we can imagine how utterly vulnerable we would be if such a thing happened in our minds.   To cap Bran's forays into Hodor's mind with an easy word like evil ignores the imperative and importance of Bran's actions in Hodor.   Bran is not evil.  He's not even mean.  He's a little boy who can sort of overcome his physical limitations by inhabiting Hodor.  Chances are this act is an abomination, but Bran can't be evil until he understands his actions are forbidden.  

Well said.

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As you ponder this quandary I suggest you lay the entire list out: 

Abomination. That had always been Haggon's favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.  ADWD Prologue  

To mate as wolf with wolf?  Really? 

:agree:

 

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

To eat of human flesh as an animal?   Really? 

Neither of these strike me, a vegan for all it's worth, as particularly abominable acts.  

Agree again, and ditto - even though at the mo I'm just a vegetarian! :P

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran has eaten human flesh.   Given his circumstances there are plenty of folks who would at the brink of starvation happily eat an unknown meat.     

I would, and again, vegetarian. 

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Then there is the very specific word seize in relation to another human.   Does Bran seize Hodor?  

The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.  ADWD Bran 3

I'm not convinced that's a seizure so much as a borrowing.   Still Bran thinks to himself that no one must know.  Is it the creep factor or Martin giving this broken boy the opportunity to be the knight he dreamed of being?  Or just another grey character with mixed motives and actions? 

I've said it before, but will repeat myself: Bran will need to know how to skinchange into a person, and soon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In general yes. Just look at the description of Hodor cowering inside like a beaten dog. It's mind rape plain and simple. In typical GRRM fashion however it is at times the right thing to do in order to save people. If Hodor was in full possession of his faculties he'd Hulk Smash virtually everyone, but since he isn't and Bran is crippled, when shit hits the fan it's either that or let everyone die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with what I think the majority are saying. It's a horrible thing to do to someone and morally wrong. As a child without guidance, however, Bran can't process this. His handicap makes this even harder to resist, even though he knows Hodor doesn't like it. I think evil is a strong word and won't take it that far, but it is wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't blame Bran entirely for this, however. He needs guidance here that he's not getting. He does deserve some blame, however, as he knows it's wrong on some level, but he's likely thinking of it on the level of stealing sweets from the kitchen because he knows he doesn't have any ill intent.

In an extreme situation of self defense, I'd find it hard to say he was wrong to do so. Kind of like murder. Murder is wrong, but in self-defense it is justifiable. The problem comes in trying to define self-defense. Proactively possessing Hodor in a dangerous situation is a slippery thing and can become too easily normalized.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In most cases, it would be considered pretty cruel. And in most of the cases that we see on screen, and read in the books, Bran warging into Hodor is horrible. Hodor is consciously aware of what's happening and exhibits clear signs of resistance, out of not wanting to be warged into. Sometimes when Bran wargs into Hodor, its even in rather dangerous situations in order to ensure his own safety over Hodor's own safety. So, yes, without any exceptions, it is a cruel thing for Bran to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At first Bran enters into Hodor's mind out of necessity to quiet him when they are in danger so as not to call attention to their group and it is obviously not a pleasant experience for Hodor.  Bran was not aware that he had this ability before then and he appears to be aware of the fact that entering Hodor's mind fucked him up.  Later, when they are set upon by wights, Bran again enters Hodor's mind out of necessity to defend their group.  But later, once they have been in the caves for a while, Bran enters Hodor's mind to explore the massive cave system below the cave of the Three- Eyed Crow seemingly out of boredom and in those more casual circumstances it did seem like more of a violation when I read it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The amount of people saying it's fine, and would fuck wolves, and eat human flesh is mind boggling. The only time I feel like it's "OK" is to save their lives (the tower and outside BR's cave come to mind). When Bran just wants to explore caves or walk? Insanely selfish. I don't buy the argument he's 8 and doesn't know better; Hodor let's him know every time he's miserable being mind raped. Bran wants to walk around and be strong, great. I'm sure Hodor would like to say some new words. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...