[TWoW SPOILERS] March chapter mercy part ii

[Newstar]

Ser Wun Wun, I've heard the GRRM no POV rapes thing bandied about many times, but for the life of me I can't find a source quote. I even asked in the small questions thread and came up empty. It does seem to be true thus far, although Drogo's rough, painful sex with Dany in the early days of their marriage looked like rape, and Cersei describes Robert raping her in flashbacks.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, that would be a pretty long list wouldn't it? It would be easier to ask what female characters weren't raped or threatened with it. The only main characters I can think of who weren't raped or threatened with it are (off the top of my head) Catelyn, Arianne and Asha. The there are the roving armed bands whose rape as a matter of business: the Ironborn, Bloody Mummers, Dothraki, etc. In Cersei's words: "We'll be in for a little bit of rape" during the attack on King's Landing. Entire populations under threat. So, yeah, the women of ASOIAF are constantly in danger of getting raped. No, they are not always saved from it. Some of them do get raped, like Lollys Stokeworth, gang-raped at King's Landing, whose bastard son is described as "he of a hundred fathers" in the appendix.

A rape joke! Hurr hurr hurr :snort: hurr.

Maybe I am wrong. But I'd rather be wrong on this side of the discussion than the other.

Arya was certainly in danger had she been found out, but there was never an instance of "near rape" for her. Sansa had a near miss on her wedding night to Tyrion, as did Brienne when she was imprisoned by the Bloody mummers. Apart from that, we hear Cersei's account of marital rape, the beginning of Dany's marriage was certainly not pleasant.

As for weather the female population of Westeros constantly being under threat of rape, that is because of how war is tearing apart the country. It's even mentioned that with Lord Stark keeping order from Winterfell, a girl could walk the Kings road in nothing but her birthday suit (i.e. nothing) and nobody would accost her. The Wot5K has made a fragile law and order completely break down. A constant theme is that knights don't follow their knightly vows (see Gregor Clegane) for instance, but are comitting atrocities instead.

Basically, if you disapprove of the gruesomeness of ASOIAF, then a. you haven't been paying attention to anything since late AGOT and b. you disapprove of one of the main themes in the novel. Which is fine, but it makes for a very odd take on the whole thing. It's trying to force a square peg down a round hole, i.e. it's lamenting that ASOIAF is not what you wanted it to be, but something else, dealing with other themes and describing other things.

Regarding rape as a plot crutch, the way it's normally used is that raped women are excuses for the hero to go kick ass, or it's used as a crutch for female characters to develop since rape equals "having suffered pain" without any more development needed. Or it can be used to show damsels in distress constantly having to be rescued from near rape. None of these things are really prevalent in ASOIAF to the degree that they become plot crutches.

I do agree with you about the "joke" being made about Lollys Stokeworth and her son "he of the hundred fathers" as being pretty tasteless.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm in the Shae Camp. The story is called the bloody hand, its the story of Tyrion.

The fact that Tyrion never bedded Sansa was well known in King's Landing and was a great source of shame to Tywin and House Lannister. The whole point of the play is to shame House Lannister.

We also have to consider Shae's testimony at trial. She claimed Tyrion took her against her will. She also said, "he used to make me tell him how big he was." She wasn't talking about his feet... hence the giant fake cock as a prop. Thats why Tyrion is the "Giant of Lannister"

Add to that Arya mends "Lady Stork's" dress just like Shae was made "Lady Stark's" handmaid.

Arya also plays like a whore to lure Raff to his death, there is a parallel with Arya playing a version of a real life whore, excuse me "camp follower."

The problem is, the world doesn't give a fuck about Shae. She's a tiny footnote, one of several people who testified in Tyrion's trial. She's lowborn. She's, more or less, nobody. The only reason we think of her is because we lived in Tyrion's head for so long - a privilege Phario Forel was denied.

It isn't certain that the playwright even heard of Shae. And as for this and that tiny detail matching, or not, either girl: the play was written by a Braavosi dweller, who most likely hadn't even been there. He got the details, optimistically, second-hand, realistically third- or fourth-hand, basing his story on gossip and changing it to his literary taste.

[Veltigar]

People have been wondering for a while if the Kindly Man knows that Arya has been warging. In ADWD, he warned her that she "may have bad dreams for a time" due to bleed-through from the ugly little girl's memories. But then and here, we see Arya warging Nymeria in her sleep---she has wolf dreams, but no face-related dreams. It's possible that she's been having face-related dreams off-page, or that the Kindly Man was lying, or even that she just isn't having the dreams because not everyone does. But in context, the emphasis on Arya's wolf dreams could be a hint that a warg reacts differently to Faceless Man training than the Kindly Man anticipated.

Mercy does not sew. A Greyjoy reference? :)

The actress apparently playing Cersei likes a "little nip of wine" before each play. Hah!

Have we been told what "keyholders" are in Braavosi society? Clearly they're powerful people, but what sort of "keys" do these people have access to? Literal or metaphorical keys?

The Black Pearl is Bellegere Otherys. Is there a difference between Otherys and Otharys (a typo, or two different names)? Mercy sees "three scions of Otharys, each accompanied by a famous courtesan" in one box. Could be nothing, but I'd be curious if there was a connection there.

to .

Otharys is a city. Otherys is a last name.

I suspect that the keyholders are people with a key to the cities treasury, which of course means that they are important officials in the city.

[Waylin Stark]

She could have just been a nameless girl meant to highlight his depravity. Shae lived to testify at his trial, I'm not even sure how they would try to spin Sansa, if they were trying to be respectful towards the Westerosi envoy.

That as well. It's not like Tyrion was thought to be monogamous. She could have been an extra.

Though I doubt they would have cared what the envoy thought of Sansa.

[The Human Abstract]

I just don't think showing the POV rape is his style. He may start it and then end the chapter, but he won't detail it.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I want to know did anyone pay attention to the info dump that the lannister guards give us. TYWIN LANNISTER WAS IN LYS ON BEHALF OF KING AERYS SO THE QUESTION IS WHY?

Probably for the same reason Steffon Baratheon was sent there.

Other than whoring, it could have been to fetch Varys. Varys' talents were widely known and Aerys wanted him at court, so he presumably sent for him:

"I grew so respectable that a cousin of the Prince of Pentos let me wed his maiden daughter, whilst whispers of a certain eunuch’s talents crossed the narrow sea and reached the ears of a certain king. A very anxious king, who did not wholly trust his son, nor his wife, nor his Hand, a friend of his youth who had grown arrogant and overproud."

And that anxious king would send his Hand, whom he doesn't wholly trust, to bring him the most talented spymaster in the world? It doesn't sound right.

Probably finishing Steffon Baratheon's quest to find Rhaegar a princess. But just a guess.

Or beginning it. Sending Steffon to repeat the mission at which Tywin has failed sounds right up Aerys' alley.

He was in Lys during the time he was Aerys' Hand. It was never stated why he was there, or if it was Aerys who had send him.

Tywin Lannister, the Hand of the King and the guy with the most spotless reputation in the Realm, ditching his post for a leisurely sail to the world capital of whores? I seriously doubt it. It had to be an official mission by the King.

[HexMachina]

Did anyone else notice similarities between Arya's assertions throughout that she is Mercy, and Theon's "Reek, Reek, it rhymes with freak! You have to remember your name!" Seems to me she was trying hard to accept her new role as Mercy

[Veltigar]

How did he even pay her?

In the books, it is said, that

Harys Swyft comes from the richest region in Westeros, but he is only a knight, so how does he get so much money?

He's on an official mission, so he probably has some razzle-dazzle money to throw around and ingratiate himself with the Braavosi elite.

[Newstar]

I kind of like the idea of Play Sansa being some sort of demonic witch figure, what with the rumours as to Sansa's magical escape from the PW.

[Lord Martin]

The problem is, the world doesn't give a fuck about Shae. She's a tiny footnote, one of several people who testified in Tyrion's trial. She's lowborn. She's, more or less, nobody. The only reason we think of her is because we lived in Tyrion's head for so long - a privilege Phario Forel was denied.

It isn't certain that the playwright even heard of Shae. And as for this and that tiny detail matching, or not, either girl: the play was written by a Braavosi dweller, who most likely hadn't even been there. He got the details, optimistically, second-hand, realistically third- or fourth-hand, basing his story on gossip and changing it to his literary taste.

No, but people remember characters from infamous trials. Just ask Cato Cailin.

I'm not suggesting Mercy was billed as "Shae" in the playbill. But that Mercy's character is more inspired from Shae than Sansa. What we can deduce from the play is that its a farce on House Lannister. Its obviousy why a Forrel would wish to malign the Lannisters.

I would not be surprising for every member of the audience from Tyrion's trial to go out repeating stories about the Imp's beautiful whore who made her call him "Giant"

.... plus the cock thing....

[ARYa_Nym]

I saw this elsewhere:

One time, when Brea took to her bed with her moon blood, Cat had pushed her barrow to the Purple Harbor to sell crabs and prawns to oarsmen off the Sealord’s pleasure barge, covered stem to stern with laughing faces. Other days she followed the sweetwater river to the Moon Pool. She sold to swaggering bravos in striped satin, and to keyholders and justiciars in drab coats of brown and grey. But she always returned to the Ragman’s Harbor. (AFFC)

They seem to be important people. It's grouped with justiciars. Maybe it has something to do with the Iron Bank. We still haven't seen them or the Sealord's Palace yet.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

He's going to kill her, GRRM. I can't tell you much that sucks for me, and how little left of this alleged 'sweet' in the bittersweet ending would be left then. But, I will refrain from going on a rant about the good guys always losing, etc. etc.

I do think there's a chance she won't die. Just as many child soldiers in are re-integrated into society after war, it could happen for Arya. In RL, I don't think a child soldier is left with the shot at finding lots of family members to reconnect with and find a way back into society, either. I know I'm probably being too hopeful, but I haven't written her off as doomed, not yet, anyway.

[Waylin Stark]

Anyways, I don't think she would only kill bad people. She would kill innocents if she had enough motive and felt that she could get away with it but it's true that she mainly goes after bad people. I like that it's not only bad people. That's too comic book for me.

But what motive would she have to kill "good" people?

She's more hell bent on extracting revenge. She would truly have no reason to kill a good person, except maybe if they knew something about her that could get her in trouble.

[butterbumps!]

Daena finding Harys unappetizing because of his age reminds me of Sansa wondering what Jeyne could possibly see in Beric as he was so old, so Arya is playing Jeyne in the exchange.

There's also the symmetry of Jeyne playing Arya as Arya is playing Jeyne.

Yea, that's exactly what I was thinking of in terms of the "liking older men" thing. I don't think Mercy is a Sansa foil. I think there's a double foil going on with Jeyne playing Arya and Arya playing Jeyne. Especially given the trauma it seems Mercy's undergone. There's a literary elegance to this, though, I'm unsure if there's further extrapolations to be made.

That's an interesting point Bumps. Arya is playing "someone" who gets raped in King's Landing. And Jeyne Poole, who is pretending to be Arya was likely raped there and in Winterfell.

I agree the whole scene is intended to evoke memories of Sansa's time in KL, just not that Arya is playing the Sansa figure. It is sad that Arya does not reflect at all on the fact that the play depicts the times Sansa was alone in KL.

As to your point about Lady Stork and "little bird." IIRC, the last thing Sandor ever called Sansa was "little bird." The last thing he discussed with Arya was "Mercy." Just another nice but of fun from the master, GRRM.

OMG! Phario Forel = the Gravedigger! (joke jokes)

But seriously, that's a good connection.

And yes, I'm wondering if there's significance to how both Sansa and Arya have been channelling proxies, but haven't yet walked in each other's shoes. Arya's detachment was part of why I'm so interesting in figuring out whether Lady Stork is a role. If it's the role, does Arya's referring to the actress as "Lady Stork" imply some sort of longing for her sister, like, is she choosing to apply the Sansa signifier as some sort of reification of her family or something?

[jarl the climber]

I kind of like the idea of Play Sansa being some sort of demonic witch figure, what with the rumours as to Sansa's magical escape from the PW.

From the general tenor of the play, at least what we saw, it seem like portraying her as a co-conspirator would make sense.

That as well. It's not like Tyrion was thought to be monogamous. She could have been an extra.

Though I doubt they would have cared what the envoy thought of Sansa.

I do think this play had a political purpose, it was meant to flatter the envoy, so they would not have wanted to show Sansa in a favorable light. At least that is my take.

[Lord Martin]

I got the same impression as you. I'm surprised that isn't a hotter topic on these threads.

Count me in as well:

"A real blade, not a fruit knife like the one on her hip, but it did not belong to Mercy, no more than her other treasures did. The fruit knife belonged to Mercy. She was made for eating fruit, for smiling and joking, for working hard and doing as she was told."

and

"Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade"

The "doing what she was told" bit suggests its Needle. Arya was told to get rid of it, but she didn't do as she was told. Mercy does, but Arya doesn't.

[Veltigar]

I do think there's a chance she won't die. Just as many child soldiers in are re-integrated into society after war, it could happen for Arya. In RL, I don't think a child soldier is left with the shot at finding lots of family members to reconnect with and find a way back into society, either. I know I'm probably being too hopeful, but I haven't written her off as doomed, not yet, anyway.

I think there is a big chance that they'll discover a frozen corpse with Arya's face and Needle alongside it. But in fact Arya isn't dead, she just took of into the sunset.

Or she's superdeath at the end of the books ;)

[HexMachina]

Count me in as well:

"A real blade, not a fruit knife like the one on her hip, but it did not belong to Mercy, no more than her other treasures did. The fruit knife belonged to Mercy. She was made for eating fruit, for smiling and joking, for working hard and doing as she was told."

and

"Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade"

The "doing what she was told" bit suggests its Needle. Arya was told to get rid of it, but she didn't do as she was told. Mercy does, but Arya doesn't.

I immediately thought it was Needle too

[ARYa_Nym]

But what motive would she have to kill "good" people?

She's more hell bent on extracting revenge. She would truly have no reason to kill a good person, except maybe if they knew something about her that could get her in trouble.

Well that would be one motive.

Example:

In ACoK Gendry figures out that she isn't a boy. She contemplates killing him but then decides that she wouldn't be able to get away with it.

She had motive to kill the Bolton guard. There's no evidence he was doing anything other than his job. But she needed to escape ASAP so he had to go.

It's more of a necessity/in her interest thing and not her doing it because she simply wants to like the people on her list.