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balerionsteel.

Varys has no purpose

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the writers just don't know what to do anymore with varys' character... he has no motivation and no more part to play. we don't even know if he's going to wt or stayin'on ds. what purpose could he serve going' to wt anyway? that place is gonna be packed next season

Edited by ladysnowheart

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He will have one line when Aerys II is resolved. How he was responsible for everything although he wasn't. Then he dies.

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The only part he could play now is feeding info to cersei, but that's stupid. 

You can't see this, but i was sitting here for 5 min really thinking of something meaningful he could do. I got nothing. Short of betraying Daeny somehow, nada. Maybe get his birds back and have them murder uncle Qyburn? Then have them feed him info on cersei's bowel movements?

Edited by MrJay

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I'm thinking he finds out Jon's king and tries to get Jon to betray Dany leading to his death.

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5 minutes ago, KINGpanther said:

I'm thinking he finds out Jon's king and tries to get Jon to betray Dany leading to his death.

It's possible, but wouldn't it make more sense for him to push for a marriage between Jon and Dany if he finds out?

I'm honestly at a loss myself as to what purpose Varys will have before his demise. I only hope he dies for a good cause and not as a traitor.

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5 hours ago, MrJay said:

 

You can't see this, but i was sitting here for 5 min really thinking of something meaningful he could do. I got nothing. Short of betraying Daeny somehow, nada. 

That's what he does.  I think someone will catch him sending a raven, maybe Jorah, and he'll probably poison himself before being burned.

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He can confirm Jons existence also for people. on a second watch in episode 2 when Dany meets Melisadre, when Melis tells dany to meet jon snow, Varys butts in and changes the topic and says "And what did you see that made the lord of light single out this Jon Snow?" he wasnt in the convo until she said that she didnt know if Dany was the prince that was promised, but that she has a role to play along with Jon snow. Knowing what we know Kind of seemed like Varys was asking to feel out what Melis may have seen about him.

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Varys still has lots of contacts, among them in Essos. He could be the one who reveals that Cersei has hired the GC in order to backstab them. I don't see Jaime doing that because Jaime has to conceal his identity now.

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The idea of Varys being a spy for Cersei is absurd. He has no motivation. Varys might indeed come to the conclusion that Dany is a terrible ruler (which ultimately makes Varys an idiot for throwing all his weight behind someone he barely knew). However, if her cruelty and poor decision making bother him so much, why would he support Cersei? Despite the many attempts of fans to reinterpret the character because they love the actress (and Lena Headey is awesome), Cersei is evil, incompetent, petty, and almost cartoonishly short sighted. Betraying Dany for a better ruler makes perfect sense, but Cersei ain't it.

I've seen this theory floating around everywhere, as a way to explain why Varys is seemingly ineffective lately and why Cersei's military is so strong. Ultimately, there are easier explanations for that. Jaime, Euron, and Randyll Tarly are without questions the best military minds in Westeros. She had them all on her side. Dany's best commanders were Barristan (dead), Jorah (MIA for a while), and Grey Worm. She just got Jorah back, and Grey Worm has been relying on the others because he knows nothing about the continent.

As for Varys, everything he does in the books leads to him putting Aegon on the throne. In the show, they change this to him wanting to put Viserys on the throne. That alone proves they have no idea what to do with Varys anymore. He'll go the way of Littlefinger. I think they knew he would die before the end, and decided to shove him to the side while they developed other characters.

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12 hours ago, Lorathi said:

The idea of Varys being a spy for Cersei is absurd. He has no motivation. Varys might indeed come to the conclusion that Dany is a terrible ruler (which ultimately makes Varys an idiot for throwing all his weight behind someone he barely knew). However, if her cruelty and poor decision making bother him so much, why would he support Cersei? Despite the many attempts of fans to reinterpret the character because they love the actress (and Lena Headey is awesome), Cersei is evil, incompetent, petty, and almost cartoonishly short sighted. Betraying Dany for a better ruler makes perfect sense, but Cersei ain't it.

I've seen this theory floating around everywhere, as a way to explain why Varys is seemingly ineffective lately and why Cersei's military is so strong. Ultimately, there are easier explanations for that. Jaime, Euron, and Randyll Tarly are without questions the best military minds in Westeros. She had them all on her side. Dany's best commanders were Barristan (dead), Jorah (MIA for a while), and Grey Worm. She just got Jorah back, and Grey Worm has been relying on the others because he knows nothing about the continent.

I took a stab at this in the "Dany has a stranger in her house" thread.  The argument isn't that Varys is supporting Cersei over Dany.  The argument is that Varys is supporting House Lannister and has been from the beginning.  And, if Varys isn't feeding Cersei information, then she actually deserves more credit for the military successes she's had in her war against Dany.   After all, this "evil, incompetent, petty, and almost cartoonishly short sighted" person managed to gather around her "without questions the best military minds in Westeros".  She's also managed to make an ally of of the Iron Bank.  I agree with your assessment of Cersei, but as far as this queen stuff goes, she could be doing a lot worse.

12 hours ago, Lorathi said:

As for Varys, everything he does in the books leads to him putting Aegon on the throne. In the show, they change this to him wanting to put Viserys on the throne. That alone proves they have no idea what to do with Varys anymore. He'll go the way of Littlefinger. I think they knew he would die before the end, and decided to shove him to the side while they developed other characters.

I don't agree with this at all.  fAegon isn't revealed until book five, there's little indication in the books or the show how Viserys and the Dothraki were supposed to fit into Varys scheme and, if anything, Varys has had a greater presence in the TV show than the books.  After Tyrions escape Varys disappears until the DWD epilogue.  In the show he travels with Tyrion to Mereen, helps pacify the city and defeat the slavers and brings Dorne and the Reach to Dany's side.  And yes, his behavior this season is really weird.  Whether or not he's supporting the Lannisters, he's almost certainly undermining Dany.

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Can any book readers confirm if LF and Varys became as useless as they have in the last few seasons also in the books? they went from being the smartest,most interesting characters constantly scheming and talking in riddles... to just being like any other supporting character same can be said of little tyrion aswell.

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2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

Can any book readers confirm if LF and Varys became as useless as they have in the last few seasons also in the books? they went from being the smartest,most interesting characters constantly scheming and talking in riddles... to just being like any other supporting character same can be said of little tyrion aswell.

Subjective, but in the novels, the post-War of the Five Kings LF is a shadow of his old self. He withdraws to the Vale, limits himself to tricking the Lords Declarant, and comes up with a plot (Harry and Sansa) that is obviously not going to be crucial, given Dany, Aegon, and, above all, the Walkers, are all coming.

As for Varys, he never made any sense for me. His plot with Dany in Game does not work from any pov--and I can go on and on about this. Through Game, Clash, Storm, LF outplays him. In Dance, he's reintroduced as Aegon's supporter. That's kind of sad in that we've already had one magnificent civil war, orchestrated by LF, and this second civil war is a mere repeat. The Walkers are coming. They were always coming. WotFK made it obvious that lords must put aside their dynastic aspirations at least temporarily to do something about a zombie apocalypse. A second civil war to underline that is totally unnecessary.

So yeah, I'd say Feast-Dance wrecked LF, and Varys was always wrecked.

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*Puts on tinfoil hat*

Varys endgoal is not a Targaryen restoration, it's the opposite.
He doesn't care about the realm or it's people, he only cares about survival and an end to House Targaryen.
(He could feed either Robert or the assassins false information in season 1, but he didn't - he told them exactly where to find their target: Daenerys.)

Later in season 5, he decided to take matters into his own hands.
He knew that Daenerys would never listen to him if he sought her out on his own, so he couldn't manipulate her.
Instead he first needed someone who she could warm up to, and who would speak warmly about Varys without realizing that Varys played him or her. Que Tyrion. Varys convinces Tyrion that Daenerys is the best chance to build a better world, and that they will seek her out together. One of the first things Tyrion says to Daenerys back in season 5 is that Varys is one of the few people in the world he fully trusts. Tyrion is already being played by Varys, since by vouching for him, he prevents Varys from being executioned by Daenerys.
All of season 6 and 7, Varys slowly manipulates Tyrion into manipulating Daenerys. He keeps telling Tyrion that they can't let Daenerys turn into her father, nor that she will if they give her the the proper council: restraint. Restraint and bad strategic plans is what almost made Dany loose Mereen, and almost cost her the war against Cersei, and it was Tyrion who gave her the plans and cautioned restraint.

While using subterfuge to undermine Daenerys and hopefully have her dragons, armies and allies killed, he keeps spying for Cersei, feeding her tactical information. That's why Euron knew where to find the Sandsnakes and the Greyjoys, and why Casterly Rock was emptied, and why Euron could destroy the remaining Targaryen fleet after the Unsullied had made it onto land.
Varys didn't suddenly become a bad spymaster for Daenerys in season 7, he simply keeps her in the dark and acts like he has nothing to tell her, all while manipulating Tyrion into giving her bad advice.

He also tried to refuse Kinvara and the red priests help in season 6, and tried to have Melissandre exposed as a traitor when she first meets with Daenerys ("It didn't end well for Stannis Baratheon, did it?"), and then tries to intimidate her into leaving and never returning under threat of being assassinated. The priests of R'hllor are willing allies to Daenerys, so he did what he could to prevent them from joining her.

*takes off tinfoil hat*

Or the simple truth is that Varys is fully dedicated to House Targaryen at this point, and that the character simply has been shoved to the sideline during season 7. He's a shitty spymaster for Daenerys since the plot demands it.



 

 

Edited by MinscS2

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49 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

*Puts on tinfoil hat*

Varys endgoal is not a Targaryen restoration, it's the opposite.
He doesn't care about the realm or it's people, he only cares about survival and an end to House Targaryen.
(He could feed either Robert or the assassins false information in season 1, but he didn't - he told them exactly where to find their target: Daenerys.)

Later in season 5, he decided to take matters into his own hands.
He knew that Daenerys would never listen to him if he sought her out on his own, so he couldn't manipulate her.
Instead he first needed someone who she could warm up to, and who would speak warmly about Varys without realizing that Varys played him or her. Que Tyrion. Varys convinces Tyrion that Daenerys is the best chance to build a better world, and that they will seek her out together. One of the first things Tyrion says to Daenerys back in season 5 is that Varys is one of the few people in the world he fully trusts. Tyrion is already being played by Varys, since by vouching for him, he prevents Varys from being executioned by Daenerys.
All of season 6 and 7, Varys slowly manipulates Tyrion into manipulating Daenerys. He keeps telling Tyrion that they can't let Daenerys turn into her father, nor that she will if they give her the the proper council: restraint. Restraint and bad strategic plans is what almost made Dany loose Mereen, and almost cost her the war against Cersei, and it was Tyrion who gave her the plans and cautioned restraint.

While using subterfuge to undermine Daenerys and hopefully have her dragons, armies and allies killed, he keeps spying for Cersei, feeding her tactical information. That's why Euron knew where to find the Sandsnakes and the Greyjoys, and why Casterly Rock was emptied, and why Euron could destroy the remaining Targaryen fleet after the Unsullied had made it onto land.
Varys didn't suddenly become a bad spymaster for Daenerys in season 7, he simply keeps her in the dark and acts like he has nothing to tell her, all while manipulating Tyrion into giving her bad advice.

He also tried to refuse Kinvara and the red priests help in season 6, and tried to have Melissandre exposed as a traitor when she first meets with Daenerys ("It didn't end well for Stannis Baratheon, did it?"), and then tries to intimidate her into leaving and never returning under threat of being assassinated. The priests of R'hllor are willing allies to Daenerys, so he did what he could to prevent them from joining her.

*takes off tinfoil hat*

Or the simple truth is that Varys is fully dedicated to House Targaryen at this point, and that the character simply has been shoved to the sideline during season 7. He's a shitty spymaster for Daenerys since the plot demands it.



 

 

The plot demands it and a big chunk of his spy network was taken away from him in season 6. 

My only guess is whatever final purpose he has is tied up with the voice he heard in the flame all those years ago. 

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Well... Varys may have some connection to:

- Aerys II madness

- Blackfyres

- Golden Company

- Red Priests

On top of that we do not know his true intentions, we don't now his past (both childhood and Rebellion era), and his goals/ true allies are unknown too. Daenerys was warned of this character for a reason. He has role to play.

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4 hours ago, kimim said:

Subjective, but in the novels, the post-War of the Five Kings LF is a shadow of his old self. He withdraws to the Vale, limits himself to tricking the Lords Declarant, and comes up with a plot (Harry and Sansa) that is obviously not going to be crucial, given Dany, Aegon, and, above all, the Walkers, are all coming.

As for Varys, he never made any sense for me. His plot with Dany in Game does not work from any pov--and I can go on and on about this. Through Game, Clash, Storm, LF outplays him. In Dance, he's reintroduced as Aegon's supporter. That's kind of sad in that we've already had one magnificent civil war, orchestrated by LF, and this second civil war is a mere repeat. The Walkers are coming. They were always coming. WotFK made it obvious that lords must put aside their dynastic aspirations at least temporarily to do something about a zombie apocalypse. A second civil war to underline that is totally unnecessary.

So yeah, I'd say Feast-Dance wrecked LF, and Varys was always wrecked.

I love this analysis...if only because I see readers consistently overrate LF and the game he is playing.  Particularly watching the show where everyone is like "LF would never go out that way, he's too smart, etc." I think in the books it will be pretty similar, he'll overplay his hand with Sansa and she'll beat him at his own game.  

I'll be really interested to see if Varys plays any role in Season 8.  He had that one scene in Episode 2 or 3 I think it was where Dany questioned his loyalty and the scene with Melisandre but outside of that he was pretty much entirely invisible all year.  As a book reader, not to get too spoilerish, but I wonder if the introduction of the Golden Company will give Varys something to do in the show.  Very doubtful it will, but I suppose it's a possibility.  

Edited by Tagganaro

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On 9/12/2017 at 10:10 AM, KINGpanther said:

I'm thinking he finds out Jon's king and tries to get Jon to betray Dany leading to his death.

That's Littlefinger's game, not Varys'.

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5 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I love this analysis...if only because I see readers consistently overrate LF and the game he is playing.  Particularly watching the show where everyone is like "LF would never go out that way, he's too smart, etc." I think in the books it will be pretty similar, he'll overplay his hand with Sansa and she'll beat him at his own game.

It's not that LF is brilliant, but that through Game-Storm, GRRM hands him ridiculous amounts of plot armor. Everything works for him. Ned accepts the Handship. Lysa never hints that something was off about Arryn's death. Cat meets Tyrion at the Inn. Ned never suspects LF. Joffrey kills Ned, getting rid of LF's only witness. Tyrion suspects LF, but does nothing about it. Joffrey is killed with Tyrion placed at the perfect spot to incriminate himself. LF's drunken jester manages multiple secret meetings with Sansa and gets her safely to the ship. GRRM allows LF to be so successful that his overplaying his hand seems wrong, given that he's been overplaying his hand and hitting bullseyes for multiple volumes. I'd prefer him to remain successful and active politically, and being taken down by something supernatural. I detested this season, but Bran as the person behind LF's downfall worked for me. Bran is supernatural. LF's plot armor applies in the natural, political realm. He has no protection from three eyed ravens, zombies, or ice demons.

Meanwhile, Varys...idk. I never got Varys, not in the novels, not in the show. Yes, possibly the Golden Company will give him more to do.

Edited by kimim

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I honestly think GRRM didn't tell D&D any plans he had with Varys as he played a smaller role in the overall story, if anything it would have been lumped into the fAegon plotline (if that is his endgame). Like I could guess that the bwb's plotline was not explained either for example. With that they have had to come up with an intention and role for Varys. We discuss intentions and have theories for characters whose actions influence the plot significantly but the characters themselves play little or no role in a way that be translated on screen (but is perfect in a doorstop novel). Because of that they have to be relegated to still be around but not doing anything significant that we see and their intentions are lumped together with other characters and let's face it Varys is an entertaining character (or was) so he is being kept around until he can serve a purpose that can be shown physically, maybe throw in some witty dialogue too or to have as an emotional death.

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8 hours ago, RetconKillah said:

I honestly think GRRM didn't tell D&D any plans he had with Varys as he played a smaller role in the overall story, if anything it would have been lumped into the fAegon plotline (if that is his endgame). Like I could guess that the bwb's plotline was not explained either for example. With that they have had to come up with an intention and role for Varys. We discuss intentions and have theories for characters whose actions influence the plot significantly but the characters themselves play little or no role in a way that be translated on screen (but is perfect in a doorstop novel). Because of that they have to be relegated to still be around but not doing anything significant that we see and their intentions are lumped together with other characters and let's face it Varys is an entertaining character (or was) so he is being kept around until he can serve a purpose that can be shown physically, maybe throw in some witty dialogue too or to have as an emotional death.

possible for sure. 

we are getting to the point in the story where characters do complete their arcs and there is no real point focusing on them. I recall in the final Sopranos season we stopped checking on characters as it went along since there was no point, literally their arc was done. they had made their final choice to be irredeemable. 

however, the vision in the flames during his castration has come up too much and too recently for that not to have some payoff. 

Season 3 he tells Tyrion about it. 

Season 6 Kinvara talks about. 

Season 7 Mel talks about him dying. 

It smells like a payoff is coming. 

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