apovsic

Mirri Maz Duur and Drogo's wound

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So when Drogo is wounded at the sacking of the city and Mirri Maz Duur offers to help him, did she really want to help him or was she already tried to kill him? She gave him some treatment that causes him to feel "burning" inside, so he tore it down an replace it with some other treatment that "cool down" his wound. He also drink a lot of alcohol which Miri forbade. And then after few days, he fells from the horse and his wound is infected.

It seems that Mirri realy tried to help him to me and he could be saved. Or I am missing something? Also Mirri didn't want to preform blood magic and was almost forced to do it. So why is Dany so harsh on her (I mean burning her alive:wacko:). Or was this only her revenge for her unborn child?

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Drogo and Dany are the "bad guys" in that plot without a doubt. Nothing that happened was Mirri's fault and she gets burned to death anyway. 

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I think that Mirri Maz Duur might well have started out trying to help, before the Blood Magic, perhaps because she was somewhat grateful to Daenerys for bringing her into her protection. However, when Daenerys talked her into using Blood Magic she purposely avoided telling her the true meaning of sacrifice as an act of revenge. Either way, I feel sorry for her even though she "betrayed" Daenerys because you can understand why she did what she did.

Besides, Drogo's death really was his own doing.

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Mirri was trying to help since the beggining. Also, she did offer more than fair warning and would have told Danny exactly what would happen if asked. 

Quote

“The time for that is past, my lady,” Mirri said. “All I can do now is ease the dark road before him, so he might ride painless to the night lands. He will be gone by morning.” Her words were a knife through Dany’s breast. What had she ever done to make the gods so cruel? She had finally found a safe place, had finally tasted love and hope. She was finally going home. And now to lose it all... “No,” she pleaded. “Save him, and I will free you, I swear it. You must know a way... some magic, some...” Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. “There is a spell.” Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. “But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands.” Dany went cold all over. “Then you truly are a maegi.” “Am I? Mirri Maz Duur smiled. “Only a maegi can save your rider now, Silver Lady.” “Is there no other way?” “No other.” Khal Drogo gave a shuddering gasp. “Do it,” Dany blurted. She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon. “Save him.” “There is a price,” the godswife warned her. “You’ll have gold, horses, whatever you like.” “It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life.” “Death?” Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. “My death?” She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved. “No,” Mirri Maz Duur promised. “Not your death, Khaleesi.” Dany trembled with relief. “Do it.”

As soon as Danny finds out it is not her death, she does not care what the price is. 

Burning people alive to ''Punish'' them is in her blood. 

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6 hours ago, apovsic said:

So when Drogo is wounded at the sacking of the city and Mirri Maz Duur offers to help him, did she really want to help him or was she already tried to kill him? She gave him some treatment that causes him to feel "burning" inside, so he tore it down an replace it with some other treatment that "cool down" his wound. He also drink a lot of alcohol which Miri forbade. And then after few days, he fells from the horse and his wound is infected.

It seems that Mirri realy tried to help him to me and he could be saved. Or I am missing something? Also Mirri didn't want to preform blood magic and was almost forced to do it. So why is Dany so harsh on her (I mean burning her alive:wacko:). Or was this only her revenge for her unborn child?

I have a feeling this will never be answered. Here's my best guess...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/107265-were-khal-drogo-and-and-his-unborn-son-offerings-for-the-great-shepherd/

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Yeah there's no evidence that Mirri Maz Duur was trying to do anything but help. There's even bigger questions about her though. Like why was someone who has been trained in Asshai, has trained with Grand Maester Marwyn, as well as trained in the arts of the Dothraki and Jogos Nhai. She seems a little over qualified for the position of village priestess. 

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Here we go again. Haha. I'm just kidding, I know damn near every topic has been covered on here at some point or another. The last time I read a thread on this subject the opinions were very polarized. Both sides made convincing arguments. 

 

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2 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Here we go again. Haha. I'm just kidding, I know damn near every topic has been covered on here at some point or another. The last time I read a thread on this subject the opinions were very polarized. Both sides made convincing arguments.

Thanks for the thread.

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I get a vague general impression that healing is more likely to be successful if it's based on fire, i.e. red, or hot, or burning or itching. And the opposite is true for ice based healing: blue (or white?), or cooling, or wet, or soothing. (And I'm thinking this is just a bad luck omen, rather than bad treatment.)

So Drogo starts off with a pale green paste and a burning, red paste, and changes to a cool, wet, soothing blue mud plaster.

Jon Arryn is initially treated with pepper juice as part of a purging and wasting treatment (fire consumes). This might have been effective ridding his body of the poison, but Pycelle changes the treatment to something more soothing, finishing with milk of the poppy.

Qyburn says: '...Try to burn out the corruption with boiling wine and a poultice of nettle, mustard seed, and bread mold.... You will want milk of the poppy--' (Jaime refuses milk of the poppy, and recovers well.)

Tyrion's face is initially treated with a mask of bandages and plaster (presumably white?), with milk of the poppy to make him sleep. He gets rid of these, and finishes with a wash of wine that burns like fire.

You'd need more examples to be sure of a pattern, but that's all I can think of at the moment. On balance, I think Mirri's initial treatment of Drogo was genuine.

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So I read the previous thread (well, first 4 pages) and it seems that most people consider only two extremes: MMD wanted Drogo (and his child) dead from the beginning or she never wanted theme to die. However, what if the truth lies somewhere in between? What if she initially wanted to help Drogo, but later turned against him. I'm not claiming that this is defiantly what happened, I just think we should consider this option.

So, after Dany saved MMD she was really grateful (I'd guess that you will be grateful if someone stop you from being raped) and really wanted to help Drogo in gratitude for being saved by Dany. But then she when the emotion calmed down and she started thinking, she started to hate Dany and Drogo. Yes, she was saved, but for what? She was a slave, her people were dead. Drogo was to blame for slaughter, but Dany was to blame for extending her misery. 

And thenDrogo fell from the horse and she was called into the tent. She quickly realized that Drogo will die and then Dany asked her to save him. When MMD told her that he's gone and Dany proposed blood magic, maybe something clicked in her and she started her revenge. I guess she knew (ok, this is crackpot) some sort of magic that demands to sacrifice something or someone really close Dany to bring Drogo back. Maybe she known that it will be Dany's child (sorry, forgot his name) or she didn't (she really wanted just someone close to Dany). So, she claimed that the horse is needed, even thought it was completely unnecessary and then she started a ritual, which would in the end ensure that Dany (or someone close to her) will enter the tent (yeah, I know, crackpot). So, what I'm saying that even if Jorah wouldn't carry her into the tent, something would happen that will result in Dany losing someone close (probably the child). And of course MMD knew all along that Drogo will turn in vegetable, so more revenge for her.

OTOH I don't know where to put the fact that she forbade to enter the tent. Maybe it was part of the ritual that the victim come into it uninvited? Well, I should stop before I wander to deep into this ...

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The proof that she betrayed Dany is in the way she talks to her when she goes to see Drogo. She's not sympathetic to her pain at all, she doesn't try to comfort her or ease the news, she never claims something went wrong, doesn't say she regrets the result. Every time Dany asks her something, she replies with a cold gut punch, and this is way before she starts threatening her.

Say a doctor turns someone's spouse into a vegetable after a failed operation and that person, not yet realizing the seriousness of the situation, asks the doctor to give them an estimate of when their loved one would recover. Do you think "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, etc." would be an appropriate response for a remorseful physician? Or is that more of a smug "I want to look at your face as you realize that it means never" sort of response?

Their following exchanges are even more proof:

Quote

"This was no god's work", Dany said coldly. [...] "You cheated me. You murdered the child within me."

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khaasar shall trample no nations into dust."

Quote

"Tell me again again what you saved."

"Your life."

Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look at your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone." 

 

Only after these exchanges does Dany decide to imprison Mirri, and as she is taken away, she "smiled at her [...] as if they shared a secret". I think all of this on top of the fact that Mirri never warned Dany explicitly about either result (she might have implied the child for a sane Drogo if she entered the tent at most) makes it pretty clear that she did it on purpose.

Edited by The Coconut God

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@apovsic

Ive always felt the answer lies between the two extremes as well. I think at first she did what she could to heal him. He completely disobeyed her orders in regards to how to treat the wound. Later when he is dying and Dany suggests "magic," Miri warns her that it's not pretty. "Some would say death is cleaner." But I don't think she was totally innocent because she clearly was only telling half truths. 

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10 hours ago, apovsic said:

So, after Dany saved MMD she was really grateful (I'd guess that you will be grateful if someone stop you from being raped) and really wanted to help Drogo in gratitude for being saved by Dany. But then she when the emotion calmed down and she started thinking, she started to hate Dany and Drogo. Yes, she was saved, but for what? She was a slave, her people were dead. Drogo was to blame for slaughter, but Dany was to blame for extending her misery. 

And thenDrogo fell from the horse and she was called into the tent. She quickly realized that Drogo will die and then Dany asked her to save him. When MMD told her that he's gone and Dany proposed blood magic, maybe something clicked in her and she started her revenge. I guess she knew (ok, this is crackpot) some sort of magic that demands to sacrifice something or someone really close Dany to bring Drogo back. Maybe she known that it will be Dany's child (sorry, forgot his name) or she didn't (she really wanted just someone close to Dany). So, she claimed that the horse is needed, even thought it was completely unnecessary and then she started a ritual, which would in the end ensure that Dany (or someone close to her) will enter the tent (yeah, I know, crackpot). So, what I'm saying that even if Jorah wouldn't carry her into the tent, something would happen that will result in Dany losing someone close (probably the child). And of course MMD knew all along that Drogo will turn in vegetable, so more revenge for her.

I think this is perhaps the best characterisation. At the beginning, under the immediate relief of being saved from more pain and before the shock and loss set in, Mirri's old self of a healer prompted her to offer help. But then she was force-marched after the khalassar, having plenty of time to  realize both the harshness of her new life as well as everything and everyone she had lost, and then this girl, who is the cause of everything (apparently, Mirri must have heard some gossip about the Stallion because she refers to him, and perhaps even about the planned conquest for Dany's birthright), comes asking for help after she didn't give two shits about Mirri's condition... I am not surprised that she took up her chance.

 

ETA: Or perhaps it was initially just quick thinking on Mirri's part - with Drogo's wound and Dany's visible pregnancy, there was a chance for a healer to ingratiate herself with her new masters and gain some position as well as better treatment - well, the better treatment didn't happen, so Mirri might have felt betrayed in this respect.

Edited by Ygrain

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On 10/11/2017 at 11:55 PM, Ygrain said:

I think this is perhaps the best characterisation. At the beginning, under the immediate relief of being saved from more pain and before the shock and loss set in, Mirri's old self of a healer prompted her to offer help. But then she was force-marched after the khalassar, having plenty of time to  realize both the harshness of her new life as well as everything and everyone she had lost, and then this girl, who is the cause of everything (apparently, Mirri must have heard some gossip about the Stallion because she refers to him, and perhaps even about the planned conquest for Dany's birthright), comes asking for help after she didn't give two shits about Mirri's condition... I am not surprised that she took up her chance.

 

ETA: Or perhaps it was initially just quick thinking on Mirri's part - with Drogo's wound and Dany's visible pregnancy, there was a chance for a healer to ingratiate herself with her new masters and gain some position as well as better treatment - well, the better treatment didn't happen, so Mirri might have felt betrayed in this respect.

Well put as always. These were my thoughts as well. In other threads on this subject it seems people go to one extreme or the other. Either 1) Mirri is a saint, or 2) she planned this revenge from the beginning. Although both sides made good arguments, I've always been more inclined into thinking along the lines that @Ygrain laid out. 

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On 10/10/2017 at 9:22 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

This is my guess as well, that being that unless George wants to tell us, we may never know.  By that I mean, I am not sure about the initial treatment that Mirri gave to Drogo, whether it was a true attempt at healing or not.  It's written as if it could have been an honest attempt at help, and the succeeding time spent with the Khalaasar led to the decision not to help the second time, to actively prevent a bad future outcome in MMD's perspective. 

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19 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

This is my guess as well, that being that unless George wants to tell us, we may never know.  By that I mean, I am not sure about the initial treatment that Mirri gave to Drogo, whether it was a true attempt at healing or not.  It's written as if it could have been an honest attempt at help, and the succeeding time spent with the Khalaasar led to the decision not to help the second time, to actively prevent a bad future outcome in MMD's perspective. 

I agree.  We know from reality that boiling wine can be used to kill bacteria, and the ointment 'burning' also fits with a legit attempt to heal him via a herbal antiseptic  I always thought once Dany basically demanded the spells that MMD already told her were a bad idea, she said fuck it, and intended to bring him back as a 'horse'....  But up until then she appears to have been truthful, even to the telling of Dany to stay out of the tent when she called the shadows....

Edited by Cas Stark

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I've struggled with this for a long time. I'm just not sure what to think here. I've seen compelling arguments on both sides. Some of the questions I'm still left with though are:

Why would MMD want to try to heal Drogo? Even if she feels some gratitude to Dany, which by her own words she doesn't, it was Drogo's people who raped & savaged her people & her land. 

On the other hand

If she purposely gave Drogo treatment that would make the infection worse rather than better she would know that if Drogo followed her treatment & died she would probably be raped & tortured & killed so that doesn't seem a very good option either. 

I've always leaned toward the idea that, whatever Mirri meant to do, Drogo would have been fine had he left the wound alone to heal without treatment. Of course that's my opinion. 

Mirri's intentions with Rhaego are even more questionable I think. She could have explained to Dany that Drogo would come back a vegtable - something she would have done if she meant no harm to any of them & she clearly shows no remorse for the death of the baby BUT she did tell Dany no one was to enter the tent. I'be heard it argued that MMD put the poultice on Drogo "forbidding" him to drink & to remove it knowing he would. I don't really buy that but there is no possible way out side of her being able to see the future for her to know Jorah would carry Dany into that tent. Is that what caused Rhaego's death? Probably. Maybe not though. Maybe Mirri took him from her womb & killed him herself. I've always questioned Rhaego's death because we are never given a baby or a body. That could be because, just as Mirri says, the baby turned to ash & therefore was nothing to show. 

All in all I think the answer is Mirri was not grateful to Dany for stopping the rape, nor was she hellbent on revenge. I think she probably was just trying to survive and eventually she got to know the Dothraki a little more, decided they were violent savages & then these opputunities presented themselves so she made the best of them. 

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  We know from reality that boiling wine can be used to kill bacteria, and the ointment 'burning' also fits with a legit attempt to heal him via a herbal antiseptic  I always thought once Dany basically demanded the spells that MMD already told her were a bad idea, she said fuck it, and intended to bring him back as a 'horse'....  But up until then she appears to have been truthful, even to the telling of Dany to stay out of the tent when she called the shadows....

LOLOL  I needed that, thank you for the idea of bringing back Drogo as a horse.  That is beautiful!!  A good laugh is always appreciated.  But yes, I think at first it was a true attempt at healing.  As is George's habit, though, it isn't made clear...........so it could go either way, thanks, George.  :P

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