(BEWARE SPOILERS) Book Lovers beware this episode was better than we expected

[Daske]

There is no "need to criticize" anything. Looks like it's the very opposite: some posters obviously feel the need to defend the show, which probably means the show is doing a lot of things wrong.

Love is stronger than hate, man.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

No one is talking about it but...Marg scene with Tommen was one of the finest acting Natalie has done untill now. Also, it gave us ser Pounce. Brilliant.

:agree:

I loved that scene. I have to admit though I was a little worried for a minute. I know show Tommen is older but all I could think at that moment was poor little book Tommen is about to get molested! It turned out brilliantly tho :)

[SerArthurHeath]

Well for one thing Oberyn sex shows us how different Dornish culture is to Westerosi culture and this is consistent with the books and other Dornish characters we will meet. It also cements the passionate nature of Oberyn and most of his kin, their approach to multi-partner relationships that could even be an important plot point should certain theories be true and this is just off the cuff. I'd say it has at least as much right to exist as a useful scene as Cersei and Taena or in fact most of the written sex scenes in the show that aren't Bran catching the twins in the act

[Jairion Lannister]

I think the changes at the Wall are risky because there is a worry that by taking a lot of it off course, they'll stray too far away from the source material, but a lot of the changes are good. Bran's deviation at the Wall gives him screentime before reaching the cave, and for viewers it adds the tension of a possible Jon/Bran meeting. Plus, Locke is a very good character I think and a good addition to the storyline at the Wall since his alternative motives and lone ranger status adds extra interest.

[Miodrag]

Oberyn: To quickly sum up the nature of his character. He is a bisexual cocky fucker who happens to be a prince with vendetta on his mind.

Ros: Her character was meant to cut down the cost of having to hire whores who know how to act. LF's brothels are a part of the books as much as the show.

And Oberyn's bisexuality is important... for what exactly? What possible role will his sexuality play in the story, if they don't change it from the books? As for his cocky-fucker nature, wasn't it depicted - and much better, if I may suggest - in the books as well, only without brothel scenes? GRRM hinted at his bisexuality, but didn't make a big deal out of it, because it isn't too important. GRRM depicted how brazen and cocky he is, but he did it through a great dialogue with Tyrion, and not through some boring brothel scenes. Not to mention that, yes, filming a dialogue is less money and time consuming than filming a brothel orgy that is turned into a armed confrontation.

LF's brothel is important in the books, but not as a vehicle for depicting orgies.

[Daske]

And Oberyn's bisexuality is important... for what exactly? What possible role will his sexuality play in the story.

I think it's another example of they just can't win. Some people were vocally critical of the show because Xaro Xhaoan Daxos was never even mentioned as bisexual in the show. We now have a couple of scenes where they highlight it with Oberyn, who is mean to be this great larger than life lover, and that gets flack from another quarter!

[salmonsnake]

Not often does one find arguments from the viewpoint of austerity forwarded with what seems like passion. We cannot afford this! It is not important! To view the world with bookkeeper's eyes...

[protar]

I think it's another example of they just can't win. Some people were vocally critical of the show because Xaro Xhaoan Daxos was never even mentioned as bisexual in the show. We now have a couple of scenes where they highlight it with Oberyn, who is mean to be this great larger than life lover, and that gets flack from another quarter!

The first scene was perfectly valid in establishing Oberyn's character. We really don't need two rather lengthy scenes of Oberyn and Ellaria having sex or about to be having sex with different gendered prostitutes. We get it, Oberyn's bi. And that's great, but they've expanded a single line about Oberyn in the books to half of his entire characterisation in the show (the other half being his hatred of the Lannisters).

There is absolutely no subtlety or nuance to the portrayal of LGBT characters on the show. The three LGBT male characters are defined almost or entirely by their LGBTness, and the LGBT women...well up until S4 there were none which is pretty interesting given the amount of lesbian sex prior to Ellaria's introduction.

[Miodrag]

Well for one thing Oberyn sex shows us how different Dornish culture is to Westerosi culture and this is consistent with the books and other Dornish characters we will meet. It also cements the passionate nature of Oberyn and most of his kin, their approach to multi-partner relationships that could even be an important plot point should certain theories be true and this is just off the cuff. I'd say it has at least as much right to exist as a useful scene as Cersei and Taena or in fact most of the written sex scenes in the show that aren't Bran catching the twins in the act

But, all of that could be depicted through his dialogues with Tyrion. Dornish culture? Emphasized by Oberyn's suggestion that Myrcella can be crowned. Passionate nature of Oberyn? I think it was very obvious from the books, even though he didn't have a single sex scene there - every word of his was passionate, regardless of was he talking about his murdered sister or about whores with big tits. And, by the way, the show didn't portray him as a passionate so much as a pervert. Also, how many brothel scenes the show needs to portray Oberyn's relationship to his paramour?

Again, it's not about anyone's rights to write or like whatever one wants. But, the fact is that Cersei's power-obsessed lust is instrumental for both her character and the story in general, that is undoubtedly influenced by her character (actually, her frustration at not being a man is possibly the one thing that started everything). While, on the other hand, Oberyn's lust plays no part whatsoever. He's described as lustful in the books, and it does help with picturing him in reader's head, but it's not instrumental for the depiction of his character.

Now, I don't mean to say that only those aspects that are instrumental, should be depicted in the show. In the contrary, the show is often devoid of that kind of "little things" that make the universe richer and more relatable. But, in hindsight, it looks like the show allows only two kinds of those "little things": 1) how dangerous and wicked these people are, and 2) how lustful they are. And it does get boring. In some other adaptation of ASOIAF, perhaps Oberyn's brothel adventures wouldn't be a problem at all. But, after three seasons of sex and gore tuned up to 11, it is quite another story.

[Miodrag]

I think it's another example of they just can't win. Some people were vocally critical of the show because Xaro Xhaoan Daxos was never even mentioned as bisexual in the show. We now have a couple of scenes where they highlight it with Oberyn, who is mean to be this great larger than life lover, and that gets flack from another quarter!

And, what do complaints about Xaro have to do with complaints about Oberyn? How are those two related?

[Starksmustwin]

Oh my god... I replied to this like 10 posts before this. And what makes you think I've read the books? And also... I've heard people complain about far more interesting things the show has cut or deviated from the books, so why must they show gratuitous sex just because it's that way in the books? And it's not that they show it. Every premium cable show has gratuitous sex every now & then. It's that they show it ALL... THE... TIME!

This is a gritty medieval world. Splashes of gore, sex, nudity, etc only add to that feel. Besides that, there is normally 5 minutes or less of nudity in each episode. This is simply another case of this board blowing something way out of proportion. And if your issue with the sex is due to who you watch it with (buddies, parents, etc), then either watch it alone or with people you feel comfortable with. They chose HBO for a reason. This show wouldn't be half as good on a network station.

[Cas Stark]

The problem with Oberyn is they're reducing him to a caracature...BISEXUAL HEDONIST. Good grief, don't he and Ellairia ever have 1/1 sex, are they always in an orgy situation?

[Han Snow]

What is the most gratuitous thing here is your tone.

Yes, you are right. I do apologize for my tone and attitude, they were completely unnecessary. On the rest, we disagree and that is it. Though I do have one more question: Why wait to stop watching if you hate the show so fiercely and view it as some kind of abomination? Chances of it surpassing the books are rather high, so why wait? What do you get from watching something that you clearly hate?

[Starksmustwin]

Yes, I know Sam did not promise in the show. :P

But you should re-read Jon's chapters if you think there's nothing important in the books regarding Jon not knowing about Bran.

Jon has dreams about Bran and he sees Summer when he's escaping the Wildlings. Do you honestly believe he doesn't know Bran is alive?

Plus... Book =/= show. They could go a completely different route in the show and make Tommen marry Arya and it wouldn't affect the books at all. Heck, at this point, since the show is going to surpass the books within the next year or so, the show writers are probably going to make up their own fine details anyway. So, when you read the last two books, the likelihood of them being extremely close to the show is slim.

[Starksmustwin]

The problem is that the book scenes you mentioned could be random, but Bran & Co at Crasters should NOT have happened...Sam met Bran and Co while fleeing from Crasters, knowing what had happened there...so when Sam helps Bran and Co get through The Wall, that's the one place they should already know not to go. And, when they do go there, they shouldn't be surprised at what they find.

Unless we're supposed to believe that when Sam led them through The Wall, he "forgot" to tell them about Craster.

They didn't go to Crasters on purpose..... bran heard a baby crying, he warged and stumbles into a trap. He went to Crasters to save Summer and Ghost. It's not like he went looking for Crasters.

[Daske]

And, what do complaints about Xaro have to do with complaints about Oberyn? How are those two related?

Because in the case of the former the show got flack from some for not mentioning his sexuality at all, although it wasn't important to the story. And in the case of the latter it is being criticised by some for mentioning it too much. In fact I recall some saying they were convinced that Oberyn's sexuality would be 'glossed over'. My point is someone will damn the writers whatever they do.

[Miodrag]

Though I do have one more question: Why wait to stop watching if you hate the show so fiercely and view it as some kind of abomination? Chances of it surpassing the books are rather high, so why wait? What do you get from watching something that you clearly hate?

But I don't hate the show. It's very bad in my opinion, but why would I hate it? D&D didn't offend me. They harmed me in no way. I have no reason to hate them. I hate their constant whining about how difficult a task they undertook, but that's another matter (I hate that kind of whining in general, and I am surrounded by it in real life, by the way). I have nothing against them personally, nor against their show, nor against the people that like their show. (To be clear, it doesn't influence my opinion on the people that happen to love it. Who knows what kind of stuff I like that you, for example, would think pure rubbish.) I just happen to strongly dislike the show, is all. And, truth be told, I dislike a lot of TV or movies, because of the same reasons I dislike GoT for, but the source material is what sets GoT apart. Like, there is no other adaptation of this scale and nature, that I can follow so closely. That's some rewarding stuff for all kinds of analyzing. And this posting and these debates do help a lot in analyzing the process of adaptation, even if many posters disagree with my views (in fact, it only helps, cause I like my views to be challenged). Since I'm in the creative business myself, all this can't help but be helpful. But, once there is no source material to compare the TV show against, it will loose all the benefit for me, most probably.

[Miodrag]

Because in the case of the former the show got flack from some for not mentioning his sexuality at all, although it wasn't important to the story. And in the case of the latter it is being criticised by some for mentioning it too much. In fact I recall some saying they were convinced that Oberyn's sexuality would be 'glossed over'. My point is someone will damn the writers whatever they do.

But it's apples and oranges. If Xaro's sexuality was exploited the way Oberyn's is, I'd criticize the same thing. If Oberyn's sexuality was completely ignored, or completely altered as Xaro's was, it'd be as bad. So, if inconsistency in criticizing the show is what you're referring to, perhaps you got it wrong.

[protar]

Because in the case of the former the show got flack from some for not mentioning his sexuality at all, although it wasn't important to the story. And in the case of the latter it is being criticised by some for mentioning it too much. In fact I recall some saying they were convinced that Oberyn's sexuality would be 'glossed over'. My point is someone will damn the writers whatever they do.

Obviously whatever D+D do they will be damned and praised by different people. But it isn't fair to paint all purists with the same brush. Even those who complained about the lack of Xaro's sexuality have every right to be disgruntled at Oberyn's portrayal. Things aren't black and white here - wanting a character's sexuality to be mentioned does not mean you want another character to be made into a caricature by their sexuality.

[SerArthurHeath]

Frankly I'd love for as much long detailed conversations between characters like Tyrion and Oberyn as possible, keeping true to or even increasing on the books, but too much talking wouldn't work as well in a visual medium IMO!