I don't get Sansa's dislike for Tyrion

[the trees have eyes]

Sansa mistrusts Tyrion because he's a Lannister. She acknowledges that he's better than the other Lannisters, but he's still a Lannister and her family is at war with the Lannisters, making him her enemy. She worries that he is being nice to her to draw her out and get her to say something treasonous that she can then be punished for, and decides that opening up to him would be too risky. Given what she knows and doesn't know about Tyrion and the Lannisters generally, it's a sound and prudent choice. I think she and Tyrion could have become a happy couple if she'd opened up to him, so it saddens me, but I don't blame her in the slightest.

I don't get the bolded part. What Sansa desperately wants is to survive the Lannisters and to escape King's Landing, to get as far away from them all as possible. What Sansa wants in spades is to "come to the godswood if you want to go home", not to resign herself to the situation and make the best of it.

She absolutely rejects the marriage in her heart. She has a certain gratitude for Tyrion's decency in saving her from the worst of Joffrey's malice and for not forcing himself on her but this makes him a kinder jailor than the rest, not an ally. He may be the littlest lion but his family destroyed hers and what she is resolved on is flight at the earliest opportunity, not finding happiness with him.

I think Tyrion is basically decent towards her but I don't see why this should make Sansa change her outlook and open up to him: she learned the folly of that naivety from Cersei. Escape means secrecy. Secrecy means keeping as remote from the enemy as possible and Tyrion is to be kept at arm's length.

[Gertrude]

Actually, the exchange of hostages is independent from the demand to have Robb kneel.

Gah - going from memory and don't have the books in front of me. I still don't see Cat's release of Jaime to be a binding agreement.

I think Gertrude up there is just musing about how Sansa could shape her own rules in the future. (which i agree is kind of exciting. Will she fight LF outright like she did the Lannisters? Or will she fight him in another, Sansa-created way?)

Yes. I think that in order for Sansa to come into her true power, she has to realize that you can't play by anyone's rules but your own.

I wasn't trying to say that Sansa isn't fighting back in her way, or that she does what is 'expected' of her because it is a priori good. Perhaps the wedding night was not a great illustration of that point, but in general - Sansa survives by conforming to expectations. It's her shield and she can hide her horror and loathing behind it.

The point I was trying to make is that her brain still works in these patterns. It doesn't mean she has to like it or even believe it is right - her subconscious has these things on cruise control and IMO she will have to break that habit to move ahead. I still think that she will still use things like courtesy and expectations to her advantage, but knowingly and with purpose rather than being on auto-pilot.

I think we're pretty much on the same page, perhaps I am not getting my thoughts across clearly.

[E-Ro]

I think the hate is mostly to do with the fact that she shares her ableist mother's prejudice against dwarves. Undoubtedly, Sansa will also kidnap him and start a war. Unless she's too busy thinking up new ways to torment her bastard brother she also hates.

Well your close to the mark, but not fully correct. Sansa and cat hate tyrion because they are extremely offended by bulbous purple cocks. Hence the kidnapping and war starting. This fact has unfortunate implications for jons dick, since both of these characters also hate jon.

[CaptainTheo]

Usually my sympathies lie with Sansa. I can excuse her for initially refusing to kneel, given the whole trauma of suddenly finding out with no warning that she had to marry him, especially as until then she thought she'd be going to Highgarden and marrying Willas instead. I can also excuse her for not wanting anything to do with him (ever?) on their wedding night because she is so young and it is the last thing that she would want; it would (of course) be rape.

I just wish she could be warmer towards him in their conversations, like at Joffrey's wedding; she's always so cold and formal. She seems to be better disposed towards other characters who are less friendly to her than Tyrion, such as the Hound (who's 3-4 years older than Tyrion, and likewise ugly), Littlefinger (who is older still and has designs on her) and Cersei (who is also a Lannister). Tyrion has always treated her with kindness and respect, stopped Joffrey's beatings of her, looked out for her during the riot, stopped the bedding ceremony and promised to not consummate the marriage unless she wanted it. Yet she always responds with a wall of icy courtesy. And Tyrion's been discriminated against his whole life; I sympathise with him in this instance and agree with the OP about that at least.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Well your close to the mark, but not fully correct. Sansa and cat hate tyrion because they are extremely offended by bulbous purple cocks. Hence the kidnapping and war starting. This fact has unfortunate implications for jons dick, since both of these characters also hate jon.

Poor Jon...and its foreshadowed he might end up with a frozen one. D:

You know, i was disappointed that Sansa didnt manipulate Tyrion into spilling a lot of beans and using his insecurities against him....shrouded in politeness. But she wasnt ready for that at the time.

[Gertrude]

I sympathize with both of them and see each of their points of view, which is the tragedy. I agree that they could, given time, have made it work in a different situation, but when the situation is Stark/Lannister after the Red Wedding - nope.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Usually my sympathies lie with Sansa. I can excuse her for initially refusing to kneel, given the whole trauma of suddenly finding out with no warning that she had to marry him, especially as until then she thought she'd be going to Highgarden and marrying Willas instead. I can also excuse her for not wanting anything to do with him (ever?) on their wedding night because she is so young and it is the last thing that she would want; it would (of course) be rape.

I just wish she could be warmer towards him in their conversations, like at Joffrey's wedding; she's always so cold and formal. She seems to be better disposed towards other characters who are less friendly to her than Tyrion, such as the Hound (who's 3-4 years older than Tyrion, and likewise ugly), Littlefinger (who is older still and has designs on her) and Cersei (who is also a Lannister). Tyrion has always treated her with kindness and respect, stopped Joffrey's beatings of her, looked out for her during the riot, stopped the bedding ceremony and promised to not consummate the marriage unless she wanted it. Yet she always responds with a wall of icy courtesy. And Tyrion's been discriminated against his whole life; I sympathise with him in this instance and agree with the OP about that at least.

The girl is grieving as Tyrion himself sees and it is very understandable.

There is a major difference between the Hound and Tyrion. For one he never forces her to marry him and despite his rudeness he also protects her.

She is as equally polite and cold to Cersei.

Sandor looked out for her in the Riot and unlike Tyrion he did it for a true selfless reason (granted can't blame Tyrion to think about his brother instead of Sansa)

That wall of icy courtesy was her way to not crumble into pieces.

Sansa shouldn't be grateful to Tyrion because he has basic human decency.

[E-Ro]

Well your close to the mark, but not fully correct. Sansa and cat hate tyrion because they are extremely offended by bulbous purple cocks. Hence the kidnapping and war starting. This fact has unfortunate implications for jons dick, since both of these characters also hate jon.

does no one understand the implications of what im saying here? People, jons dick is similar to tyrions, THATS WHY THEY WERE SUCH GOOD FREINDS WHEN THEY MET!

I mean really, what did you people think this scene was all about?

One by one the company drifted off to their shelters and to sleep, all but Jon Snow, who had drawn the nights first watch. Tyrion was the last to retire, as always. As he stepped into the shelter his men had built for him, he paused and looked back at jon snow. The boy stood near the fire, his face still and hard, looking deep into the flames. Tyrion lannister smiled sadly and went to bed.

The two of them were obviously discussing the disability they have when everyone went to bed and they were the last two up. Thats why tyrion smiled sadly, he was thinking about it.

[Annara Snow]

I sympathize with both of them and see each of their points of view, which is the tragedy. I agree that they could, given time, have made it work in a different situation, but when the situation is Stark/Lannister after the Red Wedding - nope.

Made what work? They could perhaps be allies or even friends in a different situation - I was hoping they could be some kind of friends, since I liked them both, and I still hope they will be civil to each other if they ever meet again. But are you talking about marriage? What about that marriage looks like something that could "work" as a real marriage under any circumstances, and why would they, especially Sansa, even want to "make it work"? Even if we take away the entire Stark/Lannister situation and forced marriage, for starters, Sansa feels zero physical, sexual or romantic attraction to him, in fact she finds him sexually repulsive, so why would she agree to have sex with him? Secondly, she wants someone who loves her for herself and doesn't want her because of her claim, and that's certainly not Tyrion, so again, why would she settle for a marriage like that? It seems like a "well, she could just abandon of dreams and desires and lie back and take it, since the world is shitty like that", and why would someone want that for her? It's just sad. (I even thought it was sad when she was ready to settle for Willas, and that was a situation where she was at least able to find some hope that she'll eventually get some love in that marriage.) And on his part, Tyrion's deepest desire is also to be loved, and to have a woman who has sex with him out of real desire, so that wouldn't work for him, either.

The only way Sansa and Tyrion can "make it work" as some sort of allies or friends is if they aren't married.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

She doesn't hate him she's just physically repulsed by him.

[E-Ro]

does no one understand the implications of what im saying here? People, jons dick is similar to tyrions, THATS WHY THEY WERE SUCH GOOD FREINDS WHEN THEY MET!

I mean really, what did you people think this scene was all about?

The two of them were obviously discussing the disability they have when everyone went to bed and they were the last two up. Thats why tyrion smiled sadly, he was thinking about it.

This is also obviously why jon invents the lords kiss, he is just so embarrassed and ashamed of his bulbous condition.

guys This thread has such a self-evident answer that I really think we should all be discussing penis bulbousity

[Mad Monkey]

Gah - going from memory and don't have the books in front of me. I still don't see Cat's release of Jaime to be a binding agreement.

When Cleos Frey returned from Riverrun, Catelyn was very careful to inquire about the fact that Tyrion vowed to exchange Sansa for Jaime in open court and swore it upon the Iron Throne itself. The way that passage is worded makes me think that these specific features of Tyrion's promise had some kind of intrinsic meaning in Westerosi culture, similar in format (if not severity) as guest right. Later on, Catelyn is very angry when she learns that Edmure has been telling people that Jaime "escaped" (since part of Tyrion's promise was that he woudl release Sansa if Jaime were released, not if Jaime escaped on his own).

I honestly think that if Tyrion had been the Hand when Jaime arrived in KL he would have released Sansa. I don't want to make too many excuses for Tyrion here but I think that his promise was made in good faith at the time.

As far as Sansa's relationship to Tyrion goes, she doesn't hate him but as many people have pointed out she is cool to him because of the circumstances that have been thrust upon her. Especially in this culture, being married to someone whose family wiped out your own is pretty much unconscionable -- even though we readers know that Tyrion was as surprised by the RW as Sansa was, it's not realistic for Sansa to take such a clear-eyed view. Perhaps, theoretically, over many years Sansa may see something in Tyrion that distinguishes him from Tywin's atrocities against her, but that's not something that would have occurred within the timeframe that they were actually together.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

This is also obviously why jon invents the lords kiss, he is just so embarrassed and ashamed of his bulbous condition.

guys This thread has such a self-evident answer that I really think we should all be discussing penis bulbousity

Bro what is with you today? You are talking about little fingers.. even your signature is about little finger :lmao:

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

I just wish she could be warmer towards him in their conversations, like at Joffrey's wedding; she's always so cold and formal. She seems to be better disposed towards other characters who are less friendly to her than Tyrion, such as the Hound (who's 3-4 years older than Tyrion, and likewise ugly), Littlefinger (who is older still and has designs on her) and Cersei (who is also a Lannister). Tyrion has always treated her with kindness and respect, stopped Joffrey's beatings of her, looked out for her during the riot, stopped the bedding ceremony and promised to not consummate the marriage unless she wanted it. Yet she always responds with a wall of icy courtesy. And Tyrion's been discriminated against his whole life; I sympathise with him in this instance and agree with the OP about that at least.

I thought so too at first, but then I realized that would have been worse- dishonest, a lot more like a betrayal- because she knew she was leaving him so soon. How would he feel if she'd been all "Yes, I'd LOVE to go to Casterly Rock with you, you're the best hubby evah!" and then he needed her to testify at his trial and she was gone?

[Gertrude]

Made what work? They could perhaps be allies or even friends in a different situation - I was hoping they could be some kind of friends, since I liked them both, and I still hope they will be civil to each other if they ever meet again. But are you talking about marriage?

Well, in this setting, how often are marriages - especially ones made by powerful houses - made for the purpose of love and anything we in the modern world think of when we say marriage. It wouldn't have been either of their first choice, but if they could have become friends, then they could have made their Westerosi marriage work. An ideal marriage involves a lot of things, but IMO even today, friendship is the base for the best of them and the forging of a partnership. I could see Tyrion and Sansa forming such a successful partnership given the right circumstances. Of course, being at war with your in-laws and having them murder your family is not such a circumstance.

[Dany Girl]

This thread makes me sad. Sad for Sansa and sad fir humanity that people seem to think she owed him even the basic kindnesses. He's her captor, he's taken part in the utter distruction of her family. To think she should lie back and think of WF as some duty, to think she should have been nice or friendly twords him.... that makes me sad on a human level.

[E-Ro]

Bro what is with you today? You are talking about little fingers.. even your signature is about little finger :lmao:

lol, I just really think im on to something here. People need to embrace this.

This thread makes me sad. Sad for Sansa and sad fir humanity that people seem to think she owed him even the basic kindnesses. He's her captor, he's taken part in the utter distruction of her family. To think she should lie back and think of WF as some duty, to think she should have been nice or friendly twords him.... that makes me sad on a human level.

wow brah, my posts in here aren't helping to restore some happiness to you? That really hurts. Especially since I put so much thought into this theory.

[Mad Monkey]

Well, in this setting, how often are marriages - especially ones made by powerful houses - made for the purpose of love and anything we in the modern world think of when we say marriage. It wouldn't have been either of their first choice, but if they could have become friends, then they could have made their Westerosi marriage work. An ideal marriage involves a lot of things, but IMO even today, friendship is the base for the best of them and the forging of a partnership. I could see Tyrion and Sansa forming such a successful partnership given the right circumstances. Of course, being at war with your in-laws and having them murder your family is not such a circumstance.

I agree. In this setting, marriages are made for the political advantage of both families. Your dad and my dad get together and decide that our families would benefit by being united. It's not about love, sure, but there is some element that both 'sides' should get something out of it. The Tyrion/Sansa marriage was part of a plan to steal Sansa's birthright, a plan that necessarily involved the deaths of her entire family. This is not a typical Westerosi marriage; it's not something that anyone in Westeros would have condoned for their daughter... it was basically a travesty by both our standards and theirs.

Besides, even in Westeros there is some respect given to the woman's choice. Arianne and Brienne both rejected multiple suitors without raising too many eyebrows. When Tywin and Hoster wanted to arrange a marriage between Jaime and Lysa, they didn't just lay down the law, they sent feelers out and had Jaime and Lysa meet each other to see if they could get along first. Ultimately the decision is up to the father but the child's feelings are given some small amount of consideration.

[Mark Antony]

This thread makes me sad. Sad for Sansa and sad fir humanity that people seem to think she owed him even the basic kindnesses. He's her captor, he's takenI part in the utter distruction of her family. To think she should lie back and think of WF as some duty, to think she should have been nice or friendly twords him.... that makes me sad on a human level.

:grouphug:

[Dany Girl]

wow brah, my posts in here aren't helping to restore some happiness to you? That really hurts. Especially since I put so much thought into this theory.

Don't worry brah, your posts are the 1spot if happiness on this thread. And I agree, Jon probably has a scathe bulbous purple peninsula too. Poor Ygrette ... good thing he seems proficient at the Lord 's Kiss!