School Nurse tells Student who refuses to rise for the "Pledge" she will refuse treatment to that student

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Swearing on the bible or some other holy book really wouldn't bother me. I mean it may be disrespectful to those of the faith, but from my pov its almost a joke.

I don't believe therefore the actual swearing on in meaningless since it has no power over my actions. but what I'm promising to do thats not meaningless and something I would take seriously.

I would feel differently if I was a different faith and was made to swear on someone else's holy book/relic. I guess that would be like abandoning your own.

But swearing allegiance to whatever. well Yeah I have a big problem with that. - unless I personally choose to swear alligance for my own personal reasons. Promises are important and shouldn't be given out willy nilly.

I'd also not stand when others do pledge their allegiance. their pledge is their business not mine. I wouldn't chatter or make noise while they did, cos thats disrespectful to their beliefs. By standing when they pledge i'm indicating that I personally agree with the pledge even if I'm not willing to take it myself. and not just supporting their choice to take the pledge.

but i'm a scummy eurocommie so this doesn't really come up.

oh and that nurse needs sacking or suspension at the very least.

[MisterOJ]

Mr.OJ,

So, if a group wants to recite the equivelent to the pledge to the Russian Government I'd be an asshole if I chose not to stand?

Maybe. Maybe not. It really depends on the situation. Context matters, I think.

[Dr. Pepper]

Maybe. Maybe not. It really depends on the situation. Context matters, I think.

Context doesn't really matter during oaths, vows, or pledges. The person who has decided to make this statement can do so. Those who decide not to do so have no reason to participate in any way.

The lack of informed consent with the pledge is one of the big reasons children should not be saying it, btw.

Perhaps context matters with things like national anthems, but that's a completely different thing.

[Swordfish]

I could care less about the pledge, but will point out, as per usual, we are seeing only one side of the story here, and that is the version being told by the plaintiffs in a lawsuit.

I'm maintaining a healthy skepticism that this went down as described in the OP for now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Swordfish,

I see a complaint made about the Nurse and a demand for an apology. Not a lawsuit.

[maarsen]

Up here in Canada when I was young, we had to sing God Save The Queen. Turned me into an anti-monarchist atheist, it did. As for the nurse, refusal to treat a patient could result in losing not only your job, but your nursing licence too.

[Bronn Stone]

I stand when the national anthem is played to show respect, but would not compel others to do so. I refuse to place my hands in any form of salute during said anthem out of my own sincere doubts about the course of the nation. I do my civilian version of "parade rest" instead.

On topic, really hoping that the nurse in question is not licensed, because "duty to care" requirements are at the core of the licensing process.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Patriotism at its finest.

[Tears of Lys]

I started saying the Pledge when I was in Kindergarten at age 5. I didn't understand it. I thought the word "indivisible" meant the same as "invisible" that either the pledge or the flag or something we were pledging too had the power of invisibility or something.

/snip

Scot,

Just curious, being a lawyer, what's your opinion on swearing an oath on the bible in court? I remember that always bothering me before the idea of saying the Pledge did.

One flag to rule them all? :eek: :uhoh:

I've gotta swear people in almost every day during my job as a court reporter. I've never had to carry a bible around with me, but my sister used to have to when she worked as a court reporter down in N. Carolina. It does bother me a bit that the pledge I recite off that they respond to includes "so help me God." I'd much rather the witness be compelled to tell the truth by use of a gom jabbar. We'd get much better results, I reckon.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

ToL,

The Gom Jabbar only works on non-humans. ;)

[Swordfish]

Swordfish,

I see a complaint made about the Nurse and a demand for an apology. Not a lawsuit.

I stand corrected. But the underlying point remains. There is plenty of room for skepticism here, not the least of which is the organization filing the complaint.

We should wait for the facts to emerge here. That's all I'm saying.

[HexMachina]

Man, wish I'd thought of refusing to take part in all the boring shit I had to do at school on religious grounds.

Singing God Save the Queen never bothered me, despite the fact that I do not believe in God or the Queen (it's just more Corgis in a wig). Although it is a pretty shite national anthem as they go.

That said, I hope the nurse gets sacked. Refusing healthcare* to a child is abominable, even assuming they could have an informed political/religious perspective on the matter. R.e. it being disrespectful... is it just an urban myth that the USA does not dip the flag at the Olympics? I don't think it's disrespectful to remain seated anyway. It would be disrespectful to interrupt it, but simply abstaining is not. Surely remaining silent is enough to show your acknowledgement of it's importance?

*Perhaps I'm being naive, but I find it hard to believe she'd really go through with it.

You had to sing God Save the Queen at school? Weird, I don't recall ever doing that, not even for the Jubilee. Must have been to a poshies school*. We did need to sign hymns though, which was weird as we were not a catholic school.

*no offence meant. But when I was in secondary school we used to joke on with a friend who went to public school when we left her at the bus stop that she was off to the poshies school.

One flag to rule them all? :eek: :uhoh:

I've gotta swear people in almost every day during my job as a court reporter. I've never had to carry a bible around with me, but my sister used to have to when she worked as a court reporter down in N. Carolina. It does bother me a bit that the pledge I recite off that they respond to includes "so help me God." I'd much rather the witness be compelled to tell the truth by use of a gom jabbar. We'd get much better results, I reckon.

You can choose to affirm if you are not religious can't you?

[The Mance]

You can choose to affirm if you are not religious can't you?

Considering that atheists generally rank just below rapists and pedophiles on 'trustworthiness' polls, would you really want to? Fuck foxholes, if i ever have a come to jesus moment it'll be the day I have to testify in front of a jury.

[Dr. Pepper]

I stand corrected. But the underlying point remains. There is plenty of room for skepticism here, not the least of which is the organization filing the complaint.

We should wait for the facts to emerge here. That's all I'm saying.

I get what you're saying about the facts of the case that was presented in the OP to start off discussion. I'm not sure how I get waiting around for both sides of the story prevents actually submitting an opinion about the way the pledge of allegiance is treated in the U.S.

Also, not trying to be rude here, just wanting to sate my own curiosity. In real life, do you ever discuss anything or do you always just say, "more facts, more facts, no comment until more facts"?

[Jo498]

As I understood the case noone refused treatment. The nurse threatened to withhold treatment but as no treatment was needed there was no actual refusal. Of course, this was stupid behavior. OTOH children are in school to be educated. I agree that it is disrespectful not to rise when social rules demand it. In court one could be fined for disrespect. Elsewhere it is just bad behavior and impolite. (There is often no logical reason for such rules but it is common politeness to follow them, independent of the fact whether you join in the prayer, oath, hymn whatever).

So I think it was o.k. to tell the girl about it although it should have been done by a teacher in an even tone with an explanation not by the angry nurse with a stupid threat.

I am also somewhat confused that a 12 or 14 yo girl is old enough to proudly disregard social rules but breaks into tears and needs to call parents when told off...

(The most puzzling thing might be that this is deemed newsworthy....)

[Tears of Lys]

You can choose to affirm if you are not religious can't you?

Yeah, you can. In my 15+ years of court reporting I've probably had two people affirm. At one time I incorporated "do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth..." into my spiel. I got a few odd looks, strangely enough. Then I just dropped it because so few people chose affirmation.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jo,

Why should I be required to stand for a loyalty oath I will not take? The Pledge has to be fully voluntary or it is meaningless.

[FuzzydaBear]

Fuzzy,

Tautologies are rarely convincing arguments. If you can't state a rational reason why it is disrespectful to remain seated while others recite the Pledge that's a problem because it falls back to "its disrespectful because I think it is disrespectful". Tautology.

The burden is on you to state a rational argument as to why it is disrespectful to remain seated while others recite the pledge.

Ok. Here you go.

By not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance you are showing disrespect to the millions of Americans who gave their lives throughout American History by defending the country.

It is that simple.

Now as I stated one doesn't need to SAY the Pledge of Allegiance but simply stand.

Think of it like this. You have stated that you have kids. I'm sure your kids have friends. I wouldn't be surprised if your kid's friends are religious. It again would't surprise me that you would be invited to a religious ceremony that has to do with your kids friends. Now being a nice guy, you attend. If there are parts of the ceremony that requires everyone to stand and pray, I would assume that out of respect for your kid's friend's parents that you would at least stand. You wouldn't be expected to pray but at least show respect for their traditions whether you agree with them or not.

The same applies to my point about standing with people say the Pledge of Allegiance.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Why us my standing for an unqualified loyalty oath in any way related to people who've died in American wars? If I object to a religious service I would not attend. People give the pledge at political gatherings and school assemblies (why I'm not sure) and expect people to recite along. Why do their expectations impose an obligation to honor a pledge I find objectionable?

[TrueMetis]

Ok. Here you go.

By not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance you are showing disrespect to the millions of Americans who gave their lives throughout American History by defending the country.

It is that simple.

This assumes that everyone who has fought to defend the US agrees with the pledge of allegiance. Which is a really stupid assumption. Arguably you're disrespecting a lot of those soldiers by saying the pledge of allegiance. Remember the pledge's first version can to being in 1892 and was only formally adopted by congress in 1942. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if say the American's who fought in the revolution, having fought specifically to leave their sovereign nation, would be against something like the pledge.

Think of it like this. You have stated that you have kids. I'm sure your kids have friends. I wouldn't be surprised if your kid's friends are religious. It again would't surprise me that you would be invited to a religious ceremony that has to do with your kids friends. Now being a nice guy, you attend. If there are parts of the ceremony that requires everyone to stand and pray, I would assume that out of respect for your kid's friend's parents that you would at least stand. You wouldn't be expected to pray but at least show respect for their traditions whether you agree with them or not.

The same applies to my point about standing with people say the Pledge of Allegiance.

The difference here is that you choose to go to whatever event you're talking about here and the standing and praying is central to it being a religious ceremony, you kind of have to go to school and the pledge of allegiance has nothing to do with getting an education.