Mace Cooterian Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 The problem with this story as always is not just that we don't know the name of the Last Hero but we don't know what he did and why.Pardon my brief attempt at levity.....Maybe all that the Last Hero did was making contact with the CoTF and ask for their help. Nothing more than that. I sort of see this conversation going down as:LH: Damn, you guys are hard to find. With the approach of the Andals we FM are getting the crap kicked out of us. We need your help?CoTF: Sure, we will help but what will you do in return?LH: I don’t know; what did you have in mind?CoTF: You stay North of the wall at a place called Craster’s Keep. There you will leave a life of little means, sire kids and sacrifice them to the White Lot. Those bastards will not leave us alone. I wish those Starks would figure out how to keep their dead in the ground.LH: Okay. For how long?CoTF: Until you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Just to throw out another of my random thoughts...We have the Nights Watch and an oath which not inconsistently appears to speak of watching for the dawn etc. But as we also know not everything is always as it seems in GRRM's world and we have mysteries if not contradictions as yet unresolved.It occurs to me that there is or rather was another and arguably more famous Night Watch - a painting by Rembrandt for long years entitled thus because it was dark and mysterious with soldiers depicted moving in the gloom.In fact on cleaning it turned out to be nothing of the sort, but a group portrait of the burger militia company of Captain Banning Coq, originally painted striking suitably martial poses in broad daylight. Yet over the centuries as the varnish aged and the painting acquired a patina of candle smoke and other dirt, it darkened so that its original identity became lost and it became instead known as the Night Watch...Has something similar happened on the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Just to throw out another of my random thoughts...We have the Nights Watch and an oath which not inconsistently appears to speak of watching for the dawn etc. But as we also know not everything is always as it seems in GRRM's world and we have mysteries if not contradictions as yet unresolved.It occurs to me that there is or rather was another and arguably more famous Night Watch - a painting by Rembrandt for long years entitled thus because it was dark and mysterious with soldiers depicted moving in the gloom.In fact on cleaning it turned out to be nothing of the sort, but a group portrait of the burger militia company of Captain Banning Coq, originally painted striking suitably martial poses in broad daylight. Yet over the centuries as the varnish aged and the painting acquired a patina of candle smoke and other dirt, it darkened so that its original identity became lost and it became instead known as the Night Watch...Has something similar happened on the Wall?Random thought of mine:We have briefly touched the 13th Warrior when discussing the number 13 (NK being the 13th LC, LH having 12 companions, ...). Now in the 13th warrior the norsemen pick the foreigner to join them for good luck, IIRC. Maybe that was the part of the LH as well? The CotF went to fight the Others and took him along for good luck.Another strange thing: in their song about the battle for the dawn the Night Watch rides out to defeat the Others. That seems wrong to me. After the Long Night, one would assume they had eaten their horses and/or there was too much snow/cold to ride out. That reminds me of paintings that depict Jesus but the people are dressed as in medieval Europe. Bottom line: the Night Watch that defeated the Others was a different one than the one we see now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 I have to agree up to a point in that I don't think the Battle for the Dawn in the song relates to the Long Night, but to a later event, which is why in the past we've been inclined to tie it in with the Nights King story. The shift between the armies of men having lost everything, kings frozen in their castles and white walkers leading armies of the undead - or alternatively hunting through the woods - seems too radical a shift too quickly.The impression we're given is that in the dead lands, which we take to be the North its all over and the Sidhe are amusing themselves by hunting maidens through the woods and lying with Wildling women to make terrible half human children. Just for variety one day they're hunting the last of the thirteen heroes through the woods...Suddenly we have the Nights Watch riding into a big battle which they win against the Others. We've got a massive hole in the story here and I'm sure that the two stories, that of the Last Hero and the Battle for the Dawn are actually separated by hundreds of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 On the other side, why would we believe that the children sat down with humans and chit chatted all the heroics of the Last Hero? Not like they are super communicative now, and I personally doubt they ever were. Moreover, considering the extinction that the children underwent at the hands of the invading First Men, why would they suddenly share epos with them? Especially if we assume that the children are the Other race that used to oppose humanity and was forced into a Pact giving up control over the land.K... so we know that at some point in their history, the First Men started to send gifted individuals off to be greenseers... what if the reason we know of the Last Hero but don't know is name is because a greenseer or two saw the events and dictated them to a free individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 This conversation has thinking a lot about sacrifices and pacts.One just have only to look at the olden myths or newer children stories,where powerful beings in return for a favor given asked for sons. Hell even in the bible you can find where the Levi priest were told to give up every first born son to the service of god.Is this world so different? With these pacts between men and elvish creatures- i use that term loosely- what price would you ask or pay if you wanted to stave off catastrophe.We have Craster giving sons,every generation of Stark seems to have a son at the wall,a greenseer being human and male from what i can see ( subterfuge of some kind i'm sure of it),sacrificing a king or Kings blood to Rhollor. Seriously being born a boy in this world is not good for your health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneToilet Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 "that is not dead which can eternal lie yet with strange aeons even death may die" Just thought I should add:"drain you of your sanity face The Thing That Should Not Be "Sorry couldn't resist. Maybe grrm is a Metallica fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theriveryeti Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Which gods did the First Men worship before the "Old Gods?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 We really don't know. Its never stated.However its worth noting that what Maester Luwin actually said was that they started worshipping the "secret gods of the woods", taken as being synonymous with the weirwoods. We're also told this business of the greenseers going into the trees when they die and in effect becoming the godhood. I don't have a problem with this in as far as its straightforward and consistent, but...For starters there are also the Storm Gods and the Drowned God who are not comprised within this before we start looking outwards to the Essos-based religions, and then there's Craster and his emphasis on being a godly man and keeping right with the gods - gods who clearly are not those of the Children, but may well, ultimately be the Storm Gods or connected with the Storm Gods.Its just speculation here, but its possible that Craster is still worshipping the old gods of the First Men rather than the tree huggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theriveryeti Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Yes, it's always been interesting that he worships "crueler gods" than the Seven or Jon's Old Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 Returning to the matter of the Last Hero having no name, its worth noting that the Singers/Children don't use names much. Leaf initially just says she has a name when she needs one and it seems to take some time to learn the names of a few of the others. Similarly Bryn Blackwood, or Bloodraven if you prefer, is never referred to by name - only as the Greenseer, and Coldhands is only referred to by Leaf as "him".Taking this into account its perhaps not surprising that the Children should not have passed back to name of the Last Hero since they don't value names as we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Touching back on a post regarding still knowing the names of people 5000 years ago I wanted to illustrate a point by using the books of the Bible as an example. The Jesus in the New Testament is a sun god and the stories about him and his 12 disciples have origins in the stars, constellations and astrology. Just because these stories were written down thousands of years ago doesn't mean these were actual people in history. I think GRRM has attempted to recreate this same type of mythos in Westeros. I don't believe the characters from the Age of Heroes were intended to be actual historical figures. I would akin those stories to be no different than the Greek or Roman gods who are probably the same "Age of Heroes" mentioned in the books of the Bible, which were also terrible half human children.I don't expect the White Walkers to be anything more than the opposite force of what we've already witnessed on the "Fire" side. Either they are Ice priests or priestesses much like Melisandre, Moqorro or Benero, or they are white shadows much like the shadowbabies that Melisandre created. I think its a mistake to build them up into something more, because that would make the Ice side more powerful than the Fire side. Likewise, Coldhands is the flip side of Beric Dondarrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuragin Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Just a point on the lack of names with COTF, many cultures have a long history of an individual's power being held in their name, perhaps the reason they avoid wherever possible using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Just thought I should add:"drain you of your sanityface The Thing That Should Not Be "Sorry couldn't resist. Maybe grrm is a Metallica fan.Hahah! No, don't apologize, that was awesome! :cheers: Here's another pop culture shout out to Lovecraft and Cthulhu for ya./Cthulhu worshipETA: Well, the Children not having names may come down to them not dealing with egos or "the cult of personality" .... They're above it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Hahah! No, don't apologize, that was awesome! :cheers: Here's another pop culture shout out to Lovecraft and Cthulhu for ya./Cthulhu worshipETA: Well, the Children not having names may come down to them not dealing with egos or "the cult of personality" .... They're above it?That Snoopy looks like he's part kracken-part dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 That Snoopy looks like he's part kracken-part dragon.Yeah, he's depicted as Cthulhu and he has wings :wideeyed:ETA: Sorry for the Cthulhu hijack, heretics, I'm done now... I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 Done perhaps, but I think its a useful illustration of GRRM's assurance that we won't get personal interventions by deities.As I said above I can very easily associate the Drowned God with Cthulhu and while I'm comfortable with the Morrigan occasionally appearing in different guises - mother, maiden, crone or crow - to guide and manipulate things, a personal appearance by something looking remotely like Cthulhu would blow the credibility of this story right out of the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 I don't expect the White Walkers to be anything more than the opposite force of what we've already witnessed on the "Fire" side. Either they are Ice priests or priestesses much like Melisandre, Moqorro or Benero, or they are white shadows much like the shadowbabies that Melisandre created. I think its a mistake to build them up into something more, because that would make the Ice side more powerful than the Fire side. Likewise, Coldhands is the flip side of Beric Dondarrion.While there are some obvious similarities the white shadows do appear to be rather more substantial than the black ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Done perhaps, but I think its a useful illustration of GRRM's assurance that we won't get personal interventions by deities.As I said above I can very easily associate the Drowned God with Cthulhu and while I'm comfortable with the Morrigan occasionally appearing in different guises - mother, maiden, crone or crow - to guide and manipulate things, a personal appearance by something looking remotely like Cthulhu would blow the credibility of this story right out of the water.I completely agree, and as I said, I was actually aiming to compare/find parallels between the Old Ones from the story in general and the Others (we hardly know anything about them, just like it is with the Others...), and mentioned Cthulhu in passing as he is the integral part of the story.... Naturally, his awesomeness prevailed, and took over thread :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 While there are some obvious similarities the white shadows do appear to be rather more substantial than the black onesRenly found the black shadow to be rather substantial.BTW, I do think that Patchface's diddy about the "shadows coming to stay" probably is a reference to the WW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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