Jon is not in the line of succession

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I thought "all Baratheons have black hair" was from the show, and in the books it's "all Baratheons who were the product of a marriage WITH A LANNISTER have black hair". Am I not remembering that correctly?

Robert and his 5 bastard children, Stannis and his daughter - all 8 of them had black hair, and dark blue eyes (probably they got blue eyes from Rhaelle Targaryen, who was wife of Robert's grandfather Ormund Baratheon). Renly also had dark hair, but green eyes (maybe from his mother Cassana). So Baratheons brand look is actually dark hair and eyes color based on second parent.

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

When ice zombies are on the march, not many people are going to care about whether some septon left written records of marriages taking place/being annulled.

Could be that Jon will defeat the Others, marry with Dany, and afterwards it will be revealed that he is legitimate son of Rhaegar. Though by that time, people will already acknowledge him as their ruler/saviour, and thus nobody will care about his origin.

Even in the Lord of the Rings, people followed Aragorn, not because he was son of some long forgotten king, but because he was a natural born leader, and a great warrior, and a good person that has earned everyone's trust and respect.

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

This line might be pretty important in the grand scheme of things. Someone will eventually see beyond the Stark look. I think a character like Barristan Selmy who spent most of his life around Targaryens, knew Rhaegar since he was a baby was purposely kept away from Winterfell when Robert traveled there.

I think that it will be Jon Con.

He was infected with grayscale, so if he wouldn't want to become crazy and die, then he may try to look for a cure. And the best place for it would be Citadel. Because all medics of Westeros are learning their skills there. So he will go to Oldtown, and will accidentally meet there Samwell Turly. Sam is interested in history and stuff like that, so he may realise who Jon Con is.

And because Sam is also very talkative, he will also tell Jon Con about from where he came, and that Jon Snow bastard of Ned Stark, and also Lord Commander of Night's Watch, is his best friend. When Jon Con will hear about Ned's bastard, he may realise, or at least start to suspect, that actually he is Rhaegar's son. So instead of going back to fAegon (whom he, at that point of time, will be already suspecting to be a pretender), he will go together with Sam to The Wall.

Or maybe Sam will be the one who will cure Jon Con. Thus in gratitude, Jon Con will escort him and Gilly back to Castle Black. There he will meet Jon, and eventually will notice resemblance between Jon's and Rhaegar's personalities.

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I hope Jaime will be able to shed some light on all of this. 

And I hope that GRRM didn't forgot to add this info. Because readers do want to know, what exactly happened during Robert's rebellion. If he won't reveal it in his last two books, I will feel cheated

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

They are the very best sellswords in the known world.

I don't doubt that they are good. Though I meant that they are, first of all, a merchants. They even sell their lives for money. Thus their loyalty, interests and motivations, in fAegon's support, are very questionable. 

Quote

They are also led by a man who is dead set on seeing his Prince on the Iron Throne before he dies.

Unless he will realise, that all this time he was supporting an imposter.

Quote

Most of their leaders are all progeny of Westerosi soldiers that fought in the Blackfyre Rebellions.

I don't remember from the Dance who they are, though from Mystery Knight (I have read it more recently than Dance), I was under impression, that the lords/knights/warriors that escaped, or were exiled by Targaryens to Essos, were supporters of Blackfyres.

If that is so, then it will also prove my theory, that fAegon is a secret Blackfyre. Could be that some of chiefs from Golden Company know that he is actually a Blackfyre, and not a lost Targaryen Prince. And they know that Varys gave this boy to Jon Con, and tricked him into thinking that the boy is son of Rhaegar.

Also could be that Varys "saved" fAegon because he planned to use him and Jon Con for whatever they are doing now in Westeros. Could be that from the very beginning, when Varys appeared in 7K, he was send there from Essos, by Blackfyres, that thru him planned to arrange their Fifth Rebellion. Though they were beaten to it by Robert, who rebelled before their plan was set in motion. 

 

Is there a theory that Varys is, and always was a Blackfyres' spy?

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The Baratheon's could carry Bb genes & would still have dark hair. I wouldn't say it's impossible for every Baratheon to have dark hair IRL but it would mean they would almost have to all carry the BB gene which seems unlikely. It could happen I suppose but that would mean that they always passed down their dominant B to their child & eradicated the recessive b shortly after else it would eventually crop up somewhere.

Yes, I know. Could be that they are either BB or Bb. Though Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, Mya Stone, Bella, Gendry, Edric Storm and Barra - all 9 of them have dark hair. And there was no any mentioning about any blond Baratheons, either from recent generations or from previous. So most likely, is that many of them indeed were carriers of BB, and among those that were Bb, their b gene was not only recessive, but also rarely was inherited by their children. So could be that even if Robert was Bb and he did had a baby with Cersei, who is a bb carrier, then most likely their children's chances of being Bb or bb, weren't 50/50 %, but raither 100% Bb - and five other Robert's children prove this theory. Seems that if Baratheons do have a b genes, then they are dormant, and don't pass to offsprings.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yes, I know. Could be that they are either BB or Bb. Though Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, Mya Stone, Bella, Gendry, Edric Storm and Barra - all 9 of them have dark hair. And there was no any mentioning about any blond Baratheons, either from recent generations or from previous. So most likely, is that many of them indeed were carriers of BB, and among those that were Bb, their b gene was not only recessive, but also rarely was inherited by their children. So could be that even if Robert was Bb and he did had a baby with Cersei, who is a bb carrier, then most likely their children's chances of being Bb or bb, weren't 50/50 %, but raither 100% Bb - and five other Robert's children prove this theory. Seems that if Baratheons do have a b genes, then they are dormant, and don't pass to offsprings.

My point exactly, which is not how it works IRL, which is why I said this indicates GRRM is not basing it on RL genetics

[maudisdottir]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Robert and his 5 bastard children, Stannis and his daughter - all 8 of them had black hair, and dark blue eyes (probably they got blue eyes from Rhaelle Targaryen, who was wife of Robert's grandfather Ormund Baratheon). Renly also had dark hair, but green eyes (maybe from his mother Cassana). So Baratheons brand look is actually dark hair and eyes color based on second parent.

But that’s not the point - Ned was only checking the Baratheon/Lannister unions, not every Baratheon ever born. We don’t know about the other couplings (eg Targaryen/Baratheon) because that’s not what Ned was researching:

Quote

Grand Maester Maellon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding to the coal.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Robert and his 5 bastard children, Stannis and his daughter - all 8 of them had black hair, and dark blue eyes (probably they got blue eyes from Rhaelle Targaryen, who was wife of Robert's grandfather Ormund Baratheon). Renly also had dark hair, but green eyes (maybe from his mother Cassana). So Baratheons brand look is actually dark hair and eyes color based on second parent.

This is one of the mistakes that George admitted to, along with the gender of Jaime's horse changing, and the size of Jeyne Westerling's hip. It was an author mistake. Renly has blue eyes, and he is comapred to Robert's, and even Stannis's and Gendry's blue eyes after this "green" incident.

 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Is there a theory that Varys is, and always was a Blackfyres' spy?

 

There is a long-standing theory that Varys is a Blackfyre himself, through the female line, and so was Illyrio's wife (perhaps Varys' sister), and that fAegon is actually Illyrio's son. It ties in with Illyrio's remark that the Blackfyre male line is extinct, the boy clothes in his house and his apparent sentiment about fAegon, as well as Varys' actions that definitely didn't benefit House Targaryen. It would also explain why they were willing to spend decades to see the fruition of their plan.

It is also possible that there is some Brightflame heritage but the infodumps we are getting are mainly on Blackfyres, so pulling a secret Blackfyre restoration under the pretense of a Targaryen heir is way more probable.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

I don't doubt that they are good. Though I meant that they are, first of all, a merchants. They even sell their lives for money. Thus their loyalty, interests and motivations, in fAegon's support, are very questionable. 

They sell their swords for money not their lives. Westerosi Lords and their allegiance can be just as questionable, if not more, as we see with Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, Tywin Lannister and many others who'v switched sides when it benefited them.

However unlike with usual sellsword contracts, the Golden Company actually swear allegiance to (f)Aegon before they invade Westeros. Making him their king in the process. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Unless he will realise, that all this time he was supporting an imposter.

He's been with (f)Aegon for the past decade, why would he start suspecting he's not Rhaegar's now all of a sudden? Jon Con not only believes (f)Aegon is Rhaegar's son but Jon Con raised the boy and protected him like he was his own son. I highly doubt that now, of all times, he'd abandoned his foster son, who he believes is the son of his beloved Prince. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

that the lords/knights/warriors that escaped, or were exiled by Targaryens to Essos, were supporters of Blackfyres.

How did you convince the Golden Company to take up the cause of our sweet queen when they have spent so much of their history fighting against the Targaryens?-Tyrion

Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon. When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre. And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home.-Illyrio

As stated by Ilyrio they don't care what color dragon takes them home, Red-Targaryen or Black-Blackfyre. They see themselves as Westerosi exiles and want to go home and will support who will take them there, which as it turns out, was (f)Aegon and not Daenerys. They are all in with him just like Jon Con. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

then it will also prove my theory, that fAegon is a secret Blackfyre.

lol "Your theory" has been around for years and years and while it's probably true it still changes nothing for the time being. Right now Jon Con and the Golden Company are fighting to put (f)Aegon on Throne. There is a good chance the Dornish will join him as well. All is going to plan for Varys and Illyrio, right now anyway. I don't see how Jon Snow will be the one to change any of this as he has his own problems to deal with in the North. Daenerys is the much more likely candidate to confront (f)Aegon.  

[Pikachu101]

11 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jon wouldn't be a Blackfyre either seeing as he's not a descendant of Daemon Blackfyre.

I meant in the sense that similar to Daemon Blackfyre Jon would be attempting to take the throne from his trueborn older brother, not people would suspect Jon of being an actual Blackfyre. All the characters do this, they compare bastards to the Blackfyres to justify why they're not to be trusted so Jon would be paralleled to Daemon even if he's not a descendent. But the argument's moot because Jon wouldn't rebel against Aegon.

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Robert and his 5 bastard children, Stannis and his daughter - all 8 of them had black hair, and dark blue eyes (probably they got blue eyes from Rhaelle Targaryen, who was wife of Robert's grandfather Ormund Baratheon). Renly also had dark hair, but green eyes (maybe from his mother Cassana). So Baratheons brand look is actually dark hair and eyes color based on second parent.

But that’s not the point - Ned was only checking the Baratheon/Lannister unions, not every Baratheon ever born. We don’t know about the other couplings (eg Targaryen/Baratheon) because that’s not what Ned was researching:

Quote

Grand Maester Maellon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding to the coal.

 

But we do know about other couplings - Robert and his lovers. He was also checking Robert's bastards:

Spoiler

"Eddard investigates Jon Arryn's activities before his death, and he discovers that Jon spent a great deal of time with Lord Stannis Baratheon and had been visiting several of Robert's bastard children in the city.^[19][21]

When Eddard Stark investigates the death of Jon Arryn, he meets several people who had met with Arryn shortly before his death, including Gendry. At once he sees the similarity with Robert Baratheon and recognizes that Gendry is his bastard.

Young Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, fathered Mya, his first child, on a commoner^[5] while he and Eddard Stark were being fostered in the Vale

Robert often brought Ned along during his daily visits to see Mya, even after he lost interest in her mother.^[4]

Before his planned departure from King's Landing to return to Winterfell, Eddard visits another of Robert's bastard children, a girl named Barra, found by Lord Baelish.

The child is an infant with thin, dark hair.^[1]She resembles Mya Stone as a child.^[2]

After having discovered Gendry, Lord Eddard Stark thinks about all of King Robert I Baratheon's bastards that he knows about, Edric included.^[7] "

"Gendry, when Lord Arryn came to see you, what did you talk about?”

“He asked me questions is all, m’lord.”

“What sort of questions?”

The boy shrugged. “How was I, and was I well treated, and if I liked the work, and stuff about my mother. Who she was and what she looked like and all.”

“What did you tell him?” Ned asked.

The boy shoved a fresh fall of black hair off his forehead. “She died when I was little. She had yellow hair".

So Ned also compared 3 Cersei's children to Gendry, Edric, Mya, Barra, and who knows how many other Robert's bastards. There's 11 more of his children. Most likely majority of them lived at King's Landing, because Robert has frequented local brothels. Ned knew that Gendry's mother had blond hair, he knew Delena Florent who was Edric's mother, he knew mother of Mya, and met with mother of Barra.

So he made a conclusion, that no matter what was mother's hair color, all of Robert's children had black hair. Even from mothers who had blond hair like Cersei. And in all previous generations of Baratheons, even amongst those whose offsprings were children of Lannister parent, still were all dark haired.

Ned based his conclusion on past and present Baratheons, on many generations. And all of them had dark hair.

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Renly has blue eyes, and he is comapred to Robert's, and even Stannis's and Gendry's blue eyes after this "green" incident.

Could be that Renly's green eyes were mistake. So if he has/had blue eyes, then all Baratheon's are dark haired and blue-eyed - Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, and 4 of known Robert's bastards. 8 people with Baratheons brand looks.

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

However unlike with usual sellsword contracts, the Golden Company actually swear allegiance to (f)Aegon before they invade Westeros. Making him their king in the process. 

Having an army doesn't make person a king. This only makes him a warlord.

And warlord is not even a real lord, with castle, lands, family House, heritage sigil, etc.

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

He's been with (f)Aegon for the past decade, why would he start suspecting he's not Rhaegar's now all of a sudden?

Because now, when they are finally close to their goal, they will gradually drop their stealth mode, and will start to act in the open. It may begin with small things, fAegon or chiefs of GC doing something, without consulting or warning Jon Con about it, or doing sudden things, that will seems to Jon as unnecessary or over the top. Sort of like "grey cardinal" revealing his presense.

(Grey cardinal, éminence grise, power behind the throne - i.e. powerful decision-maker or adviser who operates "behind the scenes" or, in a non-public or unofficial capacity.)

So first Jon Con will see "strings" attached to fAegon, and then realise that someone is using those strings, to make fAegon's movements. Then he will follow up, after those strings, and see whoever is a puppetier, behind the scenes of fAegon's spectacle.

They will stop hiding from/minding Jon Con, because by that point, he will already fully accomplish, what they have planned for his role to be - to lead fAegon on stage of 7K, and present him to Westerosian public, as Rhaegar's prince. He was supposed to raise the boy to be like Rhaegar was, and to vouch for his identity.

And after that, they planned to get rid of him.

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

As stated by Ilyrio they don't care what color dragon takes them home, Red-Targaryen or Black-Blackfyre. They see themselves as Westerosi exiles and want to go home and will support who will take them there, which as it turns out, was (f)Aegon and not Daenerys.

Though they also want to marry the boy with Dany, to have all trump cards in their hands + ->

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

They are all in with him just like Jon Con. 

if they were really Aegon's supporters, without any additional shady motives, they wouldn't want him to marry with Dany. Because it would mean for him, sharing his power and accomplishments with her. But if he is not an independent entity, then it entirely changes the outcome of this marriage - they (the puppeteers) will have control over fAegon AND Dany.

Illyrio didn't supported/raised Dany and Viserys for years, to just suddenly change his allegiance to a new Targaryen heir. All this "support" is just acting, to eventually get control over 7K, and place "their" protege on Iron Throne.

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

13 hours ago, Megorova said:

then it will also prove my theory, that fAegon is a secret Blackfyre.

lol "Your theory" has been around for years and years and while it's probably true it still changes nothing for the time being.

I know that, though in my post by "my theory", I was referring specifically to a theory that I wrote here before - about fAegon being added into story, for the sake of Blackfyres bringing back to 7K, ancestral sword of Targaryens. If those knights are Blackfyres supporters, then they may have that sword hidden somewhere, and they could have brought it to Westeros.      

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

All is going to plan for Varys and Illyrio, right now anyway. I don't see how Jon Snow will be the one to change any of this as he has his own problems to deal with in the North. Daenerys is the much more likely candidate to confront (f)Aegon.  

I also think the one dealing with pretender will be Dany. Most likely it will be her dragons, who will reveal that he is not a Targaryen. And after she will off him, the Others will cross The Wall, and Jon will herald all lords of 7K to fight against Undead Army. That's when he and Dany will meet, and her dragons will feel that he is "one of theirs", a relative, the last dragon .

[The Fattest Leech]

 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Could be that Renly's green eyes were mistake. So if he has/had blue eyes, then all Baratheon's are dark haired and blue-eyed - Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, and 4 of known Robert's bastards. 8 people with Baratheons brand looks.

Yes, Baratheon all have the “brand” look. I like that description you used. The author most definitely simplified the genetics because this is a work of literary fiction, not real life, and that includes what the Targs look like based on birth order. It is for plot purposes only. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Could be that Renly's green eyes were mistake. So if he has/had blue eyes, then all Baratheon's are dark haired and blue-eyed - Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, and 4 of known Robert's bastards. 8 people with Baratheons brand looks.

Renly's green eyes are a product of his magicked armor made by Tobho Mott who knows the spells.  Anyone wearing that armor will have green eyes.   

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

if they were really Aegon's supporters, without any additional shady motives, they wouldn't want him to marry with Dany. Because it would mean for him, sharing his power and accomplishments with her. But if he is not an independent entity, then it entirely changes the outcome of this marriage - they (the puppeteers) will have control over fAegon AND Dany.

They are definitely puppeteers alright but that doesn't mean they wouldn't want him to marry Dany if it wasn't the case - he has to marry someone, after all, and marrying her solidifies his claim.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Illyrio didn't supported/raised Dany and Viserys for years, to just suddenly change his allegiance to a new Targaryen heir. All this "support" is just acting, to eventually get control over 7K, and place "their" protege on Iron Throne.

But he didn't support them for years, only for about six months.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Quote

Illyrio didn't supported/raised Dany and Viserys for years, to just suddenly change his allegiance to a new Targaryen heir. All this "support" is just acting, to eventually get control over 7K, and place "their" protege on Iron Throne.

But he didn't support them for years, only for about six months.

That's when he started supporting them in the open.

By original support, I don't mean that he (and Varys) always was their protector/benefactor, to fAegon and Jon Con, Viserys and Dany. I mean that he (and Varys, and Blackfyres) was watching them from afar, without interveining into their lives, unless there happened some critical situations. Because it's very unlikely that two Targaryens managed to survive in Essos, on their own, without someone else's support, after death of their original caretaker Willem Darry. How else did two children with their looks, managed to avoid being kidnapped and sold on slave market, if they had no one who was guarding them from the shadows?

"Illyrio has kept an eye on the remaining Targaryens, Viserys and Daenerys, for years whilst they lived in exile in the Free Cities.^[1]".

Then they (conspirators) set in motion first part of their plan, by setting up marriage between Dany and Khal Drogo. To do that, Illyrio had to become their official guardian.

Blackfyres didn't needed two Targaryen princes, and eventually they have chosen fAegon to be their representative, thus they got rid of Viserys. And Dany was supposed to be chilling at Khal Drogo's household, until/if they will need to use her, as an addition player/pawn in their game.

 

Willem Darry was planning to marry Viserys and Arianne Martell. Then Quentin Martell wanted to marry with Dany. Now They (conspirators) plan to marry fAegon and Arianne.

Seems that Dorne is playing a crutial role in their plan, since the very beginning. So it's unlikely that they did something about that only recently. I mean - probably they had their own people installed in Dorne. My guess is that Gerold Dayne is one of their people. Could be that he is a Blackfyres supporter, or even a secret Blackfyre himself, maybe fAegon's brother.

If he will suddenly pop up somewhere near fAegon or his people, I wouldn't be surprised.

Why I think that he is a Blackfyre, and not who he pretends to be:

Spoiler

1. He's supposedly from Dorne, from branch House of Daynes, cousin of Arthur Dayne, but he has a typical for Valyrians looks: "A handsome man, he has a clean-shaven face with an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, dark purple eyes, and a strong jaw. Gerold has thick silver hair that reaches his collar, divided by a streak of midnight black.^[4]"

"Among the traits passed on to the Blackfyres by the Targaryens were platinum blond hair, violet eyes".

2. "If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great? I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own.^[4] " <- this words could mean that Gerold Dayne is not his real name. While Darkstar is his Blackfyre "name". Like Aegor Rivers - Bittersteel, Daemon I Blackfyre/Daemon Waters - The Black Dragon, Shiera Seastar, Brynden Rivers - Lord Bloodraven, Quentyn Ball - Fireball, Maelys I Blackfyre - Maelys the Monstrous, Aerion Targaryen - Brightflame.

Also why did he said about quarter of a million men? Martells don't have, and never had 250.000 soldiers. But even if they did, why would command over them be given to Gerold Dayne, and not to Oberyn, Areo Hotah, or one of Sands, or one of Dalts, or one of Lords amongst their loyal bannermen? Why did he even thought that one day he could lead an army of 250 thousands men? Maybe because he was promised to be given post of Commander of united armies of Blackfyres, including troops of Martells, Golden Company, and others.

3. "I was weaned on venom, Dalt. Any viper takes a bite of me will rue it.^[4]" <- this could also have a meaning that he was raised in lies, always pretending/lying, venom = lies.

4. "Myrcella: Are you the Sword of the Morning now?

Gerold: Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night." <- could mean that he is from the Blacks/Blackfyres.

5. "You were a fool to make him part of this. Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne. You and he have done us all great harm. - Doran Martell to Arianne Martell." <- could be that Doran knew that Darkstar is a Blackfyre, and by revealing to him plan to crown Myrcella, Arianne made it known to Blackfyres that, aside from participating in conspiration with Blackfyres, Martells are also trying to pull their own moves behind Blackfyres' backs.

6. "Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It's just a pity that he never got around to killing him. - Daemon Sand to Arianne Martell."

"While in Braavos, Willem was visited by Oberyn Martell and together, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness, they signed a pact promising that Viserys Targaryen would one day wed Arianne Martell in return for the support of Dorne in winning Viserys the Iron Throne."

Could be that Oberyn was the contact of Blackfyres in Martells family. Thus he knew who Darkstar really was.

Though I'm only 25% serious about this theory.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Having an army doesn't make person a king. This only makes him a warlord.

And warlord is not even a real lord, with castle, lands, family House, heritage sigil, etc.

A King or Queen taking back a Throne from a hostile enemy needs an army above all else. If that wasn't the case then (f)Aegon and Daenerys would have gotten no farther then Viserys did. Viserys had everything they had except an army, he spent most of his life looking for one. Now (f)Aegon and Daenerys have an army and a claim. (f)Aegon already has a foothold in Westeros.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Because now, when they are finally close to their goal, they will gradually drop their stealth mode, and will start to act in the open. It may begin with small things, fAegon or chiefs of GC doing something, without consulting or warning Jon Con about it, or doing sudden things, that will seems to Jon as unnecessary or over the top. Sort of like "grey cardinal" revealing his presense.

(Grey cardinal, éminence grise, power behind the throne - i.e. powerful decision-maker or adviser who operates "behind the scenes" or, in a non-public or unofficial capacity.)

So first Jon Con will see "strings" attached to fAegon, and then realise that someone is using those strings, to make fAegon's movements. Then he will follow up, after those strings, and see whoever is a puppetier, behind the scenes of fAegon's spectacle.

They will stop hiding from/minding Jon Con, because by that point, he will already fully accomplish, what they have planned for his role to be - to lead fAegon on stage of 7K, and present him to Westerosian public, as Rhaegar's prince. He was supposed to raise the boy to be like Rhaegar was, and to vouch for his identity.

And after that, they planned to get rid of him.

"Discipline is like mother's milk to the men of the Golden Company." All the commanders are under Jon Con's and (f)Aegons command. This head cannon you got going  about "chiefs dropping stealth mode" is a neat theory I guess. I just don't see it happening. 

The Golden Company is not going to leave Aegon's side and fight for Tommen and the Lannisters. Jon Con knows who's supporting (f)Aegon, Varys is the one who gave him the boy to raise to a man. He knows Varys and Illyrio are invested in him winning the crown and have there motives. All he's worried about right now is winning the war and putting his foster son on the Throne. I think he's taking it step by step.

They won't need to kill him even if they wanted to because Jon Con is already going to be a goner from greyscale. 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

if they were really Aegon's supporters, without any additional shady motives, they wouldn't want him to marry with Dany. Because it would mean for him, sharing his power and accomplishments with her.

Like @Ygrain said a marriage to Daenerys strengthens (f)Aegon's claim. It was their plan to marry them until Daenerys went down a different path and when it became apparent she was staying in Slaver's Bay, they were ready to move on without Dany and her Unsullied and dragons. Despite what Illyrio wanted.

Lysono: The first Aegon took Westeros without eunuchs. Why shouldn't the sixth Aegon do the same?

Harry: The plan—

Tristan: Which plan? ... The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothrakiscreamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be his sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well. I have had enough of Illyrio's plans. Robert Baratheon won the Iron Throne without the benefit of dragons. We can do the same.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

I know that, though in my post by "my theory", I was referring specifically to a theory that I wrote here before - about fAegon being added into story, for the sake of Blackfyres bringing back to 7K, ancestral sword of Targaryens. If those knights are Blackfyres supporters, then they may have that sword hidden somewhere, and they could have brought it to Westeros

Many readers already believe (f)Aegon will eventually take Blackfyre into battle. Which wouldn't prove he's a Blackfyre or Targaryen as the sword represents both Aegon the Conqueror and Daemon Blackfyre. I doubt the GC, (f)Aegon, Varys, Illyrio and Jon Con were all only brought into the series just to bring in the Blackfyre sword, as cool as it may be.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But he didn't support them for years, only for about six months.

Good point. In which time he was able to arrange the Dothraki marriage. 

[maudisdottir]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

And in all previous generations of Baratheons, even amongst those whose offsprings were children of Lannister parent, still were all dark haired.

Ned based his conclusion on past and present Baratheons, on many generations. And all of them had dark hair.

No, that's not confirmed. He was only looking at the Baratheon/Lannister offspring. So it's not correct to say Baratheon genes are dominant, eg Jocelyne Baratheon's children should have had black hair, because unless she married a Lannister it's not relevant to Ned's investigations.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Many readers already believe (f)Aegon will eventually take Blackfyre into battle. Which wouldn't prove he's a Blackfyre or Targaryen as the sword represents both Aegon the Conqueror and Daemon Blackfyre. I doubt the GC, (f)Aegon, Varys, Illyrio and Jon Con were all only brought into the series just to bring in the Blackfyre sword, as cool as it may be.

Not all of them were brought into the story just for the sake of Blackfyre sword's return. I meant that fAegon's contribution to main event of the ASOIAF (the war against Others) will be to leave the sword for Jon to take it, when fAegon will be eliminated.

Aegon is Blackfyres' poster boy. Jon Con is their pawn. Varys and Illyrio are puppetiers.

While Blackfyres' last King is

Spoiler

Barristan Selmy.

 

But he's not the person in charge of Blackfyre's Fifth Rebellion because, as Illyrio said about him, he "is a valiant knight and true; but none, I think, has ever called him cunning."

He was raised in 7K by his lord father, and when he met Targaryens, instead of plotting against them with other Blackfyres, he befriended them and became their loyalist.

His mother was Blackfyre. His older half-brother Daemon Blackfyre (by the same mother (probably daughter of Aenys Blackfyre (who was executed by Brynden Rivers), and a different father) was supposed to be next King of Blackfyres, but he was killed by his cousin Maelys.

There are other Blackfyres besides him. Varys and Illyrio are serving to them. Maybe both of them are also Blackfyres, or at least one of them.

Other secret Blackfyres or their supporters are:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aurane_Waters

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Gerold_Dayne

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mandon_Moore

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Balon_Swann

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Belwas

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Anguy 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Salladhor_Saan

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jalabhar_Xho

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hugh_Grandison

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Narbert_Grandison

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Selwyn_Tarth

FAegon is his grandson.

I'm partially joking. Though I think that there should be something more to a person like him, who has accomplished so many heroic deeds, and is the greatest living knight. To make him a mere servant is a waste of a great character, who could be so much more, than he currently is.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I meant that fAegon's contribution to main event of the ASOIAF (the war against Others) will be to leave the sword for Jon to take it, when fAegon will be eliminated.

hmmm, ok, I'll bite. And how do you see this going down then?

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though I think that there should be something more to a person like him, who has accomplished so many heroic deeds, and is the greatest living knight. To make him a mere servant is a waste of a great character, who could be so much more, than he currently is.

Well, he's served many Kings and turned his white cloak several times by switching allegiances. If not for Joffrey's and Cersei's stupidity, he'd most likely still be in King's Landing serving Tommen, had they not fired him and shamed him in public. Who knows, with Daenerys currently missing and her whereabouts unknown he could get word that Rhaegar's son is in Westeros fighting for the Throne and seek him out for a spot in his KG. Maybe he's going for some type of record? Though I think he'll probably stay in Slaver's Bay if he survives the battle, he's basically Daenerys' right hand man and is ruling Meereen in her name. Time will tell I guess.

[300 H&H Magnum]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:20 AM, Megorova said:

That is utterly ridiculous. There's no such thing as temporary death. And what will release Jon from his vows, is when Brothers will say at his eulogy "And now his watch is ended.", which is a custom for Night's Watch. The fact of death alone, doesn't end all obligations that the person had. For example if someone had a debt and died, then that person's family will have to pay in place of that person. Though there are certain vows that are valid only until pledger's death, for example marriage vow, or Night's Watch vow. In both of them it is said "until death". Nevertheless death doesn't change person's identity, or who his/her parents are, and doesn't change his/her DNA. What gives Jon right to be heir for Iron Throne is the identity of his father, who was Crown Prince of Targaryen dinasty. Even though Rhaegar died, he still remained Jon's father. Even though Jon died, his parents are still Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. And the only reason why Jon can't be King of 7K, is because he is dead. Though when he will become alive again, he will still be son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and thus he will be successor of Targaryens

Jon will never be legally free of the oaths that he took.  If he should come back to life he will be expected to honor those oaths.  What I find silly is the double standards that Jon's fans are claiming.  That Jon will be relieved of those oaths if he gets resurrected is false.  

I do not believe R+L=J, so you and I will disagree. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jon will never be legally free of the oaths that he took.  If he should come back to life he will be expected to honor those oaths.  What I find silly is the double standards that Jon's fans are claiming.  That Jon will be relieved of those oaths if he gets resurrected is false.  

Out of curiosity do you think Jon will serve in the NW for the remainder of the story? If not how do you think he will get out of it? 

What double standard are Jon fans claiming? I understand you disagree with it but I don't understand how it is a double standard to believe he will be relieved of his duty after dying.  He took an oath until death. If death does not free him from said oath why take the oath at all? 

I think you are wrong. Jon's death most certainly relieves him of the oath. If he were not resurrected he would be relieved of the oath - not because he wasn't resurrected but because he died. So being resurrected really has nothing to do with it as the oath was taken until death, upon Jon's death he is freed from the oath. I don't really understand how it could be any other way. 

[divica]

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Out of curiosity do you think Jon will serve in the NW for the remainder of the story? If not how do you think he will get out of it? 

What double standard are Jon fans claiming? I understand you disagree with it but I don't understand how it is a double standard to believe he will be relieved of his duty after dying.  He took an oath until death. If death does not free him from said oath why take the oath at all? 

I think you are wrong. Jon's death most certainly relieves him of the oath. If he were not resurrected he would be relieved of the oath - not because he wasn't resurrected but because he died. So being resurrected really has nothing to do with it as the oath was taken until death, upon Jon's death he is freed from the oath. I don't really understand how it could be any other way. 

Actually I don t even know how binding his oath even is. He basically promised a series of things based on false premises. How can a oath to wear no crown by someone who doesn t know he has a right to wear a crown have any meaning?
It is like kidnaping a baby, lieing to him his intire life saying he is a bastard and has no heritage and then sending him to the NW to take oaths... Are these oaths valid?

 

Then you can also say that jon snow swore things, but Aegon targaryen (or whatever is his name) did no such thing and consider that the moment jon takes that name he becomes a new person.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, divica said:

Actually I don t even know how binding his oath even is. He basically promised a series of things based on false premises. How can a oath to wear no crown by someone who doesn t know he has a right to wear a crown have any meaning?
It is like kidnaping a baby, lieing to him his intire life saying he is a bastard and has no heritage and then sending him to the NW to take oaths... Are these oaths valid?

 

Then you can also say that jon snow swore things, but Aegon targaryen (or whatever is his name) did no such thing and consider that the moment jon takes that name he becomes a new person.

Agreed. Even barring all of that there are ways to get out of the NW. They were going to allow Maester Aemon out to be King because he was next in the line of succession.