Lost season 6

[The hairy bear]

None of the fan maps are really accurate, and are only as good as the last episode and the last update. Expect this latest episode to send cartographers scurrying back to make the Black Rock as close to the statue as possible. That shouldn't be too much of a problem, as in prior seasons the Losties only went to the Black Rock, not 'beyond' it to the coast and the statue, and without the rest of the statue jutting up above the treeline they wouldn't even know they were close to it.

IMO the problem with this is that in season 1's Exodus, Danielle took the group from the Beach Camp to the Black Rock in less than a day (they were under the threat of an imminent of the others, and the raft departed the same day).

So, by this token, the Black Rock should be close to the beach. But the Statue can't be close to the beach because otherwise the survivors would have seen it sooner, and it took a long trip on Desmond's boat to get to the four-toed foot.

I guess that the fact is just that the writers have never cared much about the distances and locations on the island.

[Hooplehead]

I think statistically it's likely. Of the major serial shows that have ended in the last five years, how many of them ended both believably, and in a fashion that satisfied most of the fans?

Sure, I've known for awhile that the ending would be a disappointment on some level because mine and everyone else's expectations are so high. I've been expected perhaps a good ending that would just leave me wanting in some areas. But now I'm unfortunately starting to think that not just the actual ending itself, but most of the reveal is going to be... crappy.

Why? Because it seems like they are putting off and delaying any revelation of the backstory or what's actually "going on" to the very end. I mean, we're halfway through the last season, we just had an episode giving us some insight into one of the most mysterious characters on the show... and we still have no idea WTF is going on. I'm fearful that the reveal is going to be really bad/lame, they know it, and they don't want to give it up in the middle of the season and have the ratings tank before the finale.

[kauldron26]

MIB and Jacob remind me of Ruin and Preservation from the Misborn series by Brandon Sanderson. Anyone else consider this?

[HP Loveshaft]

So it turns out that Richard is just as clueless as everyone else on the island. Great.

Just like Ben went from Big Bad to also apparently clueless.

It would be pretty funny if Jacob and Smokey were clueless too.

[Trebla]

One man touches another man and makes him immortal. Yet a giant tsunami carrying a ship clear across an island turns this into the WORST.EPISODE.EVER?

We fanboys deserve the rep we get. :P

[Jon AS]

One man touches another man and makes him immortal. Yet a giant tsunami carrying a ship clear across an island turns this into the WORST.EPISODE.EVER?

We fanboys deserve the rep we get. :P

This kind of argument gets trotted out way too often. Just because a story contains supernatural elements does not mean that any lapses in logic and common sense the storyteller makes are automatically a-ok. If the ship had been transported into the middle of the jungle by something completely supernatural nobody would be complaining, but a really big wave is just a really big wave and is expected to act like one would in the real world.

That said, I've long since given up on the idea that the writers give a damn if it is possible to draw a map of the island that makes sense. The thing that bugged me about this episode was what others have mentioned already: that they seem to be working through a list of things to adress before the show is over, caring more about not leaving anything out (we've got to explain how the statue got destroyed!) than about giving the explanations any real impact (uh, it got hit by a really big wave?).

[red snow]

Titus Welliver is one hell of an (accidental rhyming) actor. He totally channelled Flocke's mannerisms and actions and convinced me they were the same person. He must have been watching Terry O'quinns performances. It's a shame that Dollhouse is dead as he would have made an excellent Doll. He needs to get a big role in a good show.

Otherwise the episode was ok. The members of the Black rock were somewhat shortlived and i'm still confused how the ship could be the one that we saw at the end of season 5 (because it was daylight then and it was nightime). I have to admit i much preferred 19th century Jacob as he seemed to be far more straight forward - 21st century Jacob has obviously watched too many overly enigmatic TV shows. I hope this wasn't just lousy characterization and there's some story to it though as it also struck me as odd how Jacob was proclaiming that he has to let people choose their own path - the complete opposite to what he does now. Maybe MiB became more of a handful requiring dirtier tactics.

Werthead: Snap on the "I am in Supernatural".

[Trebla]

This kind of argument gets trotted out way too often. Just because a story contains supernatural elements does not mean that any lapses in logic and common sense the storyteller makes are automatically a-ok. If the ship had been transported into the middle of the jungle by something completely supernatural nobody would be complaining, but a really big wave is just a really big wave and is expected to act like one would in the real world.

That's a really big assumtion there that it was just a really big wave. Because it was a really big wave that happened right on top of a mystical, magnetic, healing, death dealing island where guns and dynamite don't go off when they should. And planes crash and people wake up on the jungle floor.

[Kalbear]

Eh. I don't have a problem with the geography of the island being completely fucked up; they've already commented on this multiple times on the show itself, most notably with the lighthouse recently.

I just have a problem with them resolving things by doing it in really meh ways. So the reason the statue was in ruins is because of a big wave. That's...not that special to me. It's certainly nothing I couldn't have done without, and it had the same emotional impact as Jacob saying something like 'oh yeah, it got destroyed by an earthquake some years back'. I didn't need bad CGI to do it for a minute.

Likewise, how did the Black Rock get in the middle of the island? I don't really care that much, and it wasn't a big deal that a wave carried it 9 miles inland. It's just not that big a deal to me.

This show has always been about character moments and less on explicit plot points, so I shouldn't be too surprised. (I say character moments instead of characters because the characters are fairly mutable; remember Sawyer crushing a treefrog?) It's still disappointing that we're not getting good answers to mysteries. This is the problem with setting up mysteries, I suppose; if you don't have good answers for them you'd rather have just not had them in the first place. BSG fucked that up; I'd be surprised if Lost didn't.

[Ken Stone]

This kind of argument gets trotted out way too often. Just because a story contains supernatural elements does not mean that any lapses in logic and common sense the storyteller makes are automatically a-ok. If the ship had been transported into the middle of the jungle by something completely supernatural nobody would be complaining, but a really big wave is just a really big wave and is expected to act like one would in the real world.

Didn't Jacob "bring" them to the island? Hence it wasn't just a big wave, it was a big wave conjured by some magic dude to dump the ship on the island.

[Kalbear]

Oh yeah, I wanted to get back to that.

So Jacob allows people to get to the island. He allowed the Black Rock to get there - and watched as everyone died either on the crash (only 5 officers left) or afterwards.

He allowed the Dharma folks to come in. No idea on how they arrived.

He allowed the 815 flight to crash. How many people died because of that specific action?

He allowed the Ajira flight to crash too. Again, how many people died?

I know that he's big on free will, but how many of those passengers would have wanted to die on their flight? Isn't he taking free will from many, many people in a very real way?

[ztemhead]

yeah, I've been thinking about "good" and "evil" in regards to the Powers, and I think the only way to judge it is by their actions. The part that kills me is when the Losties see a person or Power do something really horrible, and then choose to trust that person later. Ben killed Jacob. Ben also killed Locke. Why would you ever trust Ben? Or to be more current, Smokey kills everyone at the temple, and admits to it. Why would you ever trust Smokey or do anything he says without suspecting an ulterior motive? It drives me batshit that in some episodes they behave like normal people, and in others they behave with the credulity of an eight year old who decides it's okay to get in a van with a strange man.

[Caligula_K]

Otherwise the episode was ok. The members of the Black rock were somewhat shortlived and i'm still confused how the ship could be the one that we saw at the end of season 5 (because it was daylight then and it was nightime). I have to admit i much preferred 19th century Jacob as he seemed to be far more straight forward - 21st century Jacob has obviously watched too many overly enigmatic TV shows. I hope this wasn't just lousy characterization and there's some story to it though as it also struck me as odd how Jacob was proclaiming that he has to let people choose their own path - the complete opposite to what he does now. Maybe MiB became more of a handful requiring dirtier tactics.

Werthead: Snap on the "I am in Supernatural".

I think that the way they played Jacob's character this episode was completely intentional- he's pissed off because the war between himself and the MiB has really started, and he's not as used to interacting with the people he brought to the island, since at that point he doesn't get involved. I hope we get the story of how the Others get started up, but right now I'm guessing that one of the points of this episode is to show how Jacob gets hooked on bureaucracy. You start with one intermediary and before you know it you have hundreds of secretive people hanging around.

Still, Jacob hasn't changed that much, although he is definitely gentler than he used to be. He'll tell Jack and Hurley to go to the lighthouse, but he won't tell Jack what he has to do- he still believes that Jack has to come to the decision himself, or else it's all meaningless.

As for answers in general: Look, is the explanation for how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the jungle as epic as I wanted it to be? No. But I do accept that some answers are going to be more mundane than others, and I can't expect all of them to be super awesome fantastic. It's just unrealistic. As long as enough of the answers are cool, I'm fine with this. For example, regarding the statue: The fact that the four toed foot ended up being an Egyptian statue was an answer that made complete sense and was a very cool way to approach the question. So, a cool answer makes up for a not so cool one, and I'd rather have the answer than them not address the question at all.

[Kalbear]

A completely random thought: I'm still baffled that we'll not have an answer to the 108 minute button pushing experiment crap. However, do you think it's reasonable that in order to stop the world from exploding, a nuclear device was detonated similar to how Jughead worked? I mean...we see the failsafe, and we see an implosion, and everyone escapes save Desmond - but the other behavior is very similar, isn't it?

In this case Desmond becomes the guy unstuck in time (which he apparently was not prior to this) and only he does. I wonder...did the wheel have any effect on him?

[unJon]

Something else that annoys: remember the end of S5, when Jacob looks at Ben and Locke and says to Locke that he 'found his loophole'? And that's a reference to the conversation between Jacob and Titus, and how he'll find a loophole to kill Jacob? Well...that conversation only makes sense if Titus hadn't tried to do this before. Instead, it turns out Titus tried to do it almost immediately after the conversation.

I've been thinking about this. I can only really make sense of this if the beginning of the S5 finale takes place after this episode. Jacob was surprised that MIB was trying to kill him this episode. In S5 finale, Jacob knows how much MIB wants to kill him. Which would mean that the ship in the S5 finale is not the Black Rock. But really, how much time could pass between 1867 and the year that a ship that looks like the S5 finale ship is still sailing the 7 seas? :dunno:

So my stretch explanation is that after Richard, MIB tries many many times to kill Jacob. They all end in failure. MIB and Jacob realize that the only way to do it is if MIB finds a "loophole" whatever that means. And they discuss that in S5 finale. One last point I didn't see mentioned. Jacob tells Richard that only people he invites in can come into the statue foot. Maybe one of the "rules" is that once you are invited into the statue, Jacob can't attack you, etc.? Could explain why Jacob can whup on Richard on the beach but not Ben in the statue . . .

[Caligula_K]

Nah, DamCar in the latest podcast confirm that the ship in season 5 is the Black Rock. I wish they just hadn't brought in this whole loophole idea, because right now, the loophole seems to be "get someone else to kill Jacob since I can't do it." Which isn't much of a loophole.

[Kalbear]

I think I have a vaguely spoilery answer for you, unjon.

MiB can't attack candidates. It would stand to reason that Jacob couldn't either. Richard wasn't ever a candidate; he was just some guy who was trying to find candidates. Ben, however, certainly was.

It could be the loophole was that MiB found a candidate who would be willing to kill Jacob.

But mostly, I think it's just sloppy writing, and they essentially forgot all about the s5 finale (or that aspect of it) in favor of this tale.

[unJon]

I think I have a vaguely spoilery answer for you, unjon.

MiB can't attack candidates. It would stand to reason that Jacob couldn't either. Richard wasn't ever a candidate; he was just some guy who was trying to find candidates. Ben, however, certainly was.

It could be the loophole was that MiB found a candidate who would be willing to kill Jacob.

But mostly, I think it's just sloppy writing, and they essentially forgot all about the s5 finale (or that aspect of it) in favor of this tale.

Yup, makes more sense.

[Caligula_K]

The title of the series finale has been released:

The End.

Huh. Wasn't expecting that. Cutesy, but I don't like it.

[Werthead]

Neither of them have the Black Rock a mile inland from the statue.

Maybe because this information was not known to the cartography camp until this episode? And now they know this, they can take this into account?

Production assistant and sometimes writer Gregg Nations said way back in Season 2 they had a map of the Island and used it to plot out journey times and locations. He may have been lying, but seemed pretty certain of the point.