Pity for Aerys II

[Maia]

It's a shame he didn't have a friend other than Tywin Lannister.

He had Steffon Baratheon too. Also, what makes you think that Tywin had been a bad friend to Aerys before the latter stressed their relationship beyond all endurance out of jealousy/envy/lust for Joanna? I am pretty sure that Tywin's diatribe about the worthlessness of love came from his own personal disappointments as well as from Tytos's example.

[bent branch]

In this case, odds are that the maesters were behind the Defiance of Duskendale as well.

Yes, I believe they were at least partially responsible for Duskendale.

[Lion of the West]

I feel sorry for old Aerys but I also understand that he had to go since he seemed to have been lost to reason.

[Faydra]

He had Steffon Baratheon too. Also, what makes you think that Tywin had been a bad friend to Aerys before the latter stressed their relationship beyond all endurance out of jealousy/envy/lust for Joanna? I am pretty sure that Tywin's diatribe about the worthlessness of love came from his own personal disappointments as well as from Tytos's example.

Tywin simply strikes me more like a social climber rather than a true friend. The worthlessness of love diatribe comes more from him believing he's above human nature. And Steffon, regardless of how true his intentions were, died.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He had Steffon Baratheon too.

I was about to wonder the same. What the heck happened there?

Also, what makes you think that Tywin had been a bad friend to Aerys before the latter stressed their relationship beyond all endurance out of jealousy/envy/lust for Joanna? I am pretty sure that Tywin's diatribe about the worthlessness of love came from his own personal disappointments as well as from Tytos's example.

Tywin simply strikes me more like a social climber rather than a true friend. The worthlessness of love diatribe comes more from him believing he's above human nature. And Steffon, regardless of how true his intentions were, died.

I agree that Tywin is a climber. There is two Tywins we can differentiate: the Tywin that only cared about the realm that is presented in the book and was nothing but a victim of mad Aerys, and the Tywin we've meet in ASOIAF. And the Tywin we've met in ASOIAF is the one who has no moral boundaries to keep him from doing what he needs, and whose actions we've seen. So, which one is the real one? The one we see through the eyes of his children and enemies or the one who is described by one of his more loyal followers?

I'm of the idea of Tywin alienating Aerys from people that could have actually made some good. Maybe Steffon was one of them. Rhaegar, too. Tywin in fact suggested Rhaegar as King when Aerys was still alive. What was he expecting Aerys to do but assume they were together in removing him? One has to wonder how much of Aerys' paranoia was in fact instigated by Tywin himself.

[Faydra]

So, which one is the real one? The one we see through the eyes of his children and enemies or the one who is described by one of his more loyal followers?

This is very well put.

[SeanF]

As ever, we don't have enough information.

Aerys may have been bad from the outset, and got worse. Or he, Steffon and Tywin were three fine young officers, but Aerys steadily deteriorated as his mental illness took hold. Tywin might have been an ambitious social climber, or a man who did his duty, out of loyalty to what his friend had been, rather than what he became.

[The Amethyst Empress]

Nah,I don't feel pity for Aerys...After reading TWOIAF I actually felt pity for Tywin,Aerys was such an asshole to him.

[John Doe]

I really pity him. It's clearly someone who could have been an OK king if he had had a good hand, a good council and some good friends around.

He did have a good hand.

[David Selig]

To me, he's on par with Sandor and Arya. It's a shame he didn't have a friend other than Tywin Lannister.

Imagine that your only close friend is Tywin of all people. That's got to suck a lot.

[John Doe]

So, which one is the real one? The one we see through the eyes of his children and enemies or the one who is described by one of his more loyal followers?

Pycelle might have had a reason why he was Tywins' follower.

[Wmarshal]

No, he was terrible person before h went mad, I only pity Tywin for dealing with him for so long. Aerys would have save himself less hate from Tywin if he but let him go when he should have.

[John Doe]

Imagine if your only close friend is Tywin of all people. That's got to suck a lot.

I would prefer Tywin over Aerys all day.

[The Wolves]

I feel some pity for him his mental state is something I don't think he could control but he did harm and kill people so I feel very little pity for him, but I feel it.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I really pity him. It's clearly someone who could have been an OK king if he had had a good hand, a good council and some good friends around.

He had one of the best Hands on record, and a popular charismatic heir, and did nothing but antagonize both of them.

[Wmarshal]

I really pity him. It's clearly someone who could have been an OK king if he had had a good hand, a good council and some good friends around.

he had all these things, he still pissed it away.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He had one of the best Hands on record, and a popular charismatic heir, and did nothing but antagonize both of them.

he had all these things, he still pissed it away.

His Hand's only interest was his own, not the realm.

Even if that's somehow debatable, his council was very divided, and he had no one capable: MW was weak, Pycelle was team Tywin, Chelsted, Velaryion and the other guy had only their interests in mind. And Varys... who the hell knows what he wanted. And the only ones he trusted, his KG, were probably plotting to remove him.

Rhaegar meant no harm, though.

[John Doe]

His Hand's only interest was his own, not the realm.

So you think he was a bad hand? If so, you're wrong, because the book cleary states the contrary. If not, this statement is worthless.

[Ramsay Gimp]

His Hand's only interest was his own, not the realm.

Even if that's somehow debatable, his council was very divided, and he had no one capable: MW was weak, Pycelle was team Tywin, Chelsted, Velaryion and the other guy had only their interests in mind. And Varys... who the hell knows what he wanted. And the only ones he trusted, his KG, were probably plotting to remove him.

Rhaegar meant no harm, though.

-If Tywin's interest had been "the realm," how would he have acted differently? Of course he was an ambitious social climber, only a fool would deny that. But that in no way detracts from his competence and effectiveness as Hand, or justifies Aerys' treatment of him. The Mad King was surrounded by social climbers and lickspittles, but he had no problem with that - the root of his hatred of Tywin was jealousy. It's hard for me to see Tywin as the bad guy in the relationship when he tried to resign and was forbidden from doing so.

If Tywin was becoming a problem, the King could send him packing. Instead he chose to steal his son and heir, publicly insult him, invite his wife to court and humiliate/possibly assault her, etc.

-Why was Pycelle on team Tywin? Why was Aerys's Kingsguard plotting against him?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So you think he was a bad hand? If so, you're wrong, because the book cleary states the contrary. If not, this statement is worthless.

I haven't said he was a bad Hand. Being good at your work doesn't mean you're a good person, or your interests are in the right place.

Look at politicians. How many of them run charities or introduce laws that are good for others while they are actually trying to benefit only themselves? A local congresswoman actually created a law that would help hundreds of people here, yet, she belongs to a quite corrupt party and she keeps defending it.

There is no denying that Tywin was an effective Hand and he did good things for the realm. But, he never did it because it was the right thing to do, he did it because that would look good on him, and that would help his position. He definitely didn't mind if his own ambition could cause a rupture on KL: he loudly said that he didn't care if Aerys died, as Rhaegar would be King. That made Aerys to believe that Tywin and Rhaegar were plotting together against him and it wasn't true. What would have happened if Aerys had really gone mad and killed Rhaegar? Viserys had inherited (probably), and after Aerys had died, who would be called as Hand? Yeah, who do you think?

The Tywin of TWOIAF is not the real Tywin. The real Tywin is the one we've met in ASOIAF, the ruthless ambitious cold hearted prick that sees red everywhere when his pride is hurt.