Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Sologdin,Let me tell you how popular my kids, who don't say the pledge, were in their Home School group. For people who don't want their kids in "government" schools many homeschoolers don't think very hard about the positions they espouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 wait--they do the pledge in home school groups? the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhangel Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 That's appalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhangel Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Sologdin,Let me tell you how popular my kids, who don't say the pledge, were in their Home School group. For people who don't want their kids in "government" schools many homeschoolers don't think very hard about the positions they espouse. The other day I read a really interesting paper about the difference between conscious and reflexive cognition on political thinking - it's quite long but it's really intriguing if you've got the time: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.111.853&rep=rep1&type=pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Sologdin,They did. My kids and my wife choose to remain seated. I think it is more a religious statement than political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The nurse should be reminded there is such a thing as Hippocratic oath and that she does not have the right to refuse treatment to anyone, least of all a kid she's PAID to treat. Are nurses held to similar professional standards as doctors in this regard? I wondered about the Hippocratic oath (or, at least, the spirit behind it) as well. While nurses don't take the Hippocratic oath they do have the Nightingale oath (though, I don't know if they all take it or not?) So, yeah, health care providers ethically shouldn't be refusing care to those they may have ideological differences with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I wondered about the Hippocratic oath (or, at least, the spirit behind it) as well. While nurses don't take the Hippocratic oath they do have the Nightingale oath (though, I don't know if they all take it or not?) So, yeah, health care providers ethically shouldn't be refusing care to those they may have ideological differences with. She may not be an actual RN/BSN. Some school 'nurses' are just medically trained teachers, or volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I wondered about the Hippocratic oath (or, at least, the spirit behind it) as well. While nurses don't take the Hippocratic oath they do have the Nightingale oath (though, I don't know if they all take it or not?) So, yeah, health care providers ethically shouldn't be refusing care to those they may have ideological differences with. I never took the Nightingale pledge, for what its worth. Okay, so, first, I think that refusing to treat someone for ideological differences, regardless of what they are, is wrong. Completely. If she was licensed, the Board of Nursing should be taking a look at that. Second, my understanding from my ethics classes is that, regardless of anything if you're the sole provider available and the patient is under your care, you're responsible for caring for the patient. Ethically opposed to abortion, but you're the only nurse available to assist in one? Too bad, you're up even if you've told the hospital in advance that you're opposed to it. However, it is also the hospital's obligation to provide for a replacement if you made that ethical objection clear well in advance. I don't know when someone "assumes care" in a school setting, (and, imo, she assumed care of all of the students when she walked in for work that morning) but starting care and then stopping for any reason besides transferring to an equal or higher level of professional, or discharging them, is essentially patient abandonment. Which is both a crime and a reason for revocation of her license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westerosi Coast Gangster Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Fire the nurse. This is a goddamn child she is dealing with who no doubt refuses to stand due to what her parents taught her. I choose to stand during the pledge, and I might not like it if people choose not to stand but that is their RIGHT. I hate it when people do what this nurse did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 She may not be an actual RN/BSN. Some school 'nurses' are just medically trained teachers, or volunteers. What this school nurse did is still unethical in my book. You'll notice that I said "the Hippocratic oath (or, at least, the spirit behind it)" and I readily admit that I'm not sure all nurses even take the Nightingale oath or some other similar oath. Doesn't matter. Healthcare providers should not be allowed to refuse care for ideological differences. Now, if a nurse is in a setting where their objections to providing care can be accommodated in advance (as MerenthaClone describes below) then great! Doesn't seem to be the case here, though. I never took the Nightingale pledge, for what its worth. Okay, so, first, I think that refusing to treat someone for ideological differences, regardless of what they are, is wrong. Completely. If she was licensed, the Board of Nursing should be taking a look at that. Second, my understanding from my ethics classes is that, regardless of anything if you're the sole provider available and the patient is under your care, you're responsible for caring for the patient. Ethically opposed to abortion, but you're the only nurse available to assist in one? Too bad, you're up even if you've told the hospital in advance that you're opposed to it. However, it is also the hospital's obligation to provide for a replacement if you made that ethical objection clear well in advance. I don't know when someone "assumes care" in a school setting, (and, imo, she assumed care of all of the students when she walked in for work that morning) but starting care and then stopping for any reason besides transferring to an equal or higher level of professional, or discharging them, is essentially patient abandonment. Which is both a crime and a reason for revocation of her license. Great info, MerenthaClone Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 merentha--y'all have no exception for ideological adversaries on the basis that the provider might be unable to perform properly if the provider wants the patient to die? (attorneys can be rendered ethically unable to represent someone whom they loathe, for instance; am ethically prohibited from representing fascists, monarchists, theocrats, et al. because i want them not to get whatever it is they happen to want--not a good thing for your attorney to think.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerenthaClone Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 merentha--y'all have no exception for ideological adversaries on the basis that the provider might be unable to perform properly if the provider wants the patient to die? (attorneys can be rendered ethically unable to represent someone whom they loathe, for instance; am ethically prohibited from representing fascists, monarchists, theocrats, et al. because i want them not to get whatever it is they happen to want--not a good thing for your attorney to think.)Not entirely sure, actually. Probably. Next time I get a chance to chat with medical ethics, I'll ask. All of the exemptions I know of deal with there being no other alternative person, so in this hypothetical, if you're literally the only lawyer around to represent a fascist and said fascist is dependent on your care. My (weak) understanding of the ethics is that I'm fully expected to suck it up and do what's best for my patient, and that includes finding a replacement asap and providing competent care until said replacement arrives. The reason it hasn't come up and I haven't given it much thought is that its very rare for nurses to be completely alone. I work with around 12 others at any given time, plus 3 other ICUs are staffed. If I had a problem with a patient so significant that I honestly felt the best care for my patient was to refuse to begin care, I'd probably be accommodated because there'd be no shortage of people to switch assignments with, including the other ICUs, the hospital float pool, the system-wide float pool, the unit-based overflow pool, the nursing supervisor, the unit clinicians, etc. tldr; probably accommodated, probably have an obligation to refuse to provide care, but also, imo, expected to provide competent care for the duration it takes for a replacement to arrive. I'll think on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm really uncomfortable with the pledge. Every time I attend the weekly assembly at my son's school (parent's are invited for various performances, etc) they all stand, hand on heart, face the flag and recite the pledge, including "under god". It's fucking creepy. It feels like a relic of cold war brainwashing. The closest analogy in my Irish grade school experience was daily class recitation of Catholic prayers and catechism, which creeped me out just as much. That happened in a public school, not a private Catholic school, although only if your teacher for that grade was particularly pious. Anyway, when I am there at my son's school, I do stand and face the flag during the pledge in order to be polite and respectful. I'm planning to apply for US citizenship this year. The pledge is part of the ceremony. I still don't like the brainwashed patriotism but I guess I'm going to have to accept it. Western Europeans are generally much more skeptical of patriotism and obeisance to its symbols. America still feels immature, and perhaps insecure, in its patriotism. [\navel gazing]The nurse should be fired and possibly lose her medical license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawkcabi Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I started saying the Pledge when I was in Kindergarten at age 5. I didn't understand it. I thought the word "indivisible" meant the same as "invisible" that either the pledge or the flag or something we were pledging too had the power of invisibility or something. We were made to sing a song after the pledge too in earlier grades. Either "My country Tis of Thee", "America the Beautiful", "Grand Ol' Flag" or something like that. I was indoctrinated and my first inkling that something was wrong was the "Boy Meets World" episode where Topanga refused to say the pledge. Jaxom could probably wax philosophical about that. But as I've grown older and heard more opinions I've come to be bothered by it like many here are. Students shouldn't have to say it and the nurse was wrong to say she could refuse treatment to those that didn't say it. Scot,Just curious, being a lawyer, what's your opinion on swearing an oath on the bible in court? I remember that always bothering me before the idea of saying the Pledge did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Drawk,There isn't a requirement to take an oath on the Bible it is more custom than requirement and as such no Court should object if you choose not to. If a Judge does, that is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I think the nurse was an asshole here and should be reprimanded, suspended and/or fired. Also, I don't like forcing kids to say the pledge. It rubs me the wrong way too. When I am in a situation where it is recited (and this happens fairly frequently) I will stand, but I usually don't recite it. This is just part of not being an asshole. If kids don't want to recite the pledge, fine. But, there's something to be said about teaching kids not to be assholes, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Mr.OJ,So, if a group wants to recite the equivelent to the pledge to the Russian Government I'd be an asshole if I chose not to stand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Not standing for something like the pledge is not being an asshole. It's simply declining to participate in something. Talking while others have decided to participate in this starts to lean towards asshole behavior. The last school district I was working for had some really crazy issues about the pledge, the national anthem, and even praying. The teacher's lounge was always non-stop bitching about 'nazi' (yes, they used that word) parents who got in the way of kids reciting or singing these things. The principal and superintendent would start every meeting with bullshit like "it's too bad we can't bless this space and time but the attack on decency prevents it. Just know that it's in my heart." I often felt really uncomfortable, especially with the idea that I was required to request that students stand and recite the pledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I'm planning to apply for US citizenship this year. The pledge is part of the ceremony. I still don't like the brainwashed patriotism but I guess I'm going to have to accept it. Western Europeans are generally much more skeptical of patriotism and obeisance to its symbols. America still feels immature, and perhaps insecure, in its patriotism. When I got my citizenship, we took an oath of allegiance. It does contain the unfortunate phrase 'under god', but the wording is different from the pledge I believe. It was sort of interesting, during my interview the interviewer asked me if I would be ok with saying the oath of allegiance. I said I am fine with most of it except the 'under god' part. He said, fine, we can just write down that you are willing to say part of the oath of allegiance (but I would still be allowed to become a citizen). I said, no thanks, I dont want any official documentation that I refused to say parts of the oath. When the naturalization ceremony rolled about, the presiding judge basically reworded the phrasing of the oath so it did not have the phrase in it. I have no idea why he did that, he basically phrased the oath as a question to which we answered "I do". So I guess I am married to the US now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Dr. Pepper,Agreed. Talking through the pledge or national anthem would be rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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