[Book Spoiler] Justice and Vengeance

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Mereen and astapor are 2 completely different cities, Or should Winterfell get upset when Dorne is under attack?

Winterfell, as co-members of the 7K with Dorne should definitely get upset if a foreigner comes in under the guise of honest trade then burns and pillages Dorne, yes.

[Little and Less]

I just liked how Tywin told us about what a "good King should be" and now we debate whether Dany is following those lines. I'm learning life lessons all over the place! :eek:

[ovis alba]

Yes take me on record as not caring at all that the GM's or Slaver's were killed.

To me it's not about caring, it's more about Dany and why this is a big step towards her "failing" to rule and her having a quiet inconsistent sense of justice and demonstrating it that way is one of the main reasons.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Winterfell, as co-members of the 7K with Dorne should definitely get upset if a foreigner comes in under the guise of honest trade then burns and pillages Dorne, yes.

Right...that's why Dorne came to WF's aide when WF was under attack from the ironborn right? in fact why would the ironborn attack WF at all, since they are part of the 7K too?

[El Guapo]

So what? since she tried and it didnt work perfectly that means no one should ever try, they should just accept the status-quo and move on? Just let slavery ensue for the rest of time because it might be a hard thing to break down?

That seems to be the attitude among many around here that because she hasn't completely ended a centuries old practice in about 6 months or so she never should have tried it.

[MoIaF]

PLEASE LET'S STAY ON TOPIC!

IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE COULD DISCUSS OTHER EXAMPLES OTHER THAN DANY.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

A sham trial is better than no trial. And if she doesn't learn how to fairly judge people, then she will never become a good ruler.

There are some problems with this assumption. Dany initially conquered Meereen to free slaves and get food she wasn't planning to rule Meereen so why should she give a trial to people she has no intention of ruling. She is basically just at war with them. Keep in mind I am not saying the 163 massacre was a good thing, I am just saying Dany has no reason to give her enemies at war a trial.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

That seems to be the attitude among many around here that because she hasn't completely ended a centuries old practice in about 6 months or so she never should have tried it.

:cheers: :agree:

[ovis alba]

That seems to be the attitude among many around here that because she hasn't completely ended a centuries old practice in about 6 months or so she never should have tried it.

So pointing out reasons why she failed with what she was initially trying to do, is saying she shouldn't have tried?

[sj4iy]

There are some problems with this assumption. Dany initially conquered Meereen to free slaves and get food she wasn't planning to rule Meereen so why should she give a trial to people she has no intention of ruling. She is basically just at war with them. Keep in mind I am not saying the 163 massacre was a good thing, I am just saying Dany has no reason to give her enemies at war a trial.

...except for the fact that there are conventions about prisoners of War, even in the world of Westeros and Essos. She had already conquered them, this wasn't the same as killing your enemy...it was slaughtering your prisoners.

[Mad Monkey]

Those are good points, but I think the goal was to pick them randomly, just like they took 163 random kids. She is making a statement.

I get that, but I think it's a mistake to use their own tactics against them like this. Poetically it feels good but it's so risky that it's almost not worth it. It's kind of like if, as poetic justice, Jaime tried to kill Aerys by setting off wildfire in the Red Keep. It would be poetic to have him killed by the weapon he tried to use to wipe out an entire city but the end result would have been disastrous for everyone, not just the Mad King. Similarly, Dany's actions while entering Meereen were poetic but they were risky.

The trials would have been worth it. Not because she could have really given perfect due process but because she needed to know how Meereen worked in order to rule it and this was the best way. Instead she threw away her best opportunity to root out and destroy her most vicious enemies and find and empower potential allies among the nobility. It's quite possible -- perhaps even likely -- that some of those who were crucified were chosen because they were out of favor with the ruling elite. That is, they may have died because they objected to the unnecessary murder of so many children on pragmatic grounds (why alienate a rampaging horde at your gates like that?) or because they advocated bending the knee. Some of them might have even been abolitionists though I'll admit it's not very likely.

Mereen and astapor are 2 completely different cities, Or should Winterfell get upset when Dorne is under attack?

Meereen and Astapor are near each other geographically and both ruled by Ghiscari. It's very likely that Meereenese nobles have relatives and friends in Astapor. You might say, "should Casterly Rock get upset if someone burns down Lannisport?"

That's the thing about justice and vengeance though. You never get a blank slate. History and back story are always important. For example, if you look at the evidence cold it doesn't make too much sense to arrest Tyrion for killing Joffrey. Why would he just be standing there holding the poisoned goblet if he was guilty? He would be the first and only suspect. But you have to take into account all of the bad blood between Tyrion and Joff and between Tyrion and Tywin and Cersei. This trial was less about Tyrion's guilt and innocence and all the bad blood that Tyrion had with his accusers. Pycelle's testimony in the books was more about Tyrion's mistreatment of him (taking his poisons) and was likely motivated by the fact that he had Pycelle locked up. That shouldn't matter but it does.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Right...that's why Dorne came to WF's aide when WF was under attack from the ironborn right? in fact why would the ironborn attack WF at all, since they are part of the 7K too?

You were talking about whether or not they should be upset. I answered that. It is made quite clear in the books that Dorne doesn't have the population to support any kind of offensive military operations.

So because it didn't work very well, no one should try? (paraphrased)

That is not what anyone is saying at all. She tried three different methods. None of them end slavery. All were doomed to increase the suffering of everyone. Killing the random 163 out of retribution achieves nothing.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Dany is confusing punishing her enemies with dispensing justice. All she knows is that "the Wise Masters crucified those children." She has no idea if the decision was unanimous, divided, or maybe even unilateral. For all she knows, she was crucifying people who were uninvolved or even opposed.

The doctrine of "collective guilt/punishment" was something employed by Nazi invaders to pacify the population of occupied countries. For every Nazi killed by the Polish resistance, up to 400 Poles were executed in retribution. During the so-called "Civil War," Federal troops, to punish the South for the 6% of its citizenry who actually owned slaves, would obliterate entire towns and cities, burning whatever they could not plunder, raping women and children, ransoming the lives of prisoners against guerrilla warfare, and leaving survivors destitute. Sound familiar, "Breaker of Chains"?

[MoIaF]

Dany is confusing punishing her enemies with dispensing justice. All she knows is that "the Wise Masters crucified those children." She has no idea if the decision was unanimous, divided, or maybe even unilateral. For all she knows, she was crucifying people who were uninvolved or even opposed.

The doctrine of "collective guilt/punishment" was something employed by Nazi invaders to pacify the population of occupied countries. For every Nazi killed by the Polish resistance, up to 400 Poles were executed in retribution. During the so-called "Civil War," Federal troops, to punish the South for the 6% of its citizenry who actually owned slaves, would obliterate entire towns and cities, burning whatever they could not plunder, raping women and children, ransoming the lives of prisoners against guerrilla warfare, and leaving survivors destitute. Sound familiar, "Breaker of Chains"?

I was wondering when someone would bring up the Nazi's. I mean without a fault almost all topics discussing Dany the Nazi's have to come up.

Please don't discuss the Nazi, nothing compares to what they did.

This is a discussion of justice and vengeance in the world of ASOIAF. Let's try and stick to that.

[Cas Stark]

I was wondering when someone would bring up the Nazi's. I mean without a fault almost all topics discussing Dany the Nazi's have to come up.

Please don't discuss the Nazi, nothing compares to what they did.

This is a discussion of justice and vengeance in the world of ASOIAF. Let's try and stick to that.

It's a fair point, most "good guys" don't employ collective punishment on whole populations or classes, that's what "bad guys" do, nor is collective punishment of random people usually ever considered any kind of justice.

[MoIaF]

It's a fair point, most "good guys" don't employ collective punishment on whole populations or classes, that's what "bad guys" do, nor is collective punishment of random people usually ever considered any kind of justice.

No, it's NEVER a fair point to bring up the Nazi in comparison to anything. It is highly disrespectful; and it downplays the atrocities committed by the Nazi to compare them to a fictional character. And if you can't see that then I have nothing further to say to you.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No, it's NEVER a fair point to bring up the Nazi in comparison to anything. It is highly disrespectful; and it downplays the atrocities committed by the Nazi to compare them to a fictional character. And if you can't see that then I have nothing further to say to you.

Well said girl! There is nothing in this work of fiction that compares to the real life Nazi's even in the slightest and I consider it abhorrent that people bring it up so much.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

No, it's NEVER a fair point to bring up the Nazi in comparison to anything. It is highly disrespectful; and it downplays the atrocities committed by the Nazi to compare them to a fictional character. And if you can't see that then I have nothing further to say to you.

Exactly, I find it very disrespectful for someone as wicked as Hitler to be compared to a fictional character, and I stay away from threads such as those.

[coatzin]

No it really isn't. As discussed already above Jon is searching for justice as ell as revenge. The lines are very blurred and he even address the need for vengeance in his speech to the other men of the NM.

Yes it is, Jon wants revenge against those deserters who killed Mormont... the punishment for a deserter of the Nights watch is death. Good for him that those two elements converge.

In the case of Dany I agree that those GM deserve some punishment and that she as a ruler can decide which method to use... but she chooses 163 random GM... that's not justice, maybe not even revenge, against who?... an entire class of people?

Jon can hide his revenge as justice... Dany can hide her cruelty as revenge at most

[MoIaF]

Yes it is, Jon wants revenge against those deserters who killed Mormont... the punishment for a deserter of the Nights watch is death. Good for him that those two elements converge.

In the case of Dany I agree that those GM deserve some punishment and that she as a ruler can decide which method to use... but she chooses 163 random GM... that's not justice, maybe not even revenge, against who?... an entire class of people?

Jon can hide his revenge as justice[/b\... Dany can hide her cruelty as revenge at most

The first bolded part is a answered by the second.

As for Dany, she believed what she did was justice, was it tinged with revenges, yes but it doesn't take away from her wanting to seek justice for those children.