Lady Fevre Dream

[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

517 posts in this topic

Im very disappoint Bron survived.

 

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5 minutes ago, falcotron said:
  • The two discussions about Meraxes are exactly how we know that the only way to hurt a dragon is with a bolt in the eye: their scales are impervious to anything short of another dragon's claws, but they're vulnerable there. Tyrion explicitly says that all the books he's read agree that they cannot be shot in the throat, underbelly, or joints as the old wives' tales say, the eyes are the only target.
  • If you don't want to use the books, D&D used exactly the same "scales are impervious" wording in S5 interviews about why Drogon was stabbable then but won't be once he's grown.
  • The point of heavy artillery is that people in this world have had it for centuries, and fought wars against massive swarms of dragons; if it had worked against dragons, they would have used it, and no one did.
  • Dothraki charging a shield wall is surprising when they have a break they could just charge through. What kind of idiot spurs his horse at a set spear, rather than at an open gap full of people to chop up? With the Unsullied, they didn't have that choice. And besides, the reason people remember that they learned that lesson after 12 tries is that they learned that lesson and don't do that anymore. They'll actually avoid fighting—the only time they ever do so—when they see an Unsullied shield wall. But the Lannisters do the same thing, and they just close their eyes and charge their horses at the pointy end and hope for the best? Of course it worked for them, but there's no plausible reason it should have; a writer giving characters stupid tactics because he doesn't understand tactics is not justified by those stupid tactics working because he doesn't understand tactics.
  • What kind of bodyguards do the Dothraki have besides the khal(eesi)'s bloodriders, who are also his/her commanders?

 

My point about Meraxes was that a ballista can bring a dragon down, in response to your question of using such a weapon to begin with. Which also applies to your comment about people not using artillery against dragons in the past. Since Meraxes died 300 years ago, I would say that there were people who used such weapons long ago. Also, it may be that in this world such artillery pieces are not so old. The Rhoynar had water wizards, and maybe they lacked the mechanical ingenuity to develop ballistae.

It's also doubtful that the khalasar that lost to the Unsullied would have passed on the knowledge to other khalasars, (that happened long ago) or that other khalasars would even heed that lesson. But we do know that even in present day the Dothraki have no respect for foot soldiers.

The show has completely done away with bloodriders, from what I can tell. Those guys are the same guys that have been guarding Dany this season so far, so maybe she lent them to Tyiron, as she didn't need them.  

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After ranting about the battle, and the Jon-Dany scene, I really liked the rest of the episode (and, actually, I really liked the battle too), but there are still things to point out that bugged me because I'm a nerd:

  • The cave paintings should have mentioned the Last Hero, the guy who brought the Children and the First Men together. That's the obvious way to confirm that Old Nan's stories were right. Which I suspect the show isn't going to bother doing, but I wish it would.
  • Tyrion's "Good news, everyone! We took Casterly Rock! … pause …" was the most annoying of these delayed reveals I can remember seeing. I always hate how unnatural this is (unless we're really meant to believe that Tyrion is intentionally being a jackass to make his Queen even angrier than she otherwise would be), but at least I can grudgingly accept the fact that writers use it for dramatic purposes—but this time, we know what's coming, Dany knows it 5 seconds later, and we don't even get to see the reveal, so there is absolutely no dramatic purpose.
  • Dany, after refusing to ally with Jon at least so far, insists that he and Davos listen in on her most sensitive strategic discussions. So now she either has to ally with him or kill him.
  • Dany still has the largest army, even with the Reach switching sides. Which is fine, but… does that mean you can house 100000+ soldiers (many of them with horses) on Dragonstone, an island that apparently has no smallfolk living there?
  • I enjoyed Arya water-dancing around and under Brienne's blade, even if Arya's skill is a bit implausible. But parrying it was ridiculous. She can't possibly deliver enough force to meaningfully deflect an overhand blow from that sword by that woman with Needle. Plus, the only reason they're doing it is to add some boring generic sabre-on-sabre fencing moves to what was otherwise a far more interesting match to watch. Why get it wrong just to make it more boring?
  • "King Snow. No, that doesn't sound right. King Jon?" Any mentally-challenged American 6-year-old knows that Kings go by their given (or regnal) name, not their surname. We're supposed to believe that Davos, long-time hand to King Baratheon—oops, I mean Stannis—doesn't?
  • Dickon bringing up the fact that he killed people he's grown up with—OK, not really a nit for 704 as a big rant for 703, but this was exactly why Jaime or Tarly should have parleyed and asked for a surrender first, instead of charging the wall and killing lots of people who might now otherwise be on their side.
  • I mentioned Dany burninating all the food that was the whole point of the battle as part of the battle, but I'm mentioning it again.

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Posted (edited)

One more rant:

  • The forums worked perfectly all through the live-viewing comments, but then broke shortly after the rant thread went up. :)

 

Edited by falcotron
Duplicate post because of forum server fun.

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Bronn's plot armour is impressive. Maybe HE'S The Prince that was Promised.

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I am not fond of Dany's steamroller attitude toward Jon constantly demanding he bend the knee. She is absolutely pig headed and menacing to her only real ally. Though this manner of hers is true to her character and her family reputation, plus it has always worked for her in the past. She has never been up against a Stark or Westerosi in this regard and does not appreciate that she can't just make her demands and get them met. In the past we weren't invested in the characters she bulldozed and now we are invested in Jon Snow.  I'm like, "don't talk to Jon like that!' with my indignation. Dany knows nothing of diplomacy.

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Although I did love this episode, I have to say Jamie falling into the "bottomless puddle" (kudos to weavves on /r/asoiaf for coining that) was a bit much.  I understand they are trying to mimic Tyrion being pulled down by the Stonemen in "Valyria" but really.  Did you see where Drogon and Dany were?  How was that water so deep....

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1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

My point about Meraxes was that a ballista can bring a dragon down

It's also doubtful that the khalasar that lost to the Unsullied would have passed on the knowledge to other khalasars, (that happened long ago) or that other khalasars would even heed that lesson. But we do know that even in present day the Dothraki have no respect for foot soldiers.

The show has completely done away with bloodriders, from what I can tell. Those guys are the same guys that have been guarding Dany this season so far, so maybe she lent them to Tyiron, as she didn't need them.  

Look, if you want to use Meraxes as an argument for bolts being able to take down dragons, you have to accept the same passage as an argument that bolts to the shoulder won't have any effect on dragons. The only way to make sense of this is that D&D fundamentally changed the rules between S5 and S7, just so they could write this scene. Which is something worthy of pointing out in a rant-and-rave thread.

"No respect for foot soldiers" does not translate into "charge at set spears for no good reason". Most people have little to no respect for farmers as soldiers, but that doesn't mean I'm going to aim my neck at a scythe instead of ducking under it, going inside it, knocking it away, or going around. It's stupid. Like most movie and TV tactics. The fact that the battle was still fun doesn't mean the stupid tactics aren't stupid.

The show hasn't done away with the concept of bloodriders. They just discussed it at the end of S6: Dany declared that because she has a khalasar of khalasars, every Dothraki is now her bloodrider, or something like that.

Finally, why are you trying to argue about this stuff? The whole point of rant-and-rave threads is to not argue about rants, but you're picking things that I described as minor nitpicks and trying to defend them as though the possibility that the show might have even minor flaws is a life-or-death matter. Do you seriously believe that dragons have always been easily shot down by a classical-era weapon hitting them almost anywhere, and all the in-universe history in both the books and the show was wrong about that? Or are you just trying to start a fight for some reason?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I do love it when Lannisters die. Too bad the Imp, Jaime and Cersei are still alive though, personally, I would love to see Dany burn the imp like her daddy did to his other Hands that were failures. This will never happen though but the thought is lovely to me. Jaime has no honor and is devoted to his sister's crotch. This should disturb everyone who knows anything about this show. Thoroughly disgusting and wrong in every way. Incest is bad and willing practitioners should not be applauded in real life or make believe makes not difference.

Yes to all of this. I'm down to just illustrations for book scenes from the show, since everyone is behaving so out of character. But I would have liked to see Drogon take Cersei out with a precise dragon blast.

(Also Littlefinger should be dead already.)

Edited by Le Cygne

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I've already ranted once, but God knows I need to do it again

YES GUYS, the gold made it into King's Landing offscreen. Randyll Tarly explicitly says it. This is how far the BS writing has come to: the plot urges for Cersei to have the upper hand because evil is good, but at the same time we needed Dragon battle because well, it's been seven years of setup. So they went for the easy route: Drogon burned the Lannister army, but Cersei will buy a new one. Ta-daaaa!!!

Imagine how incredible it would have been for Bronn to have died with that ballista. But no. The Lannister plot armor is too heavy, not even Drogon and the dothraki horde can break it.

I'm not mad at the Stark scenes at all, yes Arya's skills are BS, yes Littlefinger doesn't make any sense at this point, but the "Cersei is the greater ruler" arc is so so SO badly written that all the mess happening elsewhere doesn't bother me AT ALL.

 

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Oh and by the way. Can we officialy predict that Varys and Tyrion will turn on Daenerys? They haven't been any subtle with that IMO. Because apparently, in this show, Cersei can burn the fucking vatican killing a lot of innocent people (guys, she DESTROYED THE MAIN RELIGION OF WESTEROS AND ITS POPE-equivalent) but Daenerys can't use her dragons or essosi army and she suddenly is the mad queen ohhh she is dangerous.

You see, this thing works when she is fighting her nephew Aegon Targaryen in the books because HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING CLOSE to that. But then you're comparing her to Cersei, you would think no one in Westeros would be mad at her, as Cersei is far more vicious than Daenerys could be (Olenna Tyrell schooled us time and again as how Cersei is a monster, it's amazing how people forget quickly).

The lords and common folk of Westeros have 4 kings/queens to choose currently:

1) Daenerys - outsider, essosi army, dragons, mad queen blah blah

2) Cersei - the incestuous queen, who never cared for the common people, who killed the queen that cared for the common people, who killed the High Septon that cared for the people, who blew up an enormous part of King's Landing (and YES everybody knows it, from Hot Pie to the bravosi banker they all know it was her doing), and yet the one who seems to be the favourite to the lords and common folk. Talk about bad writing. They gave Aegon's arc to Cersei and it is BAD

3) Jon - as far as everyone knows this guy betrayed his vows to the Night's Watch and therefore he should be killed, period. 

4) Euron - kinslayer. Not that anyone cares apparently. Also he gave up his personality in order to become Cersei's grunt, so maybe he shouldn't be on this list anymore.

I guess everybody is missing Stannis at this point. And this is the guy who burned people alive. 

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

 

  • I mentioned Dany burninating all the food that was the whole point of the battle as part of the battle, but I'm mentioning it again.

Yup, that was one of the dumbest aspects of the battle.  All the Lannisters neatly lined up and she gets Drogon to burn the supply wagons instead.  Smart move...

PS Where were the other two dragons?

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2 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

I do have to agree with this. The show is artificially setting Cersei up for every single win she can manage. It was my gripe with last week's entire episode. Everything that happened was done to put Cersei in a place that was ridiculous and so artificially crafted. The gold managing to make it to KL before the army is added to this, at the beginning of the episode when they kept saying "If the gold makes it/when the gold makes it." I thought for sure that Dany would end up catching it enroute and burning it all. But then...it still made it. 

Like you said they are in love with Cersei and know that she is the villain the fans love and they are artificially strengthening her position to make the showdown bigger between her and Dany. And it's ridiculous. 

Thank you friend. You translated my feelings even better than I could. I'm just way too pissed.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes to all of this. I'm down to just illustrations for book scenes from the show, since everyone is behaving so out of character. But I would have liked to see Drogon take Cersei out with a precise dragon blast.

and she should but instead, we have watched in the first 4 episodes, the plot armor of Cersei Brotherfucker grow and grow. She does not need that food, she will let the people of King's Landing Starve and take their food for her vast, increasing and loyal armies. Hell, the way the show is written now a days, they people will love her even more for it. Seriously, they went off books after season 4 (was off a little before but they went REALLY OFF then) and the writing has been crap ever since. Disguised as best they can with expensive cgi but still a bullshit bonanza.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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didnt read all if some one point it out before i adhere to him/her but WTF kaleesee you could have destroyed half a soldiers line in a single HORIZONTAL pass, jesus girl flanking is the most basic military tactic. put you shit together. 

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2 hours ago, direwoofwoof said:

What about the cave drawings? That seemed very convenient for Jon... here, believe my story because we found these ancient drawings that show you the army of the Dead are real. They even had blue paint for the eyes those clever children of the forest... is there even a forest on Dragonstone?

A few show only people asked about that at my house, I was impressed. Why would the Children ever have been on Dragonstone? 

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8 minutes ago, Paid Debt Lannister said:

Oh and by the way. Can we officialy predict that Varys and Tyrion will turn on Daenerys? They haven't been any subtle with that IMO. Because apparently, in this show, Cersei can burn the fucking vatican killing a lot of innocent people (guys, she DESTROYED THE MAIN RELIGION OF WESTEROS AND ITS POPE-equivalent) but Daenerys can't use her dragons or essosi army and she suddenly is the mad queen ohhh she is dangerous.

You see, this thing works when she is fighting her nephew Aegon Targaryen in the books because HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING CLOSE to that. But then you're comparing her to Cersei, you would think no one in Westeros would be mad at her, as Cersei is far more vicious than Daenerys could be (Olenna Tyrell schooled us time and again as how Cersei is a monster, it's amazing how people forget quickly).

The lords and common folk of Westeros have 4 kings/queens to choose currently:

1) Daenerys - outsider, essosi army, dragons, mad queen blah blah

2) Cersei - the incestuous queen, who never cared for the common people, who killed the queen that cared for the common people, who killed the High Septon that cared for the people, who blew up an enormous part of King's Landing (and YES everybody knows it, from Hot Pie to the bravosi banker they all know it was her doing), and yet the one who seems to be the favourite to the lords and common folk. Talk about bad writing. They gave Aegon's arc to Cersei and it is BAD

3) Jon - as far as everyone knows this guy betrayed his vows to the Night's Watch and therefore he should be killed, period. 

4) Euron - kinslayer. Not that anyone cares apparently. Also he gave up his personality in order to become Cersei's grunt, so maybe he shouldn't be on this list anymore.

I guess everybody is missing Stannis at this point. And this is the guy who burned people alive. 

yep

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5 minutes ago, SerProle said:

A few show only people asked about that at my house, I was impressed. Why would the Children ever have been on Dragonstone? 

Plot twist: Jon is the one who drew that offscreen in order to fool Dany

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*One of the most un-GoT episodes ever. We have a major battle with no major characters experiencing a personal loss. Bullshit copout. 

*When did all the dothraki dudes become pretty boys? 

*Tyrion and the others advising Dany to NOT burn all the food would've been a good thing.

*Dany really needs to teach her dragons some other commands. She should start with directions. For instance, "left" would've come in VERY handy this episode.

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You know what, at this point all there is to root for is that they elect Cersei as the ultimate commander against the WW. Then maybe humanity stands a chance. And then she locks Daenerys and Jon in a cell and we can get some torture porn. Show ends with she blowing everyone in KL and Tyrion becomes king

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