A Balanced Review of Show Stannis [Book Spoilers]

[aeu]

But he doesn't come off as a religious extremist. He comes off as a guy grudging going along with Mel because he doesn't know what else to do. And when talking to Davos, he sounds more angry that they disobeyed him rather than what it was they did.

This.

It's an honest question, because I really love the actor portraing him and I think that in his conversation with Davos he's merely repeating words and not believing in what he's doing. But it could be my love for Stannis seing things wrong.

And this.

Agreed. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Stannis looked like a caged rat surrounded by religious fanatics in that scene. He is clearly not enjoying burning those people. He clearly doesn't believe in Rhllor with all his heart. Every conversation he's ever had about the Red God eventually boiled down to "don't really believe in him, but Melisandre's magic works, so who am I to argue?"

Also, things they kept when adapting his character:

- his devotion to his wife and daughter

- his his respect for and friendship with Davos (mostly, at least)

- his absolute no-nonsense attitude and rigidity

So unless they screw up his big moment at the end of this season, I'm fine with show Stannis.

Why are people getting so worked up over that one word? Stannis has always paid lip service to the Red God It's a key part of his character. He sticks a symbol of rh'llor on his family crest, brandishes a magic sword, burns septs, and forces conversions and no one bats an eye lid. But he calls a man an Infidel and suddenly his whole character is ruined....

What am i missing here?

It seemed pretty obvious to me that Stannis was far less interested in the burnings than Mel and Selyse. He's got a look of distaste on his face practically the whole time and can't wait to turn away. Cut to him pushing away his roast meat in the very next scene. Dispite his flimsy justifications to Davos, he's clearly uncomfortable about the whole affair.

How anyone can look at the Stannis portrayed in this episode and see a religious zealot i've no idea. Everything about his behaviour, his expressions, his body language said the opposite. It's one word vs a mountain of subtext.

And these...

He could have easily called the man a traitor, instead they had him burn the man for being an infidel. How do you think all the American viewers saw that?

If they had half a brain, they saw what the posters quoted above saw. I talked to 3 non-readers today. None of them even remembered the word "infidel." What they got out of that scene was that Stannis was not into the burning at all. Two of them said that "The actor actually does a great job of showing that he doesn't really like this or buy into this."

Now, people think that Stannis wants power, so he is playing along. This is quite a departure from the book in terms of motivation (want has nothing to do with it, after all), but I'm afraid that shipped sailed a long time ago. TV Stannis is motivated by different things than the book Stannis. But he is not a religious zelot.

As someone who absolutely loves Stannnis (at least until ADWD), I think that this was an excellent episode for Stannis given how he was developed so far on the show.

[Stannis-the-Mannis]

D&D are talking about Stannis in the Inside video ... very negative ...

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones#/game-of-thrones/episodes/4/32-the-lion-and-the-rose/video/inside-the-episode.html/eNrjcmbO0CzLTEnNd8xLzKksyUx2zs8rSa0oUc-PSYEJBSSmp-ol5qYy5zMXsjGyMXIyMrJJJ5aW5BfkJFbalhSVpgIAXbkXOA==

Yea I was initially at peace with the whole thing because I thought Stannis was reluctant to go along with the burning -- "There are a great many things I hate but I suffer them all the same" during the dinner scene seems like it's directed right at Mel -- but D&D here imply he's totally on board with religious purging if it gets him to the Iron Throne. Even readers who don't like Stannis can see that he's uncomfortable with the Lord of Light.

Here's a question tho': can someone tell me why they rushed his decision to burn Gendry? Remember, the deal in the show & books was 3 leeches for 3 kings. Book Stannis waited until the last king fell before deciding Edric Storm needed to die; Show Stannis couldn't wait to kill Gendry after just Robb Stark died. We're on ep3, Joffrey is dead, and Stannis hasn't advanced anywhere in his story. You could have easily delayed the decision to go north until Joffrey/Balon died. Stannis could be making the decision to burn Gendry this week and it would've made no difference to the showrunner's plans, really

[jons nissa]

Most agree that he's at least more dynamic and interesting than he's being portrayed on the television show. if nothing else Stannis has way more nuance in the books, and I don't think that's debateable whatsoever, even if you don't like his character.

actually most don't agree on anything when it comes to stannis (or practically any of the other characters). all the characters have more depth in the books than in the show, even the show favorites. so if we remove that, show stannis is where he was in the books at this point. his scene do show an interesting man and with the exception of the beach scene with melisandre, capture the big book scenes of his story. his scenes interactions with selyse are a different matter though. now that you guys could and should complain about but no one seems to care.

anyway, he really won the majority of his fans when he arrived at the wall and helped the crows fight. let's see what happens on the show then.

[jons nissa]

but D&D here imply he's totally on board with religious purging if it gets him to the Iron Throne. Even readers who don't like Stannis can see that he's uncomfortable with the Lord of Light.

but he is on board with it if it gets him the iron throne, whether he's uncomfortable with it or not. he's willing to burn edric because he thinks it will get him the throne but he's uncomfortable with it. he's willing to make sacrifices if it gets him the throne and yes, he's uncomfortable with it.

[Cas Stark]

but he is on board with it if it gets him the iron throne, whether he's uncomfortable with it or not. he's willing to burn edric because he thinks it will get him the throne but he's uncomfortable with it. he's willing to make sacrifices if it gets him the throne and yes, he's uncomfortable with it.

But here...he's not getting anything out of the burning...he's doing it only for religious reasons. No other crimes. No magical benefit.

[David Selig]

But here...he's not getting anything out of the burning...he's doing it only for religious reasons. No other crimes. No magical benefit.

Not only that, but establishing a reputation as someone who burns people simply for refusing to convert will be a major problem for his claim. He's trying to become a king of a realm where 99,999% of population follow other religions.

[Stannis-the-Mannis]

But here...he's not getting anything out of the burning...he's doing it only for religious reasons. No other crimes. No magical benefit.

Yeah, his discomfort/moral objections often outweigh his ambition. He could've burnt Edric Storm/Gendry 5 minutes after meeting him, but he doesn't. Here he burns 4 people for being 'infidels'. It just doesn't match up.

[Thelastactionhero]

actually most don't agree on anything when it comes to stannis (or practically any of the other characters). all the characters have more depth in the books than in the show, even the show favorites. so if we remove that, show stannis is where he was in the books at this point. his scene do show an interesting man and with the exception of the beach scene with melisandre, capture the big book scenes of his story. his scenes interactions with selyse are a different matter though. now that you guys could and should complain about but no one seems to care.

anyway, he really won the majority of his fans when he arrived at the wall and helped the crows fight. let's see what happens on the show then.

It's not just about depth. The context for events such as these burnings are radically different on the show than they are in the book, and they reflect very poorly on him as a character. These notions of duty and hard justice have been cast entirely to the wind for religious fundamentalism and lust for power. Stannis is certainly no angel in the book series, but I think it's more than clear that they've taken him to all new low with this episode. I find it funny that you think none of the complaints are justified, considering that even his motivation for going to the Wall has been changed as a result of episode 10. He says himself in the books that Davos reminded him of is duty, something that won a lot of us over because Stannis finaly realized what being a king actually meant. Here, he goes to the Wall because of Melisandre's urging, and only spares Davos because she tells him to. So yeah, we'll see what happens when he goes to the Wall, but I find it hard to believe that his arc is going to be anything but terrible after watching last night and listening to D&D's justifications for where they've taken him.

[Ran]

I'm with aeu. Stannis's main beef with the Florents is that they disobey him when he says he wants the idols torn down. Why does he wants them torn down? Because someone seems to convince him that he needs to consolidate his hold on Dragonstone by reinforcing his R'hllorianism and removing people who dissent strongly enough that they actually refuse his commands. Had the Florents just quietly gotten rid of their idols, nothing would have happened, but like the Rambtons they decided to make a stand against Stannis... and paid the price. Stannis can't afford any dissent right now.

Stannis's line about his hating many things, but tolerating them just the same, strikes me as an explicit remark on what happened before: he doesn't particularly care to be burning these people, but he tolerates it because he believes it's one of the only recourses left to him as he tries to figure out what to do next.

[The Abominable SnowOther]

Yeah, his discomfort/moral objections often outweigh his ambition. He could've burnt Edric Storm/Gendry 5 minutes after meeting him, but he doesn't. Here he burns 4 people for being 'infidels'. It just doesn't match up.

yah but i think that has to do more with him not having witnessed the "power" of the leeches yet

[Debb2]

I don't understand the problem with the word "infidel" amongst American viewers.

[aceluby]

I love how people here are angry because he burned people for being infidels vs traitors, as if in the end both don't mean he burnt people for not doing what he said.

Stannis in both the show and the book is plagued by whether to do the right thing or do whatever it takes to win the crown. And maybe because you can justify it in the books because of some 'get out of jail free' clause where kings can freely burn traitors (a la the mad king), maybe the reason you're pissed w/ this scene isn't because D&D are portraying him incorrectly, but that the way he is being portrayed truly shows some of the dark things he orders. I never understood the whitewashing of some of these traits.

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

I completely agree with this. They portray Stannis as such a dick in the TV show. 'Infidel'? Really? Stannis would never have used that phrase. Most of the Unsullied hate Stannis because they portray him so badly in the show.

True. I actually hate Stannis in the show, and I actually wonder why he hasnt had Davos killed yet. He just seems like that type of guy. Stannis is still a great character in the books, D&D cant touch him there, thank God.

[Cas Stark]

I love how people here are angry because he burned people for being infidels vs traitors, as if in the end both don't mean he burnt people for not doing what he said.

Stannis in both the show and the book is plagued by whether to do the right thing or do whatever it takes to win the crown. And maybe because you can justify it in the books because of some 'get out of jail free' clause where kings can freely burn traitors (a la the mad king), maybe the reason you're pissed w/ this scene isn't because D&D are portraying him incorrectly, but that the way he is being portrayed truly shows some of the dark things he orders. I never understood the whitewashing of some of these traits.

Everyone in Westeros executes traitors.

No one, not even Book Stannis, executives anyone for refusing to convert to any particular religion.

[Chebyshov]

Everyone in Westeros executes traitors.

No one, not even Book Stannis, executives anyone for refusing to convert to any particular religion.

It's a good point. And if you look at this thread, all the burnings that Mel do can at least be somewhat justified: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94921-how-many-people-has-melisandre-actually-burned/

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I'm not a Stannis fan, and I never really understood the complaints about Show!Stannis until last night. Even for me that was a bit over the top. Maybe they're doing it so his rescue of the NW will be all the more surprising?

There's also the fact that the show-runners know the end game. If this is their portrayal of Stannis, there's probably a reason for it, and it doesn't bode well for his supporters.

They also said they thought Renly would be a great king, and that hate Stannis. I think bias is more likely than they know the end.

Why are people getting so worked up over that one word? Stannis has always paid lip service to the Red God It's a key part of his character. He sticks a symbol of rh'llor on his family crest, brandishes a magic sword, burns septs, and forces conversions and no one bats an eye lid. But he calls a man an Infidel and suddenly his whole character is ruined....

What am i missing here?

Because in this case, one word changes the entire scene motivations. Rather than executing people for treason, he was killing them for believing in the wrong gods which are very different things.

I'm not bothered by the word "infidel." I'm bothered that Stannis killed people for worshiping the wrong god regardless of whether he is a "true believer" or if he is just doing it for pragmatic reasons.

How can they hate Stannis though? They read the books. Why don't they see the interesting and dynamic character everyone else sees?

Because he killed Renly? I remember the interview where they were talking about how horrible he was, they said Renly would make a great king. Of course, it was during Season 2.

But everyone doesn't see the characters in the same way. I don't see Dany as Targaryen Jesus, LOL, but D&D give every impression of seeing her as a straight up savior figure. So, there is no reason they have to see that the good in Stannis outweighs the bad, they probably don't "hate" him, but their take seems to err on the side of negativity, TV Stan is weaker, less decisive, and more rash and much less "just" than Book Stan, at least by my count, and I'm not even really a Stannis fan.

It's the white savior trope where a white person comes in and solves everyone problems.

Book!Dany is a deconstruction of this and shows us why it is a bad thing. Each city kinda represent a different form of it. Asatapor, killing the bad guys and leaving. Yunkai, making the bad guys "stop." And of course, Mereen is occupation.

It's actually a pretty awesome takedown of a very racist trope that tells people brown people would be so much better off listening to white people.

Unfortunately, Show!Dany is playing this trope straight.

((I do want to say that I don't think D&D are racist. But I think they love Dany and whitewash her, which unintentionally makes make the trope played straight. However, since most of the consequences of Dany's actions shouldn't have happened yet in the show, they could easy still show us the "white savior is a bad thing.")

[E-Ro]

They also said they thought Renly would be a great king, and that hate Stannis. I think bias is more likely than they know the end.

Because in this case, one word changes the entire scene motivations. Rather than executing people for treason, he was killing them for believing in the wrong gods which are very different things.

I'm not bothered by the word "infidel." I'm bothered that Stannis killed people for worshiping the wrong god regardless of whether he is a "true believer" or if he is just doing it for pragmatic reasons.

Because he killed Renly? I remember the interview where they were talking about how horrible he was, they said Renly would make a great king. Of course, it was during Season 2.

It's the white savior trope where a white person comes in and solves everyone problems.

Book!Dany is a deconstruction of this and shows us why it is a bad thing. Each city kinda represent a different form of it. Asatapor, killing the bad guys and leaving. Yunkai, making the bad guys "stop." And of course, Mereen is occupation.

It's actually a pretty awesome takedown of a very racist trope that tells people brown people would be so much better off listening to white people.

Unfortunately, Show!Dany is playing this trope straight.

((I do want to say that I don't think D&D are racist. But I think they love Dany and whitewash her, which unintentionally makes make the trope played straight. However, since most of the consequences of Dany's actions shouldn't have happened yet in the show, they could easy still show us the "white savior is a bad thing.")

Yuuuuuup.

Anyway, the problem with the word "infidel" is pretty fucking clear, its a word heavily synonymous with terrorism. As a person that has had family affected by the events on 9/11 who also happens to love stannis, hearing this pissed me off. Its clear that the showrunners are going out of their way to make Stannis look as bad as possible. They have gone so far as to ADMIT the bias openly.

You know this is a real issue when you have people that dont even like stannis take issue with it. Then of course you have the people that will defend the show no matter what lend their two cents with strawmen about people complaining. A great example in these posts:

D&D personally hate me and this is why they butcher Stannis.

It is a personal vendetta against me.

You're not missing anything. Just ignore the usual reactionaries.

We can all agree(except for the people that posted this nonsense of course) that these posts add nothing to the discussion, and exist merely to hand wave other peoples opinions on the matter.

[Guard of the Rainking]

Just watched the inside episode video. If Stannis is going to be in the "do whatever Melisandre says to get the Iron Throne that I've always lusted for" mode by the end of the season then the show Stannis is irredeemable. Even though D&D know the ending of the series I'm not making the assumption that Stannis will become a villain in the last two books. Don't get me wrong there's a big possibility for that to happen in the books, but right now it seems like that D&D are going with the "bare bones, black and white, Dany wanking, cannibal Thenning, whitewashed Tyrioning, sexpositioning, book spoiling, seven season long" version of the story. Even if he becomes a villain he was still an awesome grey character during most of the story, and there is no good reason to blackwash him.

I had some hope for the character to be redeemed after the third season. That hope twindeled after I watched the second episode and has almost extinguished after I watched the inside episode video. Fingers crossed that it gets better.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I expect no other thing than stannis butchering wilding women and children just when Jon Snow is almost reaching a paceful agreement with mance.

Perhaps with SW imperial march as soundtrack.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Well, aeu summed up and quoted the majority of where I'm at with the whole Stannis situation.

And kudos to the OP for making good on the title of the thread.

I also see a Stannis that is very much tolerating his current situation. People have said the fact that since Davos worships the Seven, his being not roasted for being an infidel is a continuity problem. But I see it as further proof that Stannis' heart isn't in what he's doing. That it's about the fact that these "offerings" seem to work. Now, that doesn't change the fact that this whole scene really kind of felt like a repeated beat, just more of the same.

While Stannis does have the letter from the NW, and therefore his purpose, it still seems like his focus is very much the Iron Throne. And that's fine. That's a corner he still has to turn. I think (well, hope) that sometime in the next few eps we'll get the epic "cart before the horse" bit from Davos. I think (hope) that moment will do away with a lot of frustrations as many people have said they felt in S3E10 Stannis wanted to go North because of Mel, not Davos. Well, they haven't left yet. I think if they pull off the "cart before the horse" scene, especially with where Stannis is mentally, it could be very powerful for both Stannis and Davos.

I think Stannis has to, and we have to see him, fully abandon the quest for the IT. It's the last "threshold" he has to cross. And I think (again, hope) that moment is coming.