[TV/Book Spoilers] PTV Unsullied Thread Part 8

[spork]

This poster over at PTV (you know the one if you've read that board for any length of time) is so eloquent, and really spot on about Littlefinger's character/motivation(s):

My feeling about Littlefinger is that he represents a particular type of Broken Thing: the vengeful victim of bullies. He is a grown, intelligent, patient, far-reaching version of the contemporary kids who shoot up their schools. Or a despot who began his climb as an apparatchik, useful to all and valued by none, from beginnings with his face ground into the schoolyard.

The closest he ever came to love, is what he felt toward those who wronged him. He wanted to have them if he couldn't be them; to be them if he couldn't have them. But he wasn't, and they wouldn't have him. The closest he ever came to love is hating them. Every one of them: every lord, every lady. And every other person the lords and ladies wronged, like him. Their children, their pets, their whores, their servants, their soldiers, their slaves, their victims.

He wants everything because he hates everyone. Because long ago, when he was trying to discover who he was, some other children let him know that he was nothing, that he was not what they were -- that he had no place among them. He wore this mark like a hairshirt, and went to make his fortune. As he climbed the ladder, by making himself despised and indispensable, he seemingly played into the hands of his colleagues, his enemies, by inventing for himself a family crest for a family with no other members -- and as his sigyl, a mockingbird.

It took almost nothing on his part to take everything from them. He barely had to stoop to pick up what they mislaid. He saw how right they had always been: he was not like them. Now they were too stupid even to see that. The profligate King, the adulterous Queen, the bastard heirs, the disaffected brothers, the craven ministers, the palsied Hand. All these brave highborn with their brains shrunk down to the size of the Targareyns' last dragons. All ready, like them, for the sept.

If they knew it was he who sealed the door behind them -- if they knew it was he who remembered all their names and then stole them from history, who made sure they would be forgotten -- that would not be everything, but that would be a start. He was not like them. They were the heroes. He was what happened to heroes; he was how the story ended.

[The Anti-Targ]

Seems they are missing a detail in the Varys-Illyrio plot a bit. At the time Varys and Illyrio were plotting neither of them expected real-live dragons to eventuate. So Varys being anti-magic did not factor into his thinking at all, at least not until after he got 100% confirmation that the dragons are real.

[spork]

Seems they are missing a detail in the Varys-Illyrio plot a bit. At the time Varys and Illyrio were plotting neither of them expected real-live dragons to eventuate. So Varys being anti-magic did not factor into his thinking at all, at least not until after he got 100% confirmation that the dragons are real.

Exactly my thoughts too when reading those comments (see my above post). It's skewing their speculation in that regard. Hopefully someone will remind them that no one could have predicted that would happen.

[Mr Fixit]

This poster over at PTV (you know the one if you've read that board for any length of time) is so eloquent, and really spot on about Littlefinger's character/motivation(s):

This is among the best things I've ever read from the Unsullied.

[Which Tyler]

This poster over at PTV (you know the one if you've read that board for any length of time) is so eloquent, and really spot on about Littlefinger's character/motivation(s):

I was just coming over to post exactly that

[King Zee]

Is that a theory around here? I hadn't heard that. I always believed Varys and Illyrio to be Targ supporters. I know there's the whole "Varys hates magic" deal, but no one knew the dragon eggs could actually hatch or that Dany was fireproof. There is something to be said for Varys' "I serve the realm", though - seems like war of any kind (including Targs + Dothraki invaders) does not lone up with that goal. Someone with that ideal should strive for the status quo at all times, methinks.

Unless you were being ironic...? Hrm...

if Illyrio and Varys are Blackfyres then their aim would be to extinguish the main Targ line.

[spork]

if Illyrio and Varys are Blackfyres then their aim would be to extinguish the main Targ line.

I agree, if they are Blackfyres that would be true. But then why wouldn't they easily kill Dany, Viserys, and Aegon (if he's real) when they had the chance?

[LordCouture]

I agree, if they are Blackfyres that would be true. But then why wouldn't they easily kill Dany, Viserys, and Aegon (if he's real) when they had the chance?

Well, if Varys and Illyrio are on team Blackfyre, then Aegon is a Blackfyre. They didn't kill Viserys and Dany because they wanted the Dothraki to invade Westeros (leading the way to Aegon taking over). They thought Viserys and Dany would get killed along the way and if it didn't happen, then Varys could kill them after the invasion.

[Luthien125]

I agree, if they are Blackfyres that would be true. But then why wouldn't they easily kill Dany, Viserys, and Aegon (if he's real) when they had the chance?

Illyrio was able to convince the Golden Company to leave their contract and help Aegon. That is something not easily done, and if he truly was a Targ supporter he would have done it with Viserys and Dany, and united them earlier with Aegon.

Actually, I believe Aegon is a Blackfyre, just that he doesn't know it yet.. If he knew and if other Westerosi knew (including Jon Con) he could never get even close to the Iron Throne, there are no more Blackfyre supporting families and they have pretty much been painted as monsters after the last rebellion even between the smallfolk (Maelys the Mountruos vs. Hero Barristan the Bold?).

That is why Illyrio is posing as a Targ supporter by "helping" Dany and Viserys.. Why would he go after all the trouble of brokering the marriage?: Maybe because he wanted to keep the Dothrakis at bay and in his favour, he was sure Dany and Viserys would not survive (he tells Tyrion as much) but by "helping" them he was actually ensuring the Dothraki would help Aegon when his fight came. If he would have been truly helpfull he would have married Dany to Aegon from the begining or given them the Golden Company...

I know this is not the thread for it, but I'm just saying that Unsullied is not so far off...

EDIT: for typo

[franko99]

From NeoGAF

Even if they don't, the fact Dorne didn't do jack shit in the war of 5 kings--as you feel they did--shows they wouldn't do much if Little Finger tries something. If you're right then Stannis literally marched on King's Landing and they did all of jack shit, they didn't support anyone. I'd say they'll do the same if Little Finger tries an assault on King's Landing, but odds are he won't be that overt. When Little Finger makes his big move no one will see it coming and Dorne is going to do shit to stop him. They don't seem interested in the game of thrones.

In that we agree in. I don't think Dorne cares at all about the Iron Throne. With Littlefinger's ambitions though, it depends on how far he wants to push this whole Seven Kingdoms business. Would he be content with six kingdoms, or will he push for Dorne as well?

Those guys are not expecting Doran's long term plot, it will blown their minds :P

I also wouldn't count out Daeny. She's closest to Braavos than anyone. It's not unreasonable to think she'll look their direction as well as she tries to turn slaver's bay into free cities, eventually setting her sights on Westeros. If I'm the Iron Bank, Daeny easily has the three most compelling reasons for me to throw my weight behind her, and they all breathe fire.

Funny, this is probably the reason why they won't help Dany (of course, there's no way for them to know this)

[The Onion Sleight]

^ I hope someone will say something next episode about the Braavosi's hate for Dragons.

Some explanation about Braavos' historical past and mentality would be great; I hope somehow the Unsullied'll hear it... I'm sure there will be a "Histories and Lore" video about Braavos next DVDs-Box, but if they're hardcore Unsullied and don't watch them...*sigh*...

[The Onion Sleight]

I find their opinion about Jojen really... disturbing. I know they still mistrust the Reeds, but that's hard:

________________________________________________________

Quote (PTV):

"Updating my thoughts on that Jojen kid..

I still don't trust him. In many ways he's still mysterious and too manipulative.

Let's get to the visions. Now with visions/prophecies/future predictions there are two ways to go, determinism vs free will. With determinism, it means that whatever you see in a vision, doesn't matter, it will still come true no matter what you do. Whereas with free will, you can change the course of history such that the event does not come to pass. I'm not sure what they are going for here, because this is the first time Jojen is seeing a vision of the future. Not that of the present ( like the Jon Snow one ), because he has seen his own death where his hand gets set on fire. I don't know how this makes him 100% confident that Gin-Alley Karl would not just run a sword through him, and then set him on fire later.

And that's my problem with the visions. They are of zero practical value. Why doesn't he have a vision 'I saw some bad guys.. at Craster's keep.. lets stay away from there'. No, of course not. Let's not kid ourselves, Jojen is 100% useless. Atleast his sister knows how to use weapons. Oh .. he's supposed to be a mentor for Bran. And that brings us to our next problem.. Why, exactly? In a previous episode, Jojen tells Bran he can't survive on the food that his wolf eats. So who died and made him an expert in this area all of a sudden. He can't even worg to begin with. And in this epsiode, he 'convinces' Bran not to call out to Jon and instead go away. This is.. problematic. It is not Bran's 'decision' ( he was calling out 'Jon!' just two seconds back ). And he should be knowing his brother well enough that he would leave them to go wherever, rather than taking them to Castle Black. ( how does that even work, does he drag them back in chains or something? )

See, Bran always, always follows exactly what Jojen says. The 'Jojen logic' goes something like this- We can't go to Castle Black because Jon isn't there and is surrounded by 'enemies'. Now Jon is there but we can't contact him because he would drag us back to Castle black. Yeah.. 'Jojen logic' is self defeating and contradictory. Why doesn't he say out loud that his mission is to get Bran to the Tree in which the 3 eyed raven lives. That was their mission all along and obviously so.. they are agents of the raven and we don't really know even what they are - I've speculated that they are 'children of the forest'. ( Does anyone still believe their nonsensical cover story - being Stark Bannermen, really? ) This isn't a mentor/pupil relationship, or a hero/sidekick. It's more like master/slave relationship and disturbingly similar to Melisandre/Stannis. We know Melisandre uses sex and black magic to manipulate Stannis, and Jojen is doing the same , though his magical powers aren't well defined but he clearly has some."

_____________________________________________________________

Wow... so Bran/Jojen are now Stannis/Mel, but without the sex?! -.-

It's really hard for me to see how much the Unsullied dislike these two storylines; for them they stand for boredom and uselessness, and other big problems are:

- They don't understand the real characters of these two relationships

- They know too less about them

- (And the most important one maybe) I see so often how much the Unsullied hate the magical aspects of the series, they are so mistrustful and suspicious of them...

I will never understand why people think there's something like black/dark/bad magic and the "good one" - Do they know where the magic comes from? Have they already seen what are the intentions of the "magical people"? Why have they so much fewer problems with dragons?! Why do people have to be manipulative when they have special powers? (I understand their opinion about Mel at this point of the story, but Jojen?!) Do they know what magic of every kind costs?

What is black magic and what not? Many of them have decided opinions about Mel, Bran, Jojen, dragons, a.s.o. I would love to see what they think about Thoros (now and then after the LS reveal)... You cannot label the magic as bad/good such easily.

I hope the show will find a way in the future to change their opinions about the magical stuff (also because it becomes so much more important in the future!) and make it more understandable for them.

Edited: Oh, and this sentence: "[...] I've speculated that they are 'children of the forest'. ( Does anyone still believe their nonsensical cover story - being Stark Bannermen, really? ) [...]" God, the show and its strange introduction :( Unsullied don't believe they are Stark bannermen? Howland, where are you when you're needed...

[Darryk]

I find their opinion about Jojen really... disturbing. I know they still mistrust the Reeds, but that's hard:

________________________________________________________

Quote (PTV):

"Updating my thoughts on that Jojen kid..

I still don't trust him. In many ways he's still mysterious and too manipulative.

Let's get to the visions. Now with visions/prophecies/future predictions there are two ways to go, determinism vs free will. With determinism, it means that whatever you see in a vision, doesn't matter, it will still come true no matter what you do. Whereas with free will, you can change the course of history such that the event does not come to pass. I'm not sure what they are going for here, because this is the first time Jojen is seeing a vision of the future. Not that of the present ( like the Jon Snow one ), because he has seen his own death where his hand gets set on fire. I don't know how this makes him 100% confident that Gin-Alley Karl would not just run a sword through him, and then set him on fire later.

And that's my problem with the visions. They are of zero practical value. Why doesn't he have a vision 'I saw some bad guys.. at Craster's keep.. lets stay away from there'. No, of course not. Let's not kid ourselves, Jojen is 100% useless. Atleast his sister knows how to use weapons. Oh .. he's supposed to be a mentor for Bran. And that brings us to our next problem.. Why, exactly? In a previous episode, Jojen tells Bran he can't survive on the food that his wolf eats. So who died and made him an expert in this area all of a sudden. He can't even worg to begin with. And in this epsiode, he 'convinces' Bran not to call out to Jon and instead go away. This is.. problematic. It is not Bran's 'decision' ( he was calling out 'Jon!' just two seconds back ). And he should be knowing his brother well enough that he would leave them to go wherever, rather than taking them to Castle Black. ( how does that even work, does he drag them back in chains or something? )

See, Bran always, always follows exactly what Jojen says. The 'Jojen logic' goes something like this- We can't go to Castle Black because Jon isn't there and is surrounded by 'enemies'. Now Jon is there but we can't contact him because he would drag us back to Castle black. Yeah.. 'Jojen logic' is self defeating and contradictory. Why doesn't he say out loud that his mission is to get Bran to the Tree in which the 3 eyed raven lives. That was their mission all along and obviously so.. they are agents of the raven and we don't really know even what they are - I've speculated that they are 'children of the forest'. ( Does anyone still believe their nonsensical cover story - being Stark Bannermen, really? ) This isn't a mentor/pupil relationship, or a hero/sidekick. It's more like master/slave relationship and disturbingly similar to Melisandre/Stannis. We know Melisandre uses sex and black magic to manipulate Stannis, and Jojen is doing the same , though his magical powers aren't well defined but he clearly has some."

_____________________________________________________________

Wow... so Bran/Jojen are now Stannis/Mel, but without the sex?! -.-

It's really hard for me to see how much the Unsullied dislike these two storylines; for them they stand for boredom and uselessness, and other big problems are:

- They don't understand the real characters of these two relationships

- They know too less about them

- (And the most important one maybe) I see so often how much the Unsullied hate the magical aspects of the series, they are so mistrustful and suspicious of them...

I will never understand why people think there's something like black/dark/bad magic and the "good one" - Do they know where the magic comes from? Have they already seen what are the intentions of the "magical people"? Why have they so much fewer problems with dragons?! Why do people have to be manipulative when they have special powers? (I understand their opinion about Mel at this point of the story, but Jojen?!) Do they know what magic of every kind costs?

What is black magic and what not? Many of them have decided opinions about Mel, Bran, Jojen, dragons, a.s.o. I would love to see what they think about Thoros (now and then after the LS reveal)... You cannot label the magic as bad/good such easily.

I hope the show will find a way in the future to change their opinions about the magical stuff (also because it becomes so much more important in the future!) and make it more understandable for them.

Well we can't really blame them; the show has given very little background information on the Reeds. If the unsullied knew they were sworn bannermen of House Stark (and especially loyal ones); that they have a reputation for mysticism; that their father fought alongside Ned Stark in Robert's rebellion; that he may be the only person alive who knows the truth about Jon's parentage etc; then they would feel very differently about them.

As it is, most of the Unsullied still aren't sure why Bran is going north in the first place, and still have no idea who the Reeds are.

There was a scene where Jojen mentions his father but I don't think it sunk in. It needed to be stressed, that their father was someone important and that their family has served the Starks loyally for ages; kind of like how the show is constantly alluding to the Iron Bank of Braavos so even Unsullied realize it's going to be important.

Sadly one of the areas where the show has fallen short IMO. Maybe they want the audience to mistrust the Reeds, but I don't see how that serves the story; the fact that so many Unsullied are either confused by that whole storyline, or suspicious of the Reeds, is a failure on the show's part, which is a shame since the actors playing them are doing a fantastic job. Surely some of the naked whore time could have gone towards fleshing the Reeds out more?

[franko99]

Well we can't really blame them; the show has given very little background information on the Reeds. If the unsullied knew they were sworn bannermen of House Stark (and especially loyal ones); that they have a reputation for mysticism; that their father fought alongside Ned Stark in Robert's rebellion; that he may be the only person alive who knows the truth about Jon's parentage etc; then they would feel very differently about them.

As it is, most of the Unsullied still aren't sure why Bran is going north in the first place, and still have no idea who the Reeds are.

There was a scene where Jojen mentions his father but I don't think it sunk in. It needed to be stressed, that their father was someone important and that their family has served the Starks loyally for ages; kind of like how the show is constantly alluding to the Iron Bank of Braavos so even Unsullied realize it's going to be important.

Sadly one of the areas where the show has fallen short IMO. Maybe they want the audience to mistrust the Reeds, but I don't see how that serves the story; the fact that so many Unsullied are either confused by that whole storyline, or suspicious of the Reeds, is a failure on the show's part, which is a shame since the actors playing them are doing a fantastic job. Surely some of the naked whore time could have gone towards fleshing the Reeds out more?

Yeah, we need some naked Meera doing some sexposition LOL

Anyways, "PTV Unsullieds" don't like magic at all, not only the Reeds. They hated the BWB as soon as they mentioned the Red God, they loved Jaquen in season 2, but as soon as they realized he mentioned the "Red God" they stop liking him, they don't trust wargs or the Reeds, etc.

So far the dragons are the only magic thing they like.

But that's someting I only see in that particular group, magic has been welcomed in every other "unsullied" thread I've seen, so it's not really the show doing a terrible job.

[The Onion Sleight]

^ Thank you for enlightening me about these paticular Unsullied :) I'm glad to hear they are a minority (The PTV crew are anyway often very strange compared to others XD). Good, if other guys like the magic (otherwise they will realize anytime that the show's not the right thing for them).

@Darryk: Yeah, it's really more a thing of confusion and too less information and knowledge. But luckily there's still time to explain some more, I think... and at the latest when Howland finally shows up we should have heard more of the Reed family ;)

(And yes, Thomas and Ellie are doing an incredible job! I love these cast desicions, I find them very fitting.)

[Floredaï]

Someone on neogaf has pointed the weirwood tree vision as a significant hint of what's coming,

"I'm very curious as to what the hell the trees have anything to do with all of this conflict.
My guess is that there is going to be something that is the equivalent of White Walkers but for the humans. It would be one hell of a way for the Starks to come back to their Northern territory and reclaim the North as king."

And then another poster hit right on the nail : "Those trees have seen some shit. I'm just thinking Bran can tap into the memories of any of the trees that have faces carved into them, which would give him a lot of info"

But nobody else seized the idea; they are still wondering (as we are) when and how will Benjen resurface.

[ebevan91]

Their mistrust of the Reeds is disappointing, but I also have to put some blame on D&D for not having them come to Winterfell in season 2. If they would've came to Winterfell in season 2 and said their little oath, maybe they'd trust them more.

But that never happened on the show, so I'll just continue on with smashing my head into the wall when I read their posts about the Reeds.

:bang:

[go joff go]

Somewhere some Unsullied were raving about ther favorite ships including this gem:

"Now that Renly is dead I ship Loras/being beautiful" :wideeyed: :owned:

I was like "Damn, GRRM is a genius", and "Yeah, good luck with that".

More on topic, yeah, it seems many of the online Unsullied were sufficiently blown away by the Jon Arryn reveal. I was happily surprised by that too. Well, there was one poster who didn't understand a thing, couldn't remember who Jon Arryn was (or Catelyn Stark :bang: ), but otherwise very smooth.

it just shows the difference between knowing what's going to happen and not knowing. It seemed glossed over to readers because they already knew, but if that was the first you heard of it then it stands out.

[go joff go]

This is among the best things I've ever read from the Unsullied.

Which by the way isn't really the motivation in the book. I don't think it is necessarily an improvement over the book, but I'm glad there is a least a hint of a motive.

[bobbybuilderton]

So far, it seems most of them are talking about Tyrion's trial (understandable). And very few mentions of Daenerys's story, with the ones who do either thinking the point was that she's bored or that she was wrong to let him bury his father because it "wasn't badass enough." Completely missing the point that she indiscriminately had 163 people murdered. Two wrongs don't make a right, as they say. "Is it justice to answer one crime with another?" As I've said, valid, reasonable criticism of her is just met with fanaticism. How annoying.