Dukhasinov

Weis and Benioff are missing the point of Robert`s Rebellion

98 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, RenlyIsNotRight said:

They were selfish fucking idiots and the romanticization of their relationship is the worst shit of that variety in the fandom since Dany/Drogo.

What about Dany/Drogo?

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mmm... I don't see why they would get the point given that they pretty much missed everything else.

No. I'm not being fair. They got the point of Gregor right... I think?

Edited by Pearly

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Elopements were actually not uncommon in medieval times, and often what would happen is the family would grudgingly accept the couple, particularly if there were offspring.

Think about it, arranged marriages ended at some point, so there had to be resistance along the way, until it reached a breaking point. And we see resistance in many cases in the books.

Lysa and Cersei killed their arranged husbands, after all (extreme case).

But under normal circumstances, the parents seemed to have their children's best interest at heart (and thus there was a degree of consideration of their own feelings involved).

Edited by Le Cygne

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On 9/6/2017 at 5:23 AM, StepStark said:

What about Dany/Drogo?

Show only plebs romanticize the shit out of it despite the fact that its rapey/Stockholm Syndrome as fuck. 

Rhaegar/Lyanna, while maybe not quite as rapey or Stockholm Syndrome-y, is being romanticized with total disregard for the selfishness and idiotic nature of the relationship.

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57 minutes ago, RenlyIsNotRight said:

Show only plebs romanticize the shit out of it despite the fact that its rapey/Stockholm Syndrome as fuck.

However it came to pass I'm certain in the books also Danaerys grows to have intense love for Drogo. This makes the tragedy of his vegetative state and her smothering him so much more painful for her.

She was Drogo's "Moon of my life" and he her "Sun and stars"

That's from GRRM... He developed that romance story line. 

 

Edited by #teamNightking

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3 hours ago, RenlyIsNotRight said:

Show only plebs romanticize the shit out of it despite the fact that its rapey/Stockholm Syndrome as fuck.

Well, I can't hold it against the plebs, because the show itself romanticized it.

I think that the main problem is that even in the show it actually is a romance if you disregard their wedding night, because after the wedding nigh they largely followed the book story. But of course, it's ridiculous to disregard the wedding night because that is how the two of them started their relationship. Like so many times, D&D mixed apples and oranges, and in a story that is suited for Drogo who isn't a rapist, they replaced him with a Drogo who is a rapist.

2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

However it came to pass I'm certain in the books also Danaerys grows to have intense love for Drogo. This makes the tragedy of his vegetative state and her smothering him so much more painful for her.

She was Drogo's "Moon of my life" and he her "Sun and stars"

That's from GRRM... He developed that romance story line. 

What that has to do with anything? Yes, in the books they are in love, but in the books he doesn't rape her and that makes quite a lot of difference. And besides, it's kinda odd to use GRRM's text to make a point, when the problem in the show exists precisely because D&D deviated from the characters and the story from the books.

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34 minutes ago, StepStark said:

What that has to do with anything? Yes, in the books they are in love, but in the books he doesn't rape her and that makes quite a lot of difference.

It makes all the difference. The show screwed up in not accurately following the book here because the relationship that followed in both book and show is that they fall in love. So I agree with you here. 

My point is it's not the fans' fault if they embrace the romance when both the original story and the show clearly contain the romance. I think it unlikely the majority of fans would protest on principle the developing relationship between Dany and Drogo because of the way it began in the show. In addition many are book readers and it is easy to just ignore the show's mistake there and just look past it. 

And not debating the right or wrong of it, I'm sure in both medieval times and the GOT world, Danaerys wouldn't be the first to be married off in an arranged marriage to discover later they have developed feelings for the other person. 

Hell I'm not even sure why I'm commenting on this, this Danaerys storyline, book and show, is not my favorite. They could have cut everything between the wedding and the arrival on Dragonstone and ida been ok with that ;)

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On 9/5/2017 at 8:37 AM, LindsayLohan said:

Proof that Rhaegar was some romantic poof and not a real warrior.  By the Battle of the Trident, the war had been going on for nearly a year.  Robert had destroyed disloyal lords in the Stormlands, smashed Jon Connington, and linked up with Ned, Jon, and Hoster to begin the final push on King's Landing.  Rhaegar was literally a "knight of summer", and the Trident was his first battle.

By all accounts, it was a disastrous rout, and the fact that Rhaeger ever met Robert in battle shows Rhaegar didn't have any idea what he was doing.  Rhaegar was as unfit to rule as Aerys.

Preach!  Preach on!

On 9/5/2017 at 8:48 PM, RenlyIsNotRight said:

"Roberts Rebellion was built on a lie" was just the ultimate manifestation of D$Ds biases (Targ whitewashing/Baratheon blackwashing)

Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna loving each other ends up being book canon (which...ugh is there anything more generic and antithetical to the very essence of this series?) their actions still ultimately plunged the kingdoms into war, Lyanna was ultimately responsible for the death of her father and brother and Rhaegar responsible for the brutal murder and rape of his wife and two young children. That's to say nothing of the insult to Elia and House Martell that was annulling Elia in favor of 14 year old girl, AND on top of all that, he gives his son by his side piece the same name as the son he left to die in Kings Landing.

Fuck Rhaegar and Lyanna. They were selfish fucking idiots.

Amen amen amen!  Even if GRRM makes this the most trite fanstasy love story ever and makes it so Elia encouraged Rhaegar to annul their marriage he will always be sort of an irresponsible dick to me.

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13 hours ago, StepStark said:

Well, I can't hold it against the plebs, because the show itself romanticized it.

I think that the main problem is that even in the show it actually is a romance if you disregard their wedding night, because after the wedding nigh they largely followed the book story. But of course, it's ridiculous to disregard the wedding night because that is how the two of them started their relationship. Like so many times, D&D mixed apples and oranges, and in a story that is suited for Drogo who isn't a rapist, they replaced him with a Drogo who is a rapist.

What that has to do with anything? Yes, in the books they are in love, but in the books he doesn't rape her and that makes quite a lot of difference. And besides, it's kinda odd to use GRRM's text to make a point, when the problem in the show exists precisely because D&D deviated from the characters and the story from the books.

He is a rapist in the books too though by modern standards. She is a child, paid for and cannot escape, so is effectively a slave. Yes she allows him to have sex with her on their wedding night, but what the book is doing there is basically fast tracking paedophilic grooming. It's horrible to read it in the books too, and I cannot see how people think it is somehow ok that way. If that scene was shown on the screen as written it would probably be regarded as the most notorious of the show. 

But also, Stockholm syndrome is a real thing. In both cases this is how it could have started out when she starts having feelings for him. It's still possible for them to eventually fall in love for real, as horrible as that seems to an outsider. It could happen. Love is weird.

If GRRM had written it as a straight rape and the show changed it to consensual then people would be complaining that the show had to water it down to make it seem more palatable and the character more sympathetic. They did this with Tyrion killing Shae and everyone went mad on that!

(sorry, rather OP off-topic)

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On 9/5/2017 at 8:26 PM, purple-eyes said:

Of course the rebellion was based as a lie. 

Rhaegar and Lyanna lied to and probably acted to the whole world that it was a "kidnapping" on swordpoint but in truth it is a secret eloping and honeymoon. 

Do you think Westerosi people will think it is a kidnapping if Lyanna ran to Rhaegar with happy smile and they ended up hugging and kissing each other passionately and then run away together? 

Rhaegar was married to a Princess of Dorne and I have to wonder if they whole charade was Rhaegar attempting to deal with the political fallout of him setting aside Elia and marrying Lyanna.  Then with is batshit crazy father there to help it all blew up in his face.

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On 9/6/2017 at 5:23 AM, StepStark said:

What about Dany/Drogo?

Dany was sold to Khal Drogo like cattle.  That's about the least romantic thing I can think of.

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2 hours ago, Daske said:

He is a rapist in the books too though by modern standards. She is a child, paid for and cannot escape, so is effectively a slave. Yes she allows him to have sex with her on their wedding night, but what the book is doing there is basically fast tracking paedophilic grooming. It's horrible to read it in the books too, and I cannot see how people think it is somehow ok that way.

Why are you reading these books then? It's obvious that GRRM didn't write Drogo as a rapist, and didn't write their wedding night as a rape. She was sold to him, and she recalls that later on and is understandably angry about it (mostly and rightfully at Viserys) but she wasn't raped by Drogo and the two of them developed a mutually loving relationship. And no, she wasn't a child by the standards of the setting - Jon Snow is her age, and roughly at the same time he made a vow for life, so in Westeros and Essoss people of that age are expected to be involved in mature, serious decisions and developments that could affect their lives in significant ways. And not to mention that Sansa and Joff, who are both younger than Dany, are also engaged at the same time and expected to marry soon. And by the way, those standards existed in our world until less than a century ago, and in some parts of the world they still exist.

Anyhow, that is how the author intended that to be seen, and that is how it was perceived until the stupid show came along. But if you think that it was a rape and that Drogo is in fact a rapist, then it's logical that you also think that GRRM actually promotes rape. And that's why I asked you why are you reading these books. It's an honest question, I'm not trying to insult you or anything, you obviously have the right to think whatever you want and read whatever you want, but I'm curious really. Ever since the show, I'm seeing that viewpoint: that Dany was actually raped in the books and that Drogo is a rapist in the books too. But nobody in the books themselves ever sees it that way, not even Dany, who is very harsh when it comes to rape and slavery, and that means that GRRM most probably doesn't see that as a rape. So if you are certain in your analysis, and you have no doubt that it was a rape, then I don't understand why are you even reading these books. I know I'd never read an author who'd be promoting (even unwillingly) something that I see as rape or some other form of crime.

2 hours ago, Daske said:

If that scene was shown on the screen as written it would probably be regarded as the most notorious of the show.

Why? Millions of readers for years and years were reading that scene the way GRRM wrote it, and had no problem with it.

2 hours ago, Daske said:

But also, Stockholm syndrome is a real thing. In both cases this is how it could have started out when she starts having feelings for him. It's still possible for them to eventually fall in love for real, as horrible as that seems to an outsider. It could happen. Love is weird.

There are tons of romance stories out there that can be explain in that way: love is just weird. I'm perfectly happy that ASOIAF is not one of those stories.

2 hours ago, Daske said:

If GRRM had written it as a straight rape and the show changed it to consensual then people would be complaining that the show had to water it down to make it seem more palatable and the character more sympathetic. They did this with Tyrion killing Shae and everyone went mad on that!

You're now contradicting yourself a bit, because here you're implying that 1) GRRM actually wrote the scene as consensual, and 2) the people would freak out if GRRM's and D&D's roles were reversed. But a moment ago you said that the scene would be most notorious if it was filmed as in the books. It looks like that you're always seeing D&D as some poor victims of some irrational rage. And sorry, but that viewpoint is as irrational as it comes.

And also, you can't just reverse their roles like that because it disregards the entire context of the story. It's not about turning a no-rape scene into a rape scene, it's much more about taking an important scene that fits the context and practically initiates Dany's arc, and turning it into something else that doesn't fit into the context and paints Dany's entire arc in the entirely different light while D&D don't even seem aware of it.

They did the same with Tyrion and Shae and that is why the people complained.

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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Dany was sold to Khal Drogo like cattle.  That's about the least romantic thing I can think of.

Selling someone really is anything but romantic. But finding out that Drogo, who Dany was sold to, doesn't want to treat her as merchandise and actually is much more gentle and open-minded than expected, is a legitimate foundation for a romance story.

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11 hours ago, StepStark said:

Selling someone really is anything but romantic. But finding out that Drogo, who Dany was sold to, doesn't want to treat her as merchandise and actually is much more gentle and open-minded than expected, is a legitimate foundation for a romance story.

I have no idea why they changed the sex scene to a rape scene. God's, it was right there in my face how these guys write, and I ignored it.

But yes, I did think Daeny and Drogo was actually romantic. It could have been stockholme syndrome, but I bevel the dude treated her better than most of the highborn treat their wives in Westeros. She was more than his breeding machine. She really was his queen and at times it seemed like she wielded just as much power as he did. What other "queen" would be able to openly do the things Drogo let Daeny do?

One more thing. In college I learned something. The professor called it Looking with the lens of the time . Meaning, Of course it's child rape and probably much more. However, at the time it wasn't. Like how slavery is bad, but back in the day (I am talking days of Rome here) That was perfectly normal and did not make you a bad person.

When reading historical fiction, leave your 2017 sensibilities at the door and look at it within the context of the times/story that you are reading.

Kal Drogo in 2017 = Child molester

 

Kal Drogo in the 13'th-15'th century on Planetos = Decent guy. Especially considering her brother sold her off and that was apparently totally normal.

Edited by MrJay

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16 hours ago, StepStark said:

Why are you reading these books then? It's obvious that GRRM didn't write Drogo as a rapist, and didn't write their wedding night as a rape. She was sold to him, and she recalls that later on and is understandably angry about it (mostly and rightfully at Viserys) but she wasn't raped by Drogo and the two of them developed a mutually loving relationship. And no, she wasn't a child by the standards of the setting - Jon Snow is her age, and roughly at the same time he made a vow for life, so in Westeros and Essoss people of that age are expected to be involved in mature, serious decisions and developments that could affect their lives in significant ways. And not to mention that Sansa and Joff, who are both younger than Dany, are also engaged at the same time and expected to marry soon. And by the way, those standards existed in our world until less than a century ago, and in some parts of the world they still exist.

Anyhow, that is how the author intended that to be seen, and that is how it was perceived until the stupid show came along. But if you think that it was a rape and that Drogo is in fact a rapist, then it's logical that you also think that GRRM actually promotes rape. And that's why I asked you why are you reading these books. It's an honest question, I'm not trying to insult you or anything, you obviously have the right to think whatever you want and read whatever you want, but I'm curious really. Ever since the show, I'm seeing that viewpoint: that Dany was actually raped in the books and that Drogo is a rapist in the books too. But nobody in the books themselves ever sees it that way, not even Dany, who is very harsh when it comes to rape and slavery, and that means that GRRM most probably doesn't see that as a rape. So if you are certain in your analysis, and you have no doubt that it was a rape, then I don't understand why are you even reading these books. I know I'd never read an author who'd be promoting (even unwillingly) something that I see as rape or some other form of crime.

Why? Millions of readers for years and years were reading that scene the way GRRM wrote it, and had no problem with it.

There are tons of romance stories out there that can be explain in that way: love is just weird. I'm perfectly happy that ASOIAF is not one of those stories.

You're now contradicting yourself a bit, because here you're implying that 1) GRRM actually wrote the scene as consensual, and 2) the people would freak out if GRRM's and D&D's roles were reversed. But a moment ago you said that the scene would be most notorious if it was filmed as in the books. It looks like that you're always seeing D&D as some poor victims of some irrational rage. And sorry, but that viewpoint is as irrational as it comes.

And also, you can't just reverse their roles like that because it disregards the entire context of the story. It's not about turning a no-rape scene into a rape scene, it's much more about taking an important scene that fits the context and practically initiates Dany's arc, and turning it into something else that doesn't fit into the context and paints Dany's entire arc in the entirely different light while D&D don't even seem aware of it.

They did the same with Tyrion and Shae and that is why the people complained.

Lots of points. But I think you think I'm judging the way the book did it as bad and the show good. No, I see both are valid ways to write it - as both are possible. I don't read books to just read happy nice stories. But both versions of the wedding night 'in story' are horrific - even if 'in story' Dany actually enjoyed it in the book.

Sorry to be blunt, but let's face it if it was your 13 year old daughter in that situation you would consider it abuse. The fact that she says 'yes' at the end is neither here nor there given her age and the situation she is in.

I think you make the assumption that GRRM didn't write it as rape in the books. He may have a more grey view on this. And also, he isn't a perfect judge of everything. He may not have seen it as so, but that doesn't mean that society at large agrees. That's why some people see it that way. Furthermore, just because someone writes a rape scene doesn't mean they promote rape (and ASoIaF are one of the most rapey books out there!).

I just don't see why the outrage in the show version. If anything it's more realistic given everything we know abut the Dothraki and more 'honest' in terms of how women sold into slavery would have been/are being treated.

So you are happy with Jaime-Cersei crypt scene not being rape? Because she says 'no' to start with then relents? which is what Danny does (and Cersei is an adult with her lover in that situation and not a child slave).

I'm happy making hypothetical scenarios - it's useful to test bias about something. It's not about whether a reversal of characters in a scene makes perfect sense in the whole story, because that whole arc could be different in another universe. There is no context to a story that couldn't be written another way if the author just had just decided to do so. Maybe hadn't even thought about doing some thing one way unless their dog hadn't died the day before. Stories don't come to life fully formed. Who knows? Jaime may not have lost a hand if GRRM had gotten out of bed on the wrong side one morning. And that story wherever it went would be just as valid.

How would you feel if GRRM had written Loras and Renly's relationship as openly gay (perfectly possible), then the show decided to skirt around the issue and not actually even mention it? Or if GRRM had written Varys more like Conleth Hill's portrayal (perfectly possible) then the show had written him like a tittering Nosferatu gliding about the place? Or the well worn example of Daario? There would be fan outrage, even though they may be already happy with those aspects in the books. My point is what comes first matters in terms of people's perceptions of what a scene should be. And judging it fairly as good or appropriate comes second. I'm confident that some people complaining about the wedding scene in the show would be complaining for a different reason if the book-show was reversed for this scene.

 

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On 9/9/2017 at 4:39 AM, Daske said:

Lots of points. But I think you think I'm judging the way the book did it as bad and the show good. No, I see both are valid ways to write it - as both are possible. I don't read books to just read happy nice stories. But both versions of the wedding night 'in story' are horrific - even if 'in story' Dany actually enjoyed it in the book.

Sorry to be blunt, but let's face it if it was your 13 year old daughter in that situation you would consider it abuse. The fact that she says 'yes' at the end is neither here nor there given her age and the situation she is in.

I think you make the assumption that GRRM didn't write it as rape in the books. He may have a more grey view on this. And also, he isn't a perfect judge of everything. He may not have seen it as so, but that doesn't mean that society at large agrees. That's why some people see it that way. Furthermore, just because someone writes a rape scene doesn't mean they promote rape (and ASoIaF are one of the most rapey books out there!).

I just don't see why the outrage in the show version. If anything it's more realistic given everything we know abut the Dothraki and more 'honest' in terms of how women sold into slavery would have been/are being treated.

So you are happy with Jaime-Cersei crypt scene not being rape? Because she says 'no' to start with then relents? which is what Danny does (and Cersei is an adult with her lover in that situation and not a child slave).

I'm happy making hypothetical scenarios - it's useful to test bias about something. It's not about whether a reversal of characters in a scene makes perfect sense in the whole story, because that whole arc could be different in another universe. There is no context to a story that couldn't be written another way if the author just had just decided to do so. Maybe hadn't even thought about doing some thing one way unless their dog hadn't died the day before. Stories don't come to life fully formed. Who knows? Jaime may not have lost a hand if GRRM had gotten out of bed on the wrong side one morning. And that story wherever it went would be just as valid.

How would you feel if GRRM had written Loras and Renly's relationship as openly gay (perfectly possible), then the show decided to skirt around the issue and not actually even mention it? Or if GRRM had written Varys more like Conleth Hill's portrayal (perfectly possible) then the show had written him like a tittering Nosferatu gliding about the place? Or the well worn example of Daario? There would be fan outrage, even though they may be already happy with those aspects in the books. My point is what comes first matters in terms of people's perceptions of what a scene should be. And judging it fairly as good or appropriate comes second. I'm confident that some people complaining about the wedding scene in the show would be complaining for a different reason if the book-show was reversed for this scene.

 

If it was my 13 year old daughter today I would be outraged & probably try to kill Drogo. But the books lay out a societal norm that is acceptable to the people in Westeros & beyond. They differ some from place to place but a 13-14 year old then is equivalent to an 18 year old now. So a better question would be how would I feel if this was my 18 year old daughter. Well, still outraged but this time I would be trying to kill Viserys for selling his sister. 

The book scene & the show scene have marked differences. In one Drogo has consensual sex with his new wife. You can say she wasn't old enough to give consent but the fact is according to Planetos standards she was. The other has Drogo raping his new wife. In the book Drogo is tender with her, takes his time, asks permission & gets an affirmative answer before he has sex with her. In the show Drogo turns her around & takes her by force while she cries through the whole thing. Very different scenarios. 

Of course any of the book could have been written different. I don't even understand what that has to do with this. 

The issue I have with D&D making it rape is that then Dany & Drogo carry on & have this loving relationship. Who falls in love with their rapist? GRRM wrote it as consensual because then it makes a whole lot more sense for Dany & Drogo to fall in love. 

I would also have to disagree that the show version is more in line with what we know to be dothraki standards. Viserys, Dany & even the readers may see it as Dany being sold into slavery but Drogo saw it as an arranged marriage. Yes the dothraki rape their slaves but at no time did he or anyone else treat Dany the way the slaves were treated. Dany was not considered a slave at all. She was a Khaleesi. I don't recall another book instance of how a Khaleesi is treated to say Drogo raping her would have been more realistic in the dothraki community. 

To answer some of your questions: I didn't view the Jaime/Cersei scene as rape. Pushy & a little odd but not rape. I know there was a bunch of controversy about it but I personally didn't feel like D&D were trying to write a rape scene there. 

If GRRM had written Renly & Loras as openly gay & the show skirted around it I would be ok with that as long as it didn't change who they were as characters & it fit into their personal arcs rather than being completely out of place with those things. 

 

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As late as the 18th century, average life expectancy at birth for a Prussian male was 25 years, for English 34 years, for French or Spanish in between.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Variation_over_time

Bear that in mind when you're talking about marriage of teen-agers as "pedophilia."  Our idea of coddling people as "juveniles" until they are in their 20s was completely foreign in the 13th-century world GOT is modeled on. A young woman expected to be marriageable at age 13, and if she married then, that was generally speaking a success of which her family would be proud. By 16 she was a bit past her prime, and by 18 she would be a spinster and unlikely to ever marry. After all, her lifespan, if average, was already more than half over.

Generally, once you were old enough to biologically have children, it was high time to get on with it while you still had the chance; there were economic reasons for that, as well. Calling Drogo a "pedophile" for having consensual sex with his 13-year-old wife is either a complete refusal or a complete inability to understand that other people in other places and other times could look at things differently than we do.

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21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If it was my 13 year old daughter today I would be outraged & probably try to kill Drogo. But the books lay out a societal norm that is acceptable to the people in Westeros & beyond. They differ some from place to place but a 13-14 year old then is equivalent to an 18 year old now. So a better question would be how would I feel if this was my 18 year old daughter. Well, still outraged but this time I would be trying to kill Viserys for selling his sister. 

The book scene & the show scene have marked differences. In one Drogo has consensual sex with his new wife. You can say she wasn't old enough to give consent but the fact is according to Planetos standards she was. The other has Drogo raping his new wife. In the book Drogo is tender with her, takes his time, asks permission & gets an affirmative answer before he has sex with her. In the show Drogo turns her around & takes her by force while she cries through the whole thing. Very different scenarios. 

Of course any of the book could have been written different. I don't even understand what that has to do with this. 

The issue I have with D&D making it rape is that then Dany & Drogo carry on & have this loving relationship. Who falls in love with their rapist? GRRM wrote it as consensual because then it makes a whole lot more sense for Dany & Drogo to fall in love. 

I would also have to disagree that the show version is more in line with what we know to be dothraki standards. Viserys, Dany & even the readers may see it as Dany being sold into slavery but Drogo saw it as an arranged marriage. Yes the dothraki rape their slaves but at no time did he or anyone else treat Dany the way the slaves were treated. Dany was not considered a slave at all. She was a Khaleesi. I don't recall another book instance of how a Khaleesi is treated to say Drogo raping her would have been more realistic in the dothraki community. 

To answer some of your questions: I didn't view the Jaime/Cersei scene as rape. Pushy & a little odd but not rape. I know there was a bunch of controversy about it but I personally didn't feel like D&D were trying to write a rape scene there. 

If GRRM had written Renly & Loras as openly gay & the show skirted around it I would be ok with that as long as it didn't change who they were as characters & it fit into their personal arcs rather than being completely out of place with those things. 

 

I disagree with this pretty much whole-heartedly.  Even in the books it is noted that 13 is young and a probably inappropriate age for marriage.  Even Viserys is surprised Drogo "likes girls that young" and remarks that savages have weird tastes.  And while the wedding night scene is certainly more tender in the books, it still comes across as rape, not to mention that Dany's next recollections throughout the book are of repeatedly being raped night after night in the same exact way the show does it.  This passage is from the books:

"Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night…"

So I really fail to see any difference between the show and the books- they combined Dany's recollections with her wedding night for simplicity- it still comes out to the same that she was getting raped by Drogo.

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27 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I disagree with this pretty much whole-heartedly.  Even in the books it is noted that 13 is young and a probably inappropriate age for marriage.  Even Viserys is surprised Drogo "likes girls that young" and remarks that savages have weird tastes.  And while the wedding night scene is certainly more tender in the books, it still comes across as rape, not to mention that Dany's next recollections throughout the book are of repeatedly being raped night after night in the same exact way the show does it.  This passage is from the books:

"Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night…"

So I really fail to see any difference between the show and the books- they combined Dany's recollections with her wedding night for simplicity- it still comes out to the same that she was getting raped by Drogo.

I agree what followed her wedding night was a bit rape-y but it was still consenual. She never tries to stop him. I'm not saying it was good or romantic or right but it still doesn't fall in line with rape IMO. 

I don't recall the passage from Viserys saying he was surprised Drogo liked girls that young but it would appear Viserys is pretty much the only spoken character in the series that thinks so. Girls 13 & 14 get married all over Westeros. This is the age they are to get married. 

What exactly about her wedding night implies rape to you? Is it only her age? I'm just trying to figure out if I remember it differently than you or what. (Which is quite possible as it's been a while since I read the books.) 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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5 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

As late as the 18th century, average life expectancy at birth for a Prussian male was 25 years, for English 34 years, for French or Spanish in between.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#Variation_over_time

Bear that in mind when you're talking about marriage of teen-agers as "pedophilia."  Our idea of coddling people as "juveniles" until they are in their 20s was completely foreign in the 13th-century world GOT is modeled on. A young woman expected to be marriageable at age 13, and if she married then, that was generally speaking a success of which her family would be proud. By 16 she was a bit past her prime, and by 18 she would be a spinster and unlikely to ever marry. After all, her lifespan, if average, was already more than half over.

 

I am gonna call bullshit on this. 

This is stereotypical view that people have of medieval Europe & it is incorrect as hell. 

On the life expectancy part, bear in mind that the average was lowered down by the super high infant & child mortality rate. However for people who survived childhood it could be well expected that they would most likely live into their 50s. 

As for marriage age, what you said is incorrect either. Average marriage age varied depending on the location & period but the most common trend was earlier twenties for men & late teen for women. Your assertion that "By 16 she was a bit past her prime, and by 18 she would be a spinster and unlikely to ever marry." has no basis in reality. 

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