Risto

Discussing Sansa XXX: Sun and Moon

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3 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

The dynamic between Arya and Sansa is going to be an interesting one. They've always been two very different souls but I feel like now more than ever those differences are going to drive them apart. Personally I'm worried that this will mean Arya leaving Winterfell behind for good, but I just don't see how a happy relationship can develop between Arya and Sansa after all they've both been through. 

I disagree. I think their experiences, both horrific but different, could be something that brings them closer. I dont really see the show focusing on thir relationship much though. They will probably only have a few more exchanges of dialogue for remainder of shows run.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, princess_snow said:

To be honest I found it difficult to read what Sansa was feeling thinking just before she walked off too. I asked my partner what he thought and he couldn't tell either.

 

At first I read it as jealousy, yet why would she be jealous ? Didn't seem to fit with the storyline for her etc.

Now I think its the realisation that Arya meant what she said about her list. Not really sure.

:unsure:

  

I don't think Sansa is exactly  jelous of Arya. My take is that Sansa at first looked just interested in what was happening down in the courtyard, but then you can look how her facial expression changed when she heard Arya saying

"You swore to serve both my mother's daughters, didn't you?"

Sansa seemed troubled that LF heard that... Brienne is known by LF as one of Sansa's great assets. Do you remember when she said to him back in season 6  "I just could tell Brienne to kill you"? Well, now LF knows that Brienne is not just Sansa's, and that in a possible struggle between the sisters is not so sure what Brienne would do. And this is a weakness he can exploit, try to make them turn against each other.... in short, try to do what LF does.

When he called Bran "Lord Stark", he was testing him too. He knows that Sansa loves being "Lady Stark", so it wansn't him just being polite, he was trying to find a crack between the siblings that he can potentially make  it play out in his favour.

Sansa knows LF , but fears her siblings don't. She also showed worryness about LF giving the dagger to Bran, for the same reason.  Then she sees Arya fighting at a level that can match Brienne, and LF is right there to see it too. Not the most reassuring thing.

Edited by LucyMormont

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8 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

I don't think Sansa is exactly  jelous of Arya. My take is that Sansa at first looked just interested in what was happening down in the courtyard, but then you can look how her facial expression changed when she heard Arya saying

"You swore to serve both my mother's daughters, didn't you?"

Sansa seemed troubled that LF heard that... Brienne is known by LF as one of Sansa's great assets. Do you remember when she said to him back in season 6  "I just could tell Brienne to kill you"? Well, now LF knows that Brienne is not just Sansa's, and that in a possible struggle between the sisters is not so sure what Brienne would do. And this is a weakness he can exploit, try to make them turn against each other.... in short, try to do what LF does.

When he called Bran "Lord Stark", he was testing him too. He knows that Sansa loves being "Lady Stark", so it wansn't him just being polite, he was trying to find a crack between the siblings that he can potentially make  it play out in his favour.

Sansa knows LF , but fears her siblings don't. She also showed worryness about LF giving the dagger to Bran, for the same reason.  Then she sees Arya fighting at a level that can match Brienne, and LF is right there to see it too. Not the most reassuring thing.

Fair points. I didn't think of it like that. I knew LF was testing Bran though.

 

I feel like Bran gave Arya that dagger knowing she will eventually kill LF.

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12 minutes ago, princess_snow said:

I feel like Bran gave Arya that dagger knowing she will eventually kill LF.

I agree. It was a nice touch that he gaves it to her just after talking about Arya's list

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I don't see the Sansa as jealous of Arya's skills. I think we had a very nice evolution of Sansa's views on Arya and her list. First, when they meet, in the crypts, Sansa laughingly disregards it.In the godswood, she begins to be curious about the idea, so when she sees Arya fighting, I think she realizes that Arya is actually quite serious and that she is capable of doing things Sansa herself so easily disregarded. 

It is so interesting to see Sansa in Winterfell constantly running towards her siblings. With both the Bran and Arya, she was the one who initiated the hug. It just speaks about the connection to her family, the strength she draws from it. We have seen what happened to Sansa when she is isolated. I feel that her role in WF won't be only to deal with LF or organize the North for the coming winter. We saw her rebuilding the Winterfell in Season 4. I feel she will be the "glue" to stick the broken family together.

I also feel as if Ms Turner has mastered the art of playing someone whom we can't read. Whether it is intentional, and I believe it can be, or whether she is just bad at projecting some emotions, it remains to be seen. But, for the story, it is nice to have her so unreadable. We are lacking real suspense this season and she provides some of it. 

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I loved the Sansa/Arya reunion. In general it's great to see multiple Starks back at their home. And things like Daenerys flying her dragon into battle to win back the seven kingdoms.

The show might have it's logical and creative flaws, it's horrible, horrible flaws, but at least it is delivering all those things that were promised to us in the very beginning of ASoIaF, unlike the books

Now I have been a Sansa fan since I first met her character and I have been hoping and waiting for a happy reunion between her and Arya ever since. But I have to agree with those that saw jealousy when Sansa was watching Arya and Brienne. And I think that jealousy was genuine. 

I don't think she was jealous of Arya's fighting skills (i.e. no "Darn, I wish I was as skilled a fighter as Arya!") Rather I think she was jealous at how well Arya would fit in and how well her sister would be regarded among the Northern lords for those skills. Even Brienne was intrigued by Arya in this scene. There is a potential for understanding and friendship between Arya and Brienne that just isn't possible the same way between Brienne and Sansa.

I think she is worried that from now on, and in the future she is going to be overshadowed by her younger sister. That Arya will be in the centre of the Great Hall, laughing and trading battle stories with the other Northern Lords, while she will sit in the corner embroidering something and being ignored.

Sansa might have decided that Winterfell is her home, and she might be Jon's current regent and Lady Stark to booth. But Sansa is not a Northerner, not quite and will always find herself in scenarios where she is reminded of that fact and experience alienation.

However all that means (imho) is a little bit of tension before Sansa ultimately accepts that and aids her siblings in getting rid of Littlefinger.

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4 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Sansa might have decided that Winterfell is her home, and she might be Jon's current regent and Lady Stark to booth. But Sansa is not a Northerner, not quite and will always find herself in scenarios where she is reminded of that fact and experience alienation.

And what is she? Ghiscari? Sansa is a Northerner, there is no some prototype of Northern women which she doesn't fit. There are all sorts of Northern women. Just because Sansa is girly (I can't even say she is girly in the show anymore), that doesn't mean she is not a Northerner. It seems that she commands the respect of her vassals, guards and everyone else. Jon was right about her "good hands" and we see that Arya also admits that it suits Sansa. I think Sansa is doing a great work of being ruler of the North and she is doing it as one of them. As a Northerner.

I think Sansa has some issues with self-confidence. It is not that she has ever wanted to be the Queen, as many here argued, she only wanted not to be set aside, not to be treated as irrelevant. Her flinch when Arya reminded Brienne about her oath relating to both Stark sisters (which technically isn't true, since in Season 6 Brienne sworn her sword to Sansa) shows more her natural reaction to the fact that her sworn shield is not hers only.

I simply can't see the jealousy here. Some other things, yes, but jealousy, no. Producers spoke about this scene in their Inside the Episode video and it seems that Sansa is rather concerned with the fact of what Arya has become. This is Bran all over again. She remembers Arya as her little sister and she now has a young warrior-princess in front of her. It would be confusing for anyone.

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my take on the look is that Sansa felt she was going to have to adjust herself to a reduced lace in her world again, because both her remaining siblings have become strange beings with special abilities,who she cant really relate with. there may be a touch of resentment there too because she just gets to be lady Stark, the one with all her girly dreams shattered.

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I did read a touch of jealousy there. In the six years that have passed, Jon became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and the King in the North, Bran gained massive psychic powers, and Arya became a colossal badass, all of which probably makes Sansa feel weaker than ever. Remember, her big issue is not feeling safe or being able to protect herself. She sees how effective all her siblings have become at protecting themselves, even little Arya, while she's still as vulnerable as ever, so of course she would be jealous. Arya must have especially been a shock, because at least Sansa could tell herself that she was a girl and so couldn't realistically protect herself the way, say, Jon could (Brienne is freakishly large and mannish, so she's an exception), but there's Arya: younger, smaller, and able to go toe-to-toe even with Brienne. So that right there would shatter her last refuge being the notion that her being a girl meant that she was incapable of protecting herself. Now she sees that it was a possibility, and instead of empowering herself in that way the way that Arya did, she was instead victimized repeatedly.

Another thing to remember, and this is probably something that Sansa is keenly aware of, is that Sansa didn't really survive those years. Not the way Jon, Bran, and Arya did. The three of them had people actively trying to kill them at all times. Sansa, on the other hand, while she was surrounded by enemies the whole time, they weren't out to kill her. She was a prize that they had to preserve because she was the key to controlling the North. She survived because their enemies wanted her alive, while those same enemies did everything in their power to kill both Jon and Bran, and would have done what they could to kill Arya, as well, had they known she was still alive.

Although that being said, while I do believe the jealousy is real, I think Sansa is purposely laying it on thick with the show of jealousy for Littlefinger's benefit. IMO, she's setting him up, making him think there's a weakness which he can exploit, and she'll in turn flip the tables on him. I believe that, while she IS jealous of her siblings and wishes she'd been able to accomplish what they were able to do in the intervening years (And why wouldn't she? They were able to control their destinies during that time. She was never in control of hers), it's not enough to make her turn on her family.

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16 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

Another thing to remember, and this is probably something that Sansa is keenly aware of, is that Sansa didn't really survive those years. Not the way Jon, Bran, and Arya did. The three of them had people actively trying to kill them at all times. Sansa, on the other hand, while she was surrounded by enemies the whole time, they weren't out to kill her. She was a prize that they had to preserve because she was the key to controlling the North. She survived because their enemies wanted her alive, while those same enemies did everything in their power to kill both Jon and Bran, and would have done what they could to kill Arya, as well, had they known she was still alive.

While I think that it would be relatively plausible for Sansa to think that way, I don't see her having that sort of POV. Sersei has been trying to kill her since Season 4, and before that there was a real threat of Joffrey hurting her physically, mentally, sexually. She wasn't being preserved. She was constantly being afraid for her life and safety. She never thought of herself as being relevant enough to be above Joffrey's cruelty. So, no, I don't think that is how she looks at the situation.

43 minutes ago, Gomagoti said:

my take on the look is that Sansa felt she was going to have to adjust herself to a reduced lace in her world again, because both her remaining siblings have become strange beings with special abilities,who she cant really relate with. there may be a touch of resentment there too because she just gets to be lady Stark, the one with all her girly dreams shattered.

I believe Sansa's problem is that she doesn't recognize this new version of her siblings. With Jon, who was already formed person when they left KL was easier because even if he changed, he didn't change that much. Bran and Arya changed a lot. I think it hurts and saddens her because she had the image of family in her head and the reality is rather different

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While I think that it would be relatively plausible for Sansa to think that way, I don't see her having that sort of POV. Sersei has been trying to kill her since Season 4, and before that there was a real threat of Joffrey hurting her physically, mentally, sexually. She wasn't being preserved. She was constantly being afraid for her life and safety. She never thought of herself as being relevant enough to be above Joffrey's cruelty. So, no, I don't think that is how she looks at the situation.

She very clearly was being preserved. When Ser Meryn was beating her, the beating was stopped precisely because they needed to preserve her. Joffrey's cruelty was constantly reined in due to the fact that they needed her, both as his betrothed and later so that the Lannisters could control the North through her. Sure, after Joffrey's death Cersei wanted her dead, but Sansa was never under any real threat from Cersei at that point. And then when she was married to Ramsey, while she was being tortured, again, she was being preserved. She didn't suffer the horrific tortures which Theon or others endured. She wasn't under threat of death like Bran or Rickon when Ramsey was hunting for them. Ramsey never tried to have her killed the way the Boltons had someone infiltrate the Night's Watch to kill Jon. She was afraid for her life and safety, but she also has the sense to realize that, if they'd really wanted her dead, she'd be dead. And the only reason she's still alive is because her enemies, while they were cruel to her, while they victimized her, while they abused her, they never really wanted her dead, and it was in their best interests for her to continue to go on living (And even when they did want her dead, by that point she was out of their reach and so they couldn't really harm her).

I believe Sansa's problem is that she doesn't recognize this new version of her siblings. With Jon, who was already formed person when they left KL was easier because even if he changed, he didn't change that much. Bran and Arya changed a lot. I think it hurts and saddens her because she had the image of family in her head and the reality is rather different

There's that, but I do also believe it has to do with her feelings of powerlessness and victimization. Each of the siblings which she's found has gained power in one way or another, found a strength they didn't possess before, and come out the other end able to take their destiny in their own hands. That's not something she got during that time, and she's still struggling to feel empowered. So yeah, it's not at all unrealistic for Sansa to feel weak and mediocre in comparison to Arya, who's younger and smaller, and yet far more able to defend herself, while Sansa has been victimized over and over again.

 

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8 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

She very clearly was being preserved. When Ser Meryn was beating her, the beating was stopped precisely because they needed to preserve her. Joffrey's cruelty was constantly reined in due to the fact that they needed her, both as his betrothed and later so that the Lannisters could control the North through her. Sure, after Joffrey's death Cersei wanted her dead, but Sansa was never under any real threat from Cersei at that point. And then when she was married to Ramsey, while she was being tortured, again, she was being preserved. She didn't suffer the horrific tortures which Theon or others endured. She wasn't under threat of death like Bran or Rickon when Ramsey was hunting for them. Ramsey never tried to have her killed the way the Boltons had someone infiltrate the Night's Watch to kill Jon. She was afraid for her life and safety, but she also has the sense to realize that, if they'd really wanted her dead, she'd be dead. And the only reason she's still alive is because her enemies, while they were cruel to her, while they victimized her, while they abused her, they never really wanted her dead, and it was in their best interests for her to continue to go on living (And even when they did want her dead, by that point she was out of their reach and so they couldn't really harm her).

When she came to WF, she most certainly was brutalized in the various ways. We know from her testimony to LF that Ramsay in fact did torture her. Not like Theon, but he beat her, he raped her, he psychologically tortured her. Then she was hunted with dogs and almost froze to death. And when she arrived to Castle Black, Ramsay sent  She was in a very real physical danger. She was even ready to die. So, to tell her that her life wasn't endangered or that she would think her life wasn't endangered is actually completely wrong.

14 minutes ago, Thor Odinson said:

There's that, but I do also believe it has to do with her feelings of powerlessness and victimization. Each of the siblings which she's found has gained power in one way or another, found a strength they didn't possess before, and come out the other end able to take their destiny in their own hands. That's not something she got during that time, and she's still struggling to feel empowered. So yeah, it's not at all unrealistic for Sansa to feel weak and mediocre in comparison to Arya, who's younger and smaller, and yet far more able to defend herself, while Sansa has been victimized over and over again.

Well, I think some people consider Sansa's accomplishments mediocre, which is why they are so ready to believe she must be feeling that way. The irony is that 95% of us wouldn't survive what she did. I do believe she has found her position and she is satisfied with the task that has been given to her. Sansa's struggle to feel empowered isn't rooted in jealousy but in her understanding of how precarious their situation is. She is a bit frightened child holding power. It is normal to feel sometimes less powerful. 

She did find her strength and although Bran's and Arya's powers are more intimidating, it is she who changed the most. Well, if we don't count Bran's current status. Which I think will be over soon. In some way or another.

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Posted (edited)

Oddly enough, I found the Arya-Sansa reunion pretty anti-climatic and emotionless. I know both characters are hardened now, but it felt pretty flat and awkward imo, especially in comparison to the Jon-Sansa reunion which got the whole soaring music, running towards each other deal. (Despite never having shared a scene, having the least established relationship of the remaining Stark siblings and not being as anticipated as other reunions). I'd have expected similar happiness at Arya and Sansa seeing each other. Instead there was just a quip about Arya having to call Sansa Lady Stark, a weak hug and an awkwardly silent background. Arya was warmer around Ed Sheeran.

Maybe the directors wanted it to be awkward due to their difficult relationship in s1, but it didn't even feel like it was their past issues or fights that made it flat - just that they weren't that bothered. The actors did a good job at playing it subtle but it wasn't really the moment for that. I'd have much preferred an initial emotional reunion and then a more muted conversation with them discussing their past issues, like Jon and Sansa did.

Count me in as one of the people who didn't understand what Sansa was thinking watching Arya fight. I like the suggestions that either she's worried about Arya being more Northern and fitting in better than her, or that she feels inferior to her super-powered Lord Commander/Master Assassin/All-Seeing Mage siblings, while she didn't learn such awesome skills in the past years. But I suspect the writers are just giving Sansa lots of *ambiguous* moments to try and persuade the audience she might betray her siblings for Littlefinger, and the moment won't mean much in the long run.

 

 

Edited by AryaUnderfoot33

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12 hours ago, Pandean said:

 

I'm pretty sure Sansa did believe Arya's list was real. 

Not at first.  Sansa laughed it off.  My favorite part of that scene was Arya's little giggle that said, "Yeah, go ahead laugh, don't take me seriously, I'm just a silly little girl...."  

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6 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Not at first.  Sansa laughed it off.  My favorite part of that scene was Arya's little giggle that said, "Yeah, go ahead laugh, don't take me seriously, I'm just a silly little girl...."  

Not at first, maybe, but at the end, yeah. Which is what matters, tbh.

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8 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

I disagree. I think their experiences, both horrific but different, could be something that brings them closer. I dont really see the show focusing on thir relationship much though. They will probably only have a few more exchanges of dialogue for remainder of shows run.

I thought that could be a possibility, until I saw Sansa's reaction to realizing Arya is a trained killer now. 

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10 minutes ago, Illiterati said:

Not at first.  Sansa laughed it off.  My favorite part of that scene was Arya's little giggle that said, "Yeah, go ahead laugh, don't take me seriously, I'm just a silly little girl...."

Daenerys didn't believe Jon in the first time when he spoke to her about the WW, so the reaction must be no different where the same thing happened between Sansa and Arya

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Just now, Future Null Infinity said:

Daenerys didn't believe Jon in the first time when he spoke to her about the WW, so the reaction must be no different where the same thing happened between Sansa and Arya

But one scenario was about an incredible occult, the other is about a person's intent.....

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9 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Not at first, maybe, but at the end, yeah. Which is what matters, tbh.

I don't think she believed it until Bran mentioned it.  And Sophie gave a masterful facial expression to indicate that the wheels were turning in her head.

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TBH, I have a hard time believing Sansa would think less of herself because Bran and Arya have special abilities now. Sansa arguably also has something very unique to her. She has a very keen political prowess and is a natural leader. She fits in with the others quite well. 

 

As for her feeling bad because Arya came out learning how to fight and deal with her things and Sansa was just a victim....Arya and Sansa went through astronomically different experiences which both had very different ways of being managed. Arya was on the run in Westeros and encountering situations that demanded for physical brutality, prowess, and fighting back. Sansa was in a deadly court of decadence as well as in other situations where physically fighting back could and would get her killed. Arya's skills in physically fighting back in a multitude of ways were honed whilst Sansa's skills in using her mind, playing 'the game', being subtle, and manipulation (and others) were being honed. If Arya and Sansa had their places switched I don't believe either of them would have survived.  So yeah, maybe Sansa didn't come out with the physical ability to fight back or have the opportunity to survive the way Arya did but Sansa's chosen method of overcoming the brutality that she experienced is in no way making her less strong or the victim.

 

Sansa was in a place where she could literally be killed any time for the slightest infraction. Just because she was betrothed to Joffrey (a mad boy who often repeatedly threatened to rape, kill, and maim her) for a while and then married to Tyrion and Ramsay didn't change that. Ramsay locked her in her room, beat and raped her nightly, Joffrey had Sansa stripped and beaten in front of the entire court and most likely other ghastly things, and she was under constant threat of rape from Tyrion (not that Tyrion himself threatened or wanted to rape her but considering the Tywin issue, if things had played out without the Purple Wedding, they'd be in a pickle soon enough, not to mention Joff still wanted to rape her), etc. She wasn't safe. She was the key to the north, yes, but the protection that gave her was miniscule at best. If she did indeed die, all they had to do was restore the title to another loyal Northern lord.

 

Under all those threats and in a place where any misspoken word, any misstep, etc. could be the last it's obvious that she and Arya, who had her own long list of trials that were terrifying and hard, would come out incredibly different.

 

So, I can't see Sansa thinking "Wow, Arya wasn't the victim and I was I feel bad/jealous/resentful" because it's just not true. Sansa, as of now, has a very decent sense of her own self-worth and what she deserves.

 

7 hours ago, Risto said:

I don't see the Sansa as jealous of Arya's skills. I think we had a very nice evolution of Sansa's views on Arya and her list. First, when they meet, in the crypts, Sansa laughingly disregards it.In the godswood, she begins to be curious about the idea, so when she sees Arya fighting, I think she realizes that Arya is actually quite serious and that she is capable of doing things Sansa herself so easily disregarded. 

It is so interesting to see Sansa in Winterfell constantly running towards her siblings. With both the Bran and Arya, she was the one who initiated the hug. It just speaks about the connection to her family, the strength she draws from it. We have seen what happened to Sansa when she is isolated. I feel that her role in WF won't be only to deal with LF or organize the North for the coming winter. We saw her rebuilding the Winterfell in Season 4. I feel she will be the "glue" to stick the broken family together.

I also feel as if Ms Turner has mastered the art of playing someone whom we can't read. Whether it is intentional, and I believe it can be, or whether she is just bad at projecting some emotions, it remains to be seen. But, for the story, it is nice to have her so unreadable. We are lacking real suspense this season and she provides some of it. 

I definitely believe Sansa is becoming the glue that holds the family together.

She and Jon honestly are beginning to have a LOT of Ned/Cat parallels.

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