JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The manga I (used to) follow is called Saint Seiya. First published in the 80s, and it was the big think back in Japan then, and when the anime was launched, a total success in Europa and Latin America. At the beginning of the 90s, it got cancelled, both Manga and Anime (which was in the second "season") and never got the finale animated. In the year 2000, during a convention, some fans animated the end (part of it) and Toei realised they should do. They did, they animated the final season and decided to relaunch the franchise with a continuation to the Manga and spin-offs. This mangaka is 60 and stuck in the past. He hasn't evolved in his style and while his more "militant" fans defend his work, I couldn't be more tired of it and his antics. He only writes whenever he feels he wants to and the worst thing is that the quality of the work is MEDIOCRE and it really looks like a six years old draws the whole thing while the story is THE SAME THING he has been doing for the last 30 years: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130118215715/saintseiya/es/images/1/1e/ND_CAP_52.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cvXfsLrr-Iw/UjfPXPvki4I/AAAAAAAABlg/PKU_ilbAzcc/s1600/shiryu+e+dohko+next+dimension.jpghttp://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110422224802/saintseiya/es/images/e/ef/DohkoND.jpg Compare that with the two spin-offs the fans completely trashed because they weren't "original", "canon" or "bad because a woman did them" (the second one):http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/125/05-025.0/compressed/dsaint_seiya_episode_g_v006_c025_-_002.jpg?v=11363848721http://a.mpcdn.net/manga/p/883/38087/2.jpg This whole conversation about what the fans are entitled or not I've already had it before, many many times when I still followed the manga. There was a time when I only read this mess to make fun of it, because both the argument and the story were exactly that: laughable, as well as the attempts of the mangaka's fans to defend him in all possible ways. And he was the same case as GRRM: he was involved in movies, games, other works... everything except working at this manga. And yes, even though he's healthier and younger than Martin, people often complained that he would die before he finish his story. While it's true we fans have no rights to demand anything from GRRM or anyone, the less they can do is to offer some quality in their work, specially in a series you follow. It's not an obligation per se, but a bit of a silent agreement or commitment to your audience. Because in a series, if I buy vol. 1 and then I realise vol. 2 was made only because my editors ask me, it's a bit disrespectful. If I buy vol 2 is because I liked vol 1 and I am expecting the same. That doesn't mean all volumes should be the same, every series is meant to have a few low numbers (as many think it happened with Feast and Dance, although that I don't agree). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 And they are free, at any time they please, to end that relationship by ceasing to buy any more books that he writes. If they are unhappy for any reason, whether that be the quality of the writing or the frequency of releases (or both), that's their right. :cheers: Exactly. If you hate FFC and DwD so much, then stop reading them, stop posting on this forum and dont buy the next books. It's really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 :cheers: Exactly. If you hate FFC and DwD so much, then stop reading them, stop posting on this forum and dont buy the next books. It's really that simple.Hating the writing is a bit of a deflection, but I find the 'only X opinions are welcome/indicative of fandom' position a particularly troubling one in any sphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Housekeeping note: comments about the TV series should be kept for that forum, even if it's about GRRM-scripted episodes. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BastardlyRock Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 :cheers: Exactly. If you hate FFC and DwD so much, then stop reading them, stop posting on this forum and dont buy the next books. It's really that simple. Being an avid AFFC fan I'll toast to that :cheers: Housekeeping note: comments about the TV series should be kept for that forum, even if it's about GRRM-scripted episodes. Thanks. :blushing: My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 But eventually we get back to work. It doesn't matter how much you think on your story, you need to write it for it to count. All of those things you listed can also be used as excuses to procrastinate. You're not really cleaning the kitchen because oh-my-gosh-it's-so-filthy. You're cleaning it to avoid working. If you really are a writer then you know exactly what I mean. Yes, eventually. And GRRM does always get back to work. I brought it up because a lot of non-writers don't know that writing is more than just typing words on a screen/page. If it were that simple, monkeys could write bestsellers with regularity. Sometimes your brain needs a break, and things need to simmer. That's part of the process, and it's ok...as long as you do go back to work. I only take issue with the kitchen example. I don't think I've ever been desperate enough to avoid something that I resorted to kitchen cleaning. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther2000 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 All I can say about people asking George about his health & such, he gave the best response. Perfect, just perfect :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Asking GRRM about it is just rude, but it is a perfectly natural and reasonable thing to wonder about in regards to the completion of the series. Just constantly talking about it is kind of tasteless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Filet Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 the 'GRRM is not your bitch' argument strikes me as a straw man/non-starter. 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' It presupposes a flaw in the opposing argument that isn't necessarily there, and then illustrates that flaw as a way of marginalizing the opposing argument. Not terribly beneficial to the actual discussion unless people are actually arguing that GRRM be physically or legally compelled to follow a specific course of action. :bowdown: Excellent dissection of an asinine blanket statement. I may just make this my signature! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 :bowdown: Excellent dissection of an asinine blanket statement. I may just make this my signature!Don Diego is killing it in this thread. Somehow he's arguing from both sides and winning. It's like watching someone play chess against themselves. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeksi Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 For the people who keep bringing up Robert Jordan's death as a reason to worry about GRRM's: I was also a Robert Jordan fan- the Wheel of Time was the first "epic fantasy" series I really got into, and I was devastated when he died. But it wasn't exactly a surprise- he had a serious heart condition, as he announced to his fans on his blog when he was first diagnosed. He had been told that he could have an average of 4 years left to live, with treatment. Now, yes, his death was shocking in coming as it did, much sooner than those four years, particularly given that he had spoken confidently of intending to beat the Statistics, and that his health seemed to remain good, before going downhill as quickly as it did. But nontheless, his death was caused by a serious medical condition, not by old age or by his diet (as far as I know this had no impact on his condition, at least). GRRM is, as far as we know, a healthy man in his mid 60s. Yes, he might suddenly develop some sort of fatal condition, but so might any author of any age, so let's stop pointing to Robert Jordan's fate in an attempt to justify talking about GRRM finishing the series in terms of "before his impending death". I can certainly appreciate people getting tired of the long waits in between books, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Most of the girls I live with are students, and we all joke about how much cleaner the house gets when essays are assigned.Girls? Live with? Students? IS THERE ANY ROOM FOR ANOTHER TENANT?!!!!?!?!?!???!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 He did, actually. Good luck with that one in court. All he did was affirm his intention to finish the series. He owes you nothing and you have no argument that would be given one second's consideration to say that he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 :bowdown: Excellent dissection of an asinine blanket statement. I may just make this my signature!Cheers. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Don Diego is killing it in this thread. Somehow he's arguing from both sides and winning. It's like watching someone play chess against themselves. :lol:Eh, I can be counted on to argue against myself a lot more than winning anything. I have all the intellectual concentration of a kitten with ADHD, but I thank you for the kind words. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Girls? Live with? Students?IS THERE ANY ROOM FOR ANOTHER TENANT?!!!!?!?!?!???!!! Good luck with that one in court. All he did was affirm his intention to finish the series. He owes you nothing and you have no argument that would be given one second's consideration to say that he does.lolzy to both of these Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Girls? Live with? Students?IS THERE ANY ROOM FOR ANOTHER TENANT?!!!!?!?!?!???!!!Lol, out of my hands, man. Sorry. But whenever guys hear of the 6-1 ratio, they wrongly assume some kind of Playboy mansion set up. It's much more of a shoe colony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Smokin a Blunt Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Ya know, or he could go into a studio in NM and line them all up to do via satellite in an afternoon with no travel time.....but you can believe he "has to" travel to Switzerland because his publishers demand it if you want to, LOL.Cant do book signings via satellite, which im sure he's also doing. Besides, why do you think chaining the man to his computer is going to make the writing go faster? He needs a break just like we do. I want the novels to be good, not rushed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Are we still talking about GGRM's health? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I don't see the difference. The only post-purchase practical lever would be a legal one.Well, as I mentioned I am not really of the mind that GRRM has an ethical obligation to finish, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you are attempting to make it. For example, the Orient Express question. If a company advertises the Orient Express but only sells tickets between, say, Paris and Vienna, with the understanding that a separate arrangement will need to be made in Vienna for the remainder, and upon arriving in Vienna the passenger finds that there is no service available between Vienna and Istanbul, there is no question that legally the company is not liable to provide said service, or at least ensure that it is available.But there would be ethical and moral considerations which would suggest that they ought to. Not because they provided one side of an obligation between Vienna and Istanbul...they haven't...but because of the context within which the first portion was sold to them. That context strongly suggests a further-though not yet sold or paid for-service which inherently affects the intent and perceived value of the initial purchase at the time of the transaction.No lawyer would be able to win a legal complaint against the train service, but many would feel an ethical understanding was not fulfilled.This is mainly me playing devil's advocate. If I were forced to take an absolute position I would probably side with you/Martin. My objection is to the idea that there are no relevant considerations beyond the individual price for individual product ones. 'This way to the egress' is also a flawless legal and practically correct process, but again most would assume an ethical line was crossed. (Admittedly a more extreme example, and involving deliberation, but to illustrate why moral isolation over narrowly defined pecuniary processes do not necessarily address the entirety of the issue.) Whether you are playing devil's advocate or genuinely think the act of writing a story in instalments creates an ethical obligation that the author must finish you are simply wrong. There is no ethical or moral angle to GRRM not finishing a story that we all hope he does. Feelings of disappointment or frustration on your part do not make GRRM unethical or immoral. They just mean you feel frustrated and / or disappointed. Life can be like that. You wrote a fair bit about the misuse of "entitlement", well I think your attempt to invent an ethical dimension to hurry GRRM up to finish the story (so you can read it) is pretty ironic. We can all be honest here because we all want to read the story. But let's not confuse our understandable but still selfish wants with ethics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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