The Wisdom of Catelyn Tully

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I. Catelyn recognizes the real threat before any other character-That is simply silly.

II. Catelyn wanted Ned to stay in Winterfell-You said the magic word, after Bran's fault.

III. Catelyn surmises that Jaime threw Bran out of the window on little evidence-I always thought that she suspected a Lannister.

IV. Catelyn and the oarsmen-That is also simply silly.

V. Catelyn on Varys- She was right but who really trust Varys?

VI. The arrest - Tyrion outwitted-Yes very clever, when your family is sourounded is very smart to take hostage without any good reason the enemy's brother giving them the excuse to atact your family.

VII. Catelyn on female power-Yet another silly point.

VIII. Catelyn and Lysa-You mean the same Lysa who outsmaterd her and manipulate her?

IX. Tyrion's trial by combat-Yet she was the one who arrested Tyrion and drove him to her sister's house endangered her and her child.

X. Catelyn handling her son's position-How is that exeptionaly smart?

XI. Catelyn sees through Cersei's ruse-Again how is that exeptionaly smart?

XII. Surrender is not an option-Because there are many people who wouldn't had unserstood this and she was the only one who did.

XIII. Bannermen are not your friends- Yes and? Who doesn't know that? 15 yo Robb?

XIV. Knowing who is best fitted to a job-Putting Bolton, who Ned never trusted, in a seat of power is really smart.

XV. "Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens"-That is just silly.

XVI. Wars aren't won in one battle-Because everyone else believes that the war is based on one battle.

XVII. Peace when war is futile-Again because everyone would go to war when they have the opportunity of peace.

XVIII. Sending Theon and Balon's intention-Again, because everyone believe that Balon can be trusted.

XIX. The real enemy-Yet again, who didn't knew who the real enemy was?

XX. Calling a council to decide the succession-And this in unique how exactly?

XXI. There is no point in dying for the dead-Wait, isn't that what she and her son are doing? Dying for dead Ned?

XXII. Catelyn tries to prevent Edmure's mistake- So?

XXIII. The wolves-Fail. Simply that. We have children who warg wolves and Cat knows better about them?

XXIV. A true King-Because everyone else think otherwise.

XXV. Sometimes it is best to do nothing-So?

XXVI. Knowing when to bend the knee-How about bending the knee in the beginning?

XXVII. Avoding slights-THAT is simply bs. She couldn't forget a slight for 15 years.

XXVIII. Naming a bastard as heir-Yet Robb knew better. No Northman would ever follow a nobody who is not one of them in every aspect. Thankfully he didn't listen to Cat's biased stupidity of that matter.

XXIX. Claiming guest right-Cat isn't the only one who knows about the guest right.

XXX. Trying to save a life-That was very smart indeed, because everyone when they had the chance to win would let their most valuable enemy go.

Cat is not stupid but she is not a prodigy either she is a mediocre.

Problem with Cat is the mistakes she made stick out more

:agree:

[Cat Alayne]

Of course she did - but her first priority was always to ensure the safety of the family(which is understandable - and I do not blame her for it). Her advice to call for peace - not very good if you want to gain independence for the North. All I am saying is her first priority was never to win, it was always to survive. Not a risk taker and hence a poor commander if you want to win the Game of Thrones.

As for dicey decisions - yes she was forced into a few like kidnapping Tyrion, but others were purely voluntary - going into the twins to talk to Frey. That man is treasonous and everyone knows it. Robb was a young commander barely holding his troops together, his father a captive and you decide to enter all alone into a potential enemy castle?? Robb's campaign could have ended there itself had Frey decided to take Catelyn captive. Fortunately that was a dicey decision that turned out well for her since Frey was not interested in taking her captive. Though I cant help but wonder what terms would have been agreed upon if Robb had sent in a more respected/scary person - like the BlackFish.

no-ones arguing that she wanted to win the game of thrones, we are just saying she had very good political insight. She used her intelligence to get her own means, as does every character in the series.

Going to the twins and talking to frey- Frey was her father's bannermen and although he wasn't loyal she knew he would have to side with somebody and she went to make arrangements. What was there other option? wading across the river on horse back? The freys are rich for a reason, they posses the only path across the green fork for a long while. Catelyn did extremely well.

I think she comes across as self important in many of her conversations and thoughts, probably simply because she's highborn and it's GRRM's amazing writing for the Cat chapters. I mean, it is accurate, but that type of attitude grates on me.

Anyway, as far as Petyr, Cat knew him, but doesn't "know" him. She knows what KL is and Petyr has been there for years in the think of things. It's naive to believe he is still that same doting boy with a crush on her. She knows how he made his way up from almost nothing and that absolutely doesn't happen in their world by being nice and friendly. If she took anything he said with at least a little grain of salt, things may have been different. It's weird that she puts so much faith in him, but then broke their agreement and took Tyrion the one time she goes against anything Petyr told her or that they agreed upon.

I think catelyn posseses a significantly smaller amount of self importance than a lot of the other highborn POV characters. You'll have to provide examples of her excessive self-importance. Yeah all highborns are going to be a bit self-important, but Catelyn is also kind, patient, humble and empathetic. She's the opposite of selfish really.

Again with Petyr I think the crux of the matter is that it is logical to believe he wouldn't do anything of that magnitude. I mean Catelyn's not naive about thinking he's the same person he was:

“I knew he would rise high,” Catelyn said. “He was always clever, even as a boy, but it is one thing to be clever and another to be wise. I wonder what the years have done to him.”

“I’ve angered you, my lady. That was never my intent.” He looked contrite. The look brought back vivid memories for Catelyn. He had been a sly child, but after his mischiefs he always looked contrite; it was a gift he had. The years had not changed him much. Petyr had been a small boy, and he had grown into a small man, an inch or two shorter than Catelyn, slender and quick, with the sharp features she remembered and the same laughing grey-green eyes. He had a little pointed chin beard now, and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty. They went well with the silver mockingbird that fastened his cloak. Even as a child, he had always loved his silver.

“Lord Varys knows everything... except why you are here.” He lifted an eyebrow. “Why are you here?”

“A wife is allowed to yearn for her husband, and if a mother needs her daughters close, who can tell her no?”

Littlefinger laughed. “Oh, very good, my lady, but please don’t expect me to believe that. I know you too well. What were the Tully words again?”

Her throat was dry. “Family, Duty, Honor, “ she recited stiffly. He did know her too well.

Its not like she went to King's Landing blindly trusting him.

[The Sleeper]

1. Were it in my power, I'd give you a raise.

2. And a congratulatory fruit basket

3. or a subscription to a "steak of the month" club, if that's your preference.

The reasons you list are exactly why Cat was the character I immediately took to: she really is set up as a, if not the, voice of reason, for a good portion of her time in the story.

It doesn't matter that some of her decisions didn't pan out beneficially in hindsight. I think the point stands that the way she approaches problems, weighs options, and generally thinks through solutions is extremely reasonable. Even some decisions that have an emotional base that are controversial-- like Jaimegate-- are actually thought through really rationally by Cat. I think it's easy to see a decision that became a mistake in hindsight as having been a "stupid choice," but the way she goes about making these decisions is anything but stupid. She's a flexible thinker, she's quick to see an opportunity or implication, and she's not afraid to re-evaluate her premises when new information presents itself.

100% agreed. Not just reason. The voice of common sense and like Cassandra, nobody listens to her.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I don't really agree with it all, but nice thread anyway. IMO she has some intuition, she's clearly a smart woman sometimes etc. So yeah, she's not Balon-dumb. But then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day...

The problem is she thinks she can act alone without thinking the long term consequences through, or without having all the information necessary to act. Arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime were terrible decisions IMO. The way she sees Edmure also shows a poor character judgment.

Robb made stupid things too, but he was younger.

[Mulled Wino]

I think catelyn posseses a significantly smaller amount of self importance than a lot of the other highborn POV characters. You'll have to provide examples of her excessive self-importance. Yeah all highborns are going to be a bit self-important, but Catelyn is also kind, patient, humble and empathetic. She's the opposite of selfish really.

Again with Petyr I think the crux of the matter is that it is logical to believe he wouldn't do anything of that magnitude. I mean Catelyn's not naive about thinking he's the same person he was:

Its not like she went to King's Landing blindly trusting him.

She definitely has less than say a Selsye but more than an Arya, lol. It's the way her conversations and internal dialogue come across. I don't have a book on me right now, but I have posted examples in the past.

She went to kings landing blindly trusting him yes. Tyrion should have shattered that in an instant at bare minimum on the road, but her actions in the book show she believe Petry over all, even when strong contrary evidence was presented.

[Cat Alayne]

I. Catelyn recognizes the real threat before any other character-That is simply silly.

II. Catelyn wanted Ned to stay in Winterfell-You said the magic word, after Bran's fault.

III. Catelyn surmises that Jaime threw Bran out of the window on little evidence-I always thought that she suspected a Lannister.

IV. Catelyn and the oarsmen-That is also simply silly.

V. Catelyn on Varys- She was right but who really trust Varys?

VI. The arrest - Tyrion outwitted-Yes very clever, when your family is sourounded is very smart to take hostage without any good reason the enemy's brother giving them the excuse to atact your family.

VII. Catelyn on female power-Yet another silly point.

VIII. Catelyn and Lysa-You mean the same Lysa who outsmaterd her and manipulate her?

IX. Tyrion's trial by combat-Yet she was the one who arrested Tyrion and drove him to her sister's house endangered her and her child.

X. Catelyn handling her son's position-How is that exeptionaly smart?

XI. Catelyn sees through Cersei's ruse-Again how is that exeptionaly smart?

XII. Surrender is not an option-Because there are many people who wouldn't had unserstood this and she was the only one who did.

XIII. Bannermen are not your friends- Yes and? Who doesn't know that? 15 yo Robb?

XIV. Knowing who is best fitted to a job-Putting Bolton, who Ned never trusted, in a seat of power is really smart.

XV. "Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens"-That is just silly.

XVI. Wars aren't won in one battle-Because everyone else believes that the war is based on one battle.

XVII. Peace when war is futile-Again because everyone would go to war when they have the opportunity of peace.

XVIII. Sending Theon and Balon's intention-Again, because everyone believe that Balon can be trusted.

XIX. The real enemy-Yet again, who didn't knew who the real enemy was?

XX. Calling a council to decide the succession-And this in unique how exactly?

XXI. There is no point in dying for the dead-Wait, isn't that what she and her son are doing? Dying for dead Ned?

XXII. Catelyn tries to prevent Edmure's mistake- So?

XXIII. The wolves-Fail. Simply that. We have children who warg wolves and Cat knows better about them?

XXIV. A true King-Because everyone else think otherwise.

XXV. Sometimes it is best to do nothing-So?

XXVI. Knowing when to bend the knee-How about bending the knee in the beginning?

XXVII. Avoding slights-THAT is simply bs. She couldn't forget a slight for 15 years.

XXVIII. Naming a bastard as heir-Yet Robb knew better. No Northman would ever follow a nobody who is not one of them in every aspect. Thankfully he didn't listen to Cat's biased stupidity of that matter.

XXIX. Claiming guest right-Cat isn't the only one who knows about the guest right.

XXX. Trying to save a life-That was very smart indeed, because everyone when they had the chance to win would let their most valuable enemy go.

Cat is not stupid but she is not a prodigy either she is a mediocre.

:agree:

Jon obsessed Catelyn bashers not welcome here.

I. How is it silly? She was wary of a very real threat when everyone else dismissed them as old wives tales.

II. In reality urging Ned to go shows her political brain, Sansa would be queen one day, she wants advance her house's legacy and position

III. “My sister Lysa believes the Lannisters murdered her husband, Lord Arryn, the Hand of the King,” Catelyn told them. “It comes to me that Jaime Lannister did not join the hunt the day Bran fell. He remained here in the castle.” The room was deathly quiet. “I do not think Bran fell from that tower,” she said into the stillness. “I think he was thrown.”

IV. It shows she understands people's nature and is not naive. She is a streets smart, pragmatic type.

V. They were urging her not to worry about him, when in reality we know he is a definate cause for worry.

VI. It was an intelligent decision, read the previous entries in this thread.

VII. She possesed an progressive view on women, which makes her incredibly wise.

VIII. If you are suggesting Catelyn is less intelligent and wise than Lysa that reflects on you more than anything.

IX. She came to the vale for evidence, her sister (gone mad) as lady of the vale, forced the trial. Catelyn advised against it at every turn but she was powerless. Its not Catelyn's fault her sister was mad.

X. Because she was able to put her own emotions aside so as to not damage her sons perception amongst his bannermen, something incredibly wise. She parents him in a way that is encouraging, yet honest and tough so that he might quickly make the transition from boy to man.

XI. Display's Catelyn's understanding of the political game.

XII. See above.

XIII. Wise, intelligent advice.

XIV. Roose Bolton was the best man to intimidate the Lannisters! They needed someone cold and cunning for that not greatjon fucking umber.

XV. Your a fool.

XVI. She was saying that they shouldn't celebrate because one victory does not make them victors, she is looking at the bigger picture of the war.

XVII. WHAT POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE OTHER THAN YOU HATE CATELYN!? The war was futile!? It was induced by vengeance.

XVIII. CLEARLY OR ELSE ROBB WOULDN"T HAVE SENT HIM?!

XIX.

XX. Perhaps because no other POV character brought it up?

XXI. She's the one who wants to fight for the living!

XXII. wat

XXIII. Yes! She constantly advises Robb to keep Greywind by his side as they have a deep connection, but Robb thinks nothing of it.

XXIV.

XXV. read title: Display of the wisdom fo Catelyn Tully.

XXVI. She advised for a peace?

XXVII. Thats not even the point! She was trying to avoid insulting Frey. Jon Snow Bias rearing its ugly head again.

XXVIII. Yeah there are these books series called A song of ice and fire and in them a fucking war started because someone legitimized a bastard. Cat's right here too im afraid.

XXIX. Only Cat brought it up though.

XXX. Again wat.

She's Not mediocre, she is very intelligent. You are biased and hypercritical.

[butterbumps!]

She definitely has less than say a Selsye but more than an Arya, lol. It's the way her conversations and internal dialogue come across. I don't have a book on me right now, but I have posted examples in the past.

She went to kings landing blindly trusting him yes. Tyrion should have shattered that in an instant at bare minimum on the road, but her actions in the book show she believe Petry over all, even when strong contrary evidence was presented.

Here's the problem with LF.

I agree that his lie was really thin. There's the issue that the lie played upon the information she already had and deduced: that Cersei killed Jon Arryn, and Jaime pushed Bran, so a second attempt on Bran's life made by the 3rd Lannister sibling would seem to make sense. It gives the lie plausibility.

But the crux of the issue is that she can't figure out any reason LF would want to lie to her. Not even necessarily that she trusts him, but really, it makes no sense from her perspective what motivation LF would have or what he'd gain from this. And that's LF's whole racket-- do things that appear to go against his interests, because no one really understands how LF thinks yet, and what his "interests" really are.

This is one of the places where Cat's rationality really got the best of her-- LF's ploys are inherently irrational. The fact she couldn't find a rational reason why he'd lie is what trips her up.

[Cat Alayne]

She definitely has less than say a Selsye but more than an Arya, lol. It's the way her conversations and internal dialogue come across. I don't have a book on me right now, but I have posted examples in the past.

She went to kings landing blindly trusting him yes. Tyrion should have shattered that in an instant at bare minimum on the road, but her actions in the book show she believe Petry over all, even when strong contrary evidence was presented.

Of course a thirty somthing great lady of two great noble houses is going to have more self confidence than her outcast little daughter. She talks to mya of being brave because she is a tully-stark, but every main character draws upon their house for strength, Arya moreso than cat. If she comes across as sharp, like when interacting with her brother, I think intense grief combined with familiarity are the cause of this.

My quotes show that she didn't go in blindly trusting him. And she had every reason to trust littlefinger over tyrion. Strong contrary evidence was not provided until Jaime's cell scene, where he provides the same sequence of events as tyrion, which causes her to doubt her judgments

[Mladen]

First, congrats to OP on very through analysis of Catelyn's moves. It was a breeze of fresh air to have such wonderful Cat thread. TBH, haven't seen the thread this good about Cat, since Catnapping...

snip

Haven't your mothers thought you not to feed the trolls? :)

At the end, I would have to agree with Kittykatknitts who once said that Cat's biggest mistake was that she gave her power to Robb...

[Cat Alayne]

Haven't your mothers thought you not to feed the trolls? :)

At the end, I would have to agree with Kittykatknitts who once said that Cat's biggest mistake was that she gave her power to Robb...

There's so much Cat hate i'm blinded to what is trolling and what is not. :crying: :crying: :crying:

[The Sleeper]

Here's the problem with LF.

I agree that his lie was really thin. There's the issue that the lie played upon the information she already had and deduced: that Cersei killed Jon Arryn, and Jaime pushed Bran, so a second attempt on Bran's life made by the 3rd Lannister sibling would seem to make sense. It gives the lie plausibility.

But the crux of the issue is that she can't figure out any reason LF would want to lie to her. Not even necessarily that she trusts him, but really, it makes no sense from her perspective what motivation LF would have or what he'd gain from this. And that's LF's whole racket-- do things that appear to go against his interests, because no one really understands how LF thinks yet, and what his "interests" really are.

This is one of the places where Cat's rationality really got the best of her-- LF's ploys are inherently irrational. The fact she couldn't find a rational reason why he'd lie is what trips her up.

True enough. At that point in time she had no reason to believe that he was even involved in the whole deal. But her previous realtionship still played a part. She would have been a lot more sceptical, had the information come from Varys. Even if it fit what she knew, she would've questioned his motives for telling her.

The part I disagree with is that LF's plans are irrational. I consider the whole deal about making moves against his interest to obfuscate his motivations to be self-aggrandizing bulshit. What he does to obfuscate his motivations and intentions is spout crap of this nature and take shots in the dark. In this particular instant he couldn't tell them the truth. Ned would never believe that Robert ordered a hit on his son and would have confornted him about it. He didn't know the truth, which meant it was an unpredictable outcome. He couldn't stay silent, because they would find out eventually that the dagger had at some point had been his. He also could not point to Jaime or Cersei because if it got to them that he was pointing fingers at them they'd kill him out of hand. Tyrion on the other hand had the great benefit of being far less scary than his siblings on the surface and he also had the great benefit of not being actually there.

[David Selig]

1. Were it in my power, I'd give you a raise.

2. And a congratulatory fruit basket

3. or a subscription to a "steak of the month" club, if that's your preference.

The reasons you list are exactly why Cat was the character I immediately took to: she really is set up as a, if not the, voice of reason, for a good portion of her time in the story.

It doesn't matter that some of her decisions didn't pan out beneficially in hindsight. I think the point stands that the way she approaches problems, weighs options, and generally thinks through solutions is extremely reasonable. Even some decisions that have an emotional base that are controversial-- like Jaimegate-- are actually thought through really rationally by Cat. I think it's easy to see a decision that became a mistake in hindsight as having been a "stupid choice," but the way she goes about making these decisions is anything but stupid. She's a flexible thinker, she's quick to see an opportunity or implication, and she's not afraid to re-evaluate her premises when new information presents itself.

Yeah, this is why it really bugs me when people call her "too emotional", "irrational" and stuff like that. I just don't see it in the text at all. She made mistakes, but she approaches issues in a rational manner pretty much all the time.

What makes it more baffling is that most other main characters are clearly more irrational and emotional in their approach yet most don't get called out for it even half as much.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Jon obsessed Catelyn bashers not welcome here. And how exactly you can ensure that?

I. How is it silly? She was wary of a very real threat when everyone else dismissed them as old wives tales. Did she had any proof about it? No because she couldn't have anything.

II. In reality urging Ned to go shows her political brain, Sansa would be queen one day, she wants advance her house's legacy and position Let me see "Hey my sis told me that the Lannisters killed her husband and is the enemy. What should I do? I know :idea: Lets give them my daughters! I don't see how this could go wrong!"

III. “My sister Lysa believes the Lannisters murdered her husband, Lord Arryn, the Hand of the King,” Catelyn told them. “It comes to me that Jaime Lannister did not join the hunt the day Bran fell. He remained here in the castle.” The room was deathly quiet. “I do not think Bran fell from that tower,” she said into the stillness. “I think he was thrown.” Did she had any actual proofs? No.

IV. It shows she understands people's nature and is not naive. She is a streets smart, pragmatic type. Paying someone and maybe tip them makes you smart?

V. They were urging her not to worry about him, when in reality we know he is a definate cause for worry. Again. Who would trust Varys? The fact that she didn't trusted him doesn't make her exceptionally smart it makes her cautious.

VI. It was an intelligent decision, read the previous entries in this thread. I have and I partially disagree.

VII. She possesed an progressive view on women, which makes her incredibly wise. No, it makes her simply smart not incredibly smart.

VIII. If you are suggesting Catelyn is less intelligent and wise than Lysa that reflects on you more than anything. Well, Cat was easily manipulated by Lysa that speaks for itself.

IX. She came to the vale for evidence, her sister (gone mad) as lady of the vale, forced the trial. Catelyn advised against it at every turn but she was powerless. Its not Catelyn's fault her sister was mad. Why she went to Vale in the first place? It's Cats fault that she endangered her sister and her nephew.

X. Because she was able to put her own emotions aside so as to not damage her sons perception amongst his bannermen, something incredibly wise. She parents him in a way that is encouraging, yet honest and tough so that he might quickly make the transition from boy to man. Again, that makes her logical not exceptionally smart.

XI. Display's Catelyn's understanding of the political game. Becasue she is the only who could understand it.

XII. See above. No

XIII. Wise, intelligent advice. Why should Edmure take her advice? He was the Lord and he could do anything he wanted. Does her advice were wrong no. But since Edmure didn't asked her why he should care?

XIV. Roose Bolton was the best man to intimidate the Lannisters! They needed someone cold and cunning for that not greatjon fucking umber. Yet Roose was the one man Ned never trusted. I am pretty sure that Ned knew better.

XV. Your a fool. Coming from a Catstan it's a compliment so THANK YOU! :cheers:

XVI. She was saying that they shouldn't celebrate because one victory does not make them victors, she is looking at the bigger picture of the war. Yet she isn't the only one.

XVII. WHAT POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE OTHER THAN YOU HATE CATELYN!? The war was futile!? It was induced by vengeance. Yes it was futile at this point. Bend the knee and strike back later.

XVIII. CLEARLY OR ELSE ROBB WOULDN"T HAVE SENT HIM?! You forget that Robb was 15-16. Cat is smarter than a teen that is a cause to celebrate!

XIX.

XX. Perhaps because no other POV character brought it up? PoV is the magic word

XXI. She's the one who wants to fight for the living! Funny how when she did it she was endangering her daughters more and more and more

XXII. wat What I wrote. It was Edmure's choice not hers.

XXIII. Yes! She constantly advises Robb to keep Greywind by his side as they have a deep connection, but Robb thinks nothing of it. Again this is silly. Bran, Jon and Arya know about their wolves and what they mean Cat on the other hand couldn't even imagine it.

XXIV.

XXV. read title: Display of the wisdom fo Catelyn Tully. Yes and that was stupidity not wisdom because she wasn't able to follow her own advices.

XXVI. She advised for a peace? Yet again ti could have be done from the beginning not during the war.

XXVII. Thats not even the point! She was trying to avoid insulting Frey. Jon Snow Bias rearing its ugly head again. The op states that she could forget a slight which is wrong simple as that.

XXVIII. Yeah there are these books series called A song of ice and fire and in them a fucking war started because someone legitimized a bastard. Cat's right here too im afraid. That is simply :bs: and you know it. Tom, Jof and Myr were not consondered bastards but trueborns. The Vale cousins would never been accepted at the North and Jon was the only one who would. Like it or not Cat was talking bs.

XXIX. Only Cat brought it up though. Maybe because it's Cat's PoV?

XXX. Again wat. She tried to take a hostage in the middle of a massacre because in her own deranged mind anyone who had the opportunity to win would had stopped at anything. At least her excuse was the fact that she was insane at the moment.

She's Not mediocre, she is very intelligent. You are biased and hypercritical. Now that is hysterical! THANK YOU! I needed a good laught. :lmao: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :lmao:

Haven't your mothers thought you not to feed the trolls?

Oh no dear dont' confuse it, it's not trolling it's pure hate.

There's so much Cat hate i'm blinded to what is trolling and what is not.

You didn't, it's hate not trolling.

[butterbumps!]

True enough. At that point in time she had no reason to believe that he was even involved in the whole deal. But her previous realtionship still played a part. She would have been a lot more sceptical, had the information come from Varys. Even if it fit what she knew, she would've questioned his motives for telling her.

The part I disagree with is that LF's plans are irrational. I consider the whole deal about making moves against his interest to obfuscate his motivations to be self-aggrandizing bulshit. What he does to obfuscate his motivations and intentions is spout crap of this nature and take shots in the dark. In this particular instant he couldn't tell them the truth. Ned would never believe that Robert ordered a hit on his son and would have confornted him about it. He didn't know the truth, which meant it was an unpredictable outcome. He couldn't stay silent, because they would find out eventually that the dagger had at some point had been his. He also could not point to Jaime or Cersei because if it got to them that he was pointing fingers at them they'd kill him out of hand. Tyrion on the other hand had the great benefit of being far less scary than his siblings on the surface and he also had the great benefit of not being actually there.

Oh, I definitely agree that her past with LF played a role in this. But I don't think it was blind trust so much as how that past made it seem even more illogical that he'd have something to gain by lying about this.

I think the thing about the nature of LF's plans is that once you locate his interest as fomenting chaos, his moves become logical. But the fact that he's working toward a chaotic outcome is something I'd consider "irrational," both in terms of the purposeful catalysis of confusion and disorder, as well as how new of a goal this is within the game, which makes it that much harder to identify, as it goes against the typical gains players tend to seek. No one would really have reason to anticipate that someone would actually want such a thing-- it seemingly makes no sense.

I agree with your view of LF's thought process, though, once the dagger's presented. What makes me call this "irrational" in a more direct sense is that Joffrey sent the catspaw as a completely irrational act that wasn't part of any grand scheme or strategy, but by pure happenstance played on the existing tensions, seemingly fitting into what was shaping up as a very purposeful move by the Lannisters against the Starks/ Arryns. When you think about it, the independent, impulsive action of a cruel child set all these other political pieces into motion.

So LF's reacting to a completely irrational act to cover his tracks on this. A rational mind would tend to look for order in the seeming chaos. I think that's where Cat gets tripped up. The idea that the catspaw was some completely unconnected, illogical fluke isn't what a rational person would jump to, especially not when this event occurs adjacently to other events that can be easily traced to what seems like an overall conspiracy. In Cat's view, everything must have a logical reason, and people behave according to their best interests. LF embraces the irrational, and formulates the lie, not knowing how it will play out exactly, not needing to know how actually sent the dagger. But Cat looks for the logic in both the sending of the dagger and in LF's testimony, and comes to the wrong conclusion about both.

[The Sleeper]

Oh, I definitely agree that her past with LF played a role in this. But I don't think it was blind trust so much as how that past made it seem even more illogical that he'd have something to gain by lying about this.

I think the thing about the nature of LF's plans is that once you locate his interest as fomenting chaos, his moves become logical. But the fact that he's working toward a chaotic outcome is something I'd consider "irrational," both in terms of the purposeful catalysis of confusion and disorder, as well as how new of a goal this is within the game, which makes it that much harder to identify, as it goes against the typical gains players tend to seek. No one would really have reason to anticipate that someone would actually want such a thing-- it seemingly makes no sense.

I agree with your view of LF's thought process, though, once the dagger's presented. What makes me call this "irrational" in a more direct sense is that Joffrey sent the catspaw as a completely irrational act that wasn't part of any grand scheme or strategy, but by pure happenstance played on the existing tensions, seemingly fitting into what was shaping up as a very purposeful move by the Lannisters against the Starks/ Arryns. When you think about it, the independent, impulsive action of a cruel child set all these other political pieces into motion.

So LF's reacting to a completely irrational act to cover his tracks on this. A rational mind would tend to look for order in the seeming chaos. I think that's where Cat gets tripped up. The idea that the catspaw was some completely unconnected, illogical fluke isn't what a rational person would jump to, especially not when this event occurs adjacently to other events that can be easily traced to what seems like an overall conspiracy. In Cat's view, everything must have a logical reason, and people behave according to their best interests. LF embraces the irrational, and formulates the lie, not knowing how it will play out exactly, not needing to know how actually sent the dagger. But Cat looks for the logic in both the sending of the dagger and in LF's testimony, and comes to the wrong conclusion about both.

I would like to discuss this furhter, but this is not the thread for it. Suffice to say chaos is the time of the opportunist, but I don't believe that LF formented anything, only tried to cover up a murder.

As to Cat, she simply did not have enough information. She did realise eventually that there was more to the story, but by then she had bigger things to worry about. The thing about Tyrion is that capturing him or doing nothing both carried their risks and had their benefits. The true mistake in that whole sorry affair was losing him, which of course Cat tried to prevent.

And here again Cat gets screwed by family.

[butterbumps!]

I would like to discuss this furhter, but this is not the thread for it. Suffice to say chaos is the time of the opportunist, but I don't believe that LF formented anything, only tried to cover up a murder.

As to Cat, she simply did not have enough information. She did realise eventually that there was more to the story, but by then she had bigger things to worry about. The thing about Tyrion is that capturing him or doing nothing both carried their risks and had their benefits. The true mistake in that whole sorry affair was losing him, which of course Cat tried to prevent.

And here again Cat gets screwed by family.

Sure, we can take the LF thing elsewhere. Just for the record, though, I do agree he's being an opportunist. Both in terms of covering his ass, as well as pointing a finger at another Lannister sibling, which inevitably plays to the previous discord he's sown in terms of Lysa's letter blaming Cersei for Jon Arryn. Of course he didn't anticipate the dagger when he initially started undermining the nobles, but siezed this unconnected act and spun it in his favor. LF knows how to manage the irrational and chaotic.

And yea, Cat didn't have enough info. But what I was trying to point to is that the way her mind tends to work is to try to see order in chaos, and it's something that can cut both ways, especially in a context where not everyone is operating logically. The dagger is a prime example. Knowing the historic tension with the Lannisters, and learning from Lysa that Cersei killed Jon Arryn puts her hackles of distrust up. Then Bran falls. But, ironically, it's only after the dagger is sent at Bran, the one thing not part of a conspiracy, that inspires Cat to see this as a grand conspiracy. It's because of the dagger she correctly deduces that it was Jaime who pushed Bran, but incorrectly assumes the dagger was meant to keep Bran from exposing the secret that got him pushed in the first place.

So that was really the point I was going for-- that she automatically looks for patterns and a logic in events and actions, and as it pertains, this is why she assumes the dagger was sent by a Lannister as a conspiracy, and why she ends up believing LF's testimony, as she can see no logical reason for it or what he'd gain by lying.

[Batbob45]

When Cat saw the war of words between baratheon Bro and heard Renly talking about Stannis' family,She must of thought that Renly was an idiot for saying crap like that

[HexMachina]

When Cat saw the war of words between baratheon Bro and heard Renly talking about Stannis' family,She must of thought that Renly was an idiot for saying crap like that

No, she thought (quite rightly) that they were both fools.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I've never really understood Cat hate. She's clearly intelligent, just unappreciated by those around her.

[Jslay427]

A lot of the Cat hate stems from her treatment of Jon (as others may Have said, I don't really read every post). And I think hate blinds a lot of people into thinking she is stupid as well as cruel to Jon . She is Robb's most trusted and wise counselor, tactics aside .