[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVII - On her own

[Ingelheim]

What do you guys think about Ramsay telling her of Jon Snow?

[TheCasualObserver]

Ramsay does seem to like Sansa in his way. He was pretty chill about her escape attempt and her sass. I mean, sure, he tortured and flayed the old woman, but he would have done that to anyone found to be working against the Boltons. He seems pretty pleased with Sansa and willing to take her bastard comments in stride. He's not in love with her or anything, but compared to his treatment of Myranda when she started talking back and saying things he didn't like hearing, I think Sansa might be ahead of the game.

Except that we've already seen him rape her. Now the showrunners have used the argument that Ramsay is a monster who absolutely would rape his bride, but you can't then scale that back so that Sansa can have brief moments of meaningless "empowerment" without suffering horrible retribution for it. Either he is or he isn't a monster - I don't hold with any middle ground, because if there is it presents the possibility that the final scene of last weeks episode didn't need to happen.

[Hath4]

Ramsay does seem to like Sansa in his way. He was pretty chill about her escape attempt and her sass. I mean, sure, he tortured and flayed the old woman, but he would have done that to anyone found to be working against the Boltons. He seems pretty pleased with Sansa and willing to take her bastard comments in stride. He's not in love with her or anything, but compared to his treatment of Myranda when she started talking back and saying things he didn't like hearing, I think Sansa might be ahead of the game.

except when he rapes and beats her on a nightly basis. he loves torturing her, similar to the way he loves reek. He has basically replaced one torture plaything with another. he couldn't respond to her bastard comment because he had her out in public, in private he can do anything he wants, but if he beat her in public roose would loose it. his tactics with her are similar to the ones he used with theon. first he begins by physically torturing his prey, then he moves on to the psychological phase. Flaying the old women was done to hurt her psychologically.

[Christi84]

Ramsay does seem to like Sansa in his way. He was pretty chill about her escape attempt and her sass. I mean, sure, he tortured and flayed the old woman, but he would have done that to anyone found to be working against the Boltons. He seems pretty pleased with Sansa and willing to take her bastard comments in stride. He's not in love with her or anything, but compared to his treatment of Myranda when she started talking back and saying things he didn't like hearing, I think Sansa might be ahead of the game.

He knows he needs her, so hes not going to abuse her to the point of death. Hes going to do what he wants of course, and Im sure she was thoroughly punished that night for trying to find a way to escape. But he cant really do to her what he can do with the other women because of who she is. Im sure that he likes that she has taken everything he has done to her and still shows herself as a lady in public

Hes going to wish he didnt tell her about her brother. Hes not quite smart enough to know hes being manipulated with her words. He felt the need to prove himself with talking about Jon

[Nobody of the canals]

*If* they want to do the pink letter on the show, it may not be a bad idea to have Sansa be the one who sends some version of it. That'll at least lend Sansa's new status as a player some credibility

[Tagganaro]

*If* they want to do the pink letter on the show, it may not be a bad idea to have Sansa be the one who sends some version of it. That'll at least lend Sansa's new status as a player some credibility

as a "player" of what? Being a victim again and hoping for someone else to save her from an impossible situation?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Unless you ship Arya/Tyrion, then the original draft should do nothing for you.

That is far, far too simplistic especially read in the context of this:

http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

Yes, some things have changed. Ramsey has taken some of Tyrion's plot, Meera has taken bits of Arya's plot but that doesn't mean that because some has changed, all is no longer going to happen. Dany still kills Drogo. Robb still dies. Cat still dies and likely was resurrected as a wight. Ned still dies. As we don't know what is to happen, we can't really throw things out uninformed can we? GRRM about his plans:

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing.

But there would be some secondary characters, like Bronn, Tyrion's henchman, [who] became a such a popular character. He came out of nowhere. [i was thinking], "Okay, Tyrion has meets these two sellswords, Bronn and Chiggen. And one's going to fight for him. Which one is it gonna be? Okay, we'll go with Bronn." But as I wrote about him, he developed a personality of his own.

I thought it was a trilogy, but it's grown beyond that. But the size is different and I've introduced some other elements to the books, but it's still the same characters, the '91 characters.

With these quotes in mind, I think the outline is a very useful bit of info for future speculation. But that is all it is, speculation, no one has proof.

[Grail King]

I wish we could get a sense if there are Northern Lords around Winterfell. Otherwise it feels like she is completely isolated without knowing who else to trust now. If she uses that tool to harm Ramsay I hope she either guts him in the stomach, dick, or his neck. But she has to do enough damage to incapicate him enough so she can get away from him. I don't want it to be like Beth on The Walking Dead.

I was wondering does Winterfell have secret passages? If so did the Stark kids know about them? Is there a way for her to get to the crypts and sneak out by using passages?

yes there are, stated in book and Osha snucked the boys out of the crypts.

Bran knows WF secrets better then anyone, but I think Rickon may know almost as much about the crypts since he went down there many times and seems to have sight like Bran and Jojen.

[rosehustle1]

I have nothing against children born of rape. They had no choice in the matter. My only worry is that because Ramsay and Roose both obviously have personality disorders, it stands to reason that there is a big chance that genetically, Sansa's child would have a similar personality disorder. Domeric has never existed in the show so we have to look at Roose and Ramsay as evidence that there is something wrong on the Bolton line. This is my reason for hoping they don't go the pregnancy route or she miscarries. They could show Sansa some mercy and make the child a normal person that looks and acts like a Stark through and through, but I don't think the creators really have any mercy for Sansa.

You know if Sansa had a baby it would still be a Snow. Like she said, Ramsay is still a bastard no matter the royal decree, when the Lannisters fall and either Dany or Jon come into power they could outlaw that marriage because it was forced and done to tear down house Stark. Or they could also decide to just legitimize the baby as a Stark and that way the Boton line does die out. I just don't want Sansa's baby to remain a Bolton, nor for Sansa to remain a Bolton.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

They can't outlaw the marriage. She said the vows, god help us it was consummated. She may be widowed but that is done. So the kid would not be a bastard, even if his father was a bastard, the kid was born in wedlock. We don't like it, it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

There is no evidence Roose has any sort of mental disorder beyond being a callous, opportunistic traitor. Ramsey is clearly mad like Joffrey.

[Grail King]

Also, if both Sansa and Ramsey are fertile, Sansa might become pregnant after one month or five months.

I keep thinking about all those blows to Sansa's stomach in book and show and if it has a part?

[Nobody of the canals]

as a "player" of what? Being a victim again and hoping for someone else to save her from an impossible situation?

Well, I should have said "the self-claimed status as a player" :). If you think about a situation where Sansa comes to know that Stannis is possibly losing, and intuits that reinforcement from the Night's Watch might help him out, and sends out a version of the pink letter to get Jon to come down south - ignoring the logistics of such a situation (since it's after all GoT), that's actually claiming some agency and influencing events larger than herself (she's not just getting herself out of a tough spot, she'd be actively working towards the downfall of the Boltons).

[rosehustle1]

AryaNymeriaVisenya

They can't outlaw the marriage. She said the vows, god help us it was consummated. She may be widowed but that is done. So the kid would not be a bastard, even if his father was a bastard, the kid was born in wedlock. We don't like it, it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

There is no evidence Roose has any sort of mental disorder beyond being a callous, opportunistic traitor. Ramsey is clearly mad like Joffrey.

Roose is a sociopath. His story about raping Ramsay's mother under her husband's dead body revealed alot about his nature. He lacks empathy and will do whatever it takes to get what he wants including betraying the Starks and mass murdering most of the Northmen. I do think that if they wanted to make the marriage illegitimate they could.

Actually, the Septon has to declare a marriage void and the writers saying that because Tyrion and her didn't have sex is enough to end the marriage, is actually not true. It would be interesting if that actually is brought up at some point and it's a nice surprise (maybe a bit of deux ex machina) to viewers. I also think that when the Lannister's are deposed, and seen as an unlawful criminal house, many of the things allowed to happen under their reign will be called into question. Giving Ramsay a royal decree could be overturned, and Sansa could manipulate the whole situation making it clear she was a forced war bride. I am hoping when it gets to that point she's better at playing the game, and if Jon does become some kind of powerful ruler, seeing firsthand her abused state, he could make the marriage illegitimate. She would just have to really play the part of victim well at that point because I think eventually she won't really be one anymore (she will be more in a mental space where she wants to end Littlefinger, Bolton line) and this marriage will be the only thing keeping her from completely gaining the upperhand.

Maybe these ideas are wishful thinking but it would be interesting if she played Jon kind of like the Vale Lords last season by playing the part of victimized young girl, (which she is of course) but by that time she's actually become hardened and is more Lady Stoneheart underneath. I don't love the idea of her losing her kindness but because they did the storyline like this it would make the most sense for her to be a dark character. However, I wouldn't equate that to empowered because the game would have taken away the part of herself that was still genuine and pure. It could demonstrate how singleminded she may become and how that will cost her ever finding a semblance of happiness. I'm probably overthinking things but it would be more complex character development if they went that way

[Ingelheim]

Sansa either goes to the wall or Jon will try & rescue her. One of these two is almost confirmed.

I have had this feeling since the start of the season itself and the show has now confirmed it.

I personally feel Sansa will finally make it to the Wall in the final scene of the show just as olly shoots an arrow into Jon Snow.

They already did the Dany / Tyrion reunion. Why not do one for Jon & Sansa?

That's what I think as well.

[Pies are coming]

What do you guys think about Ramsay telling her of Jon Snow?

I think he was testing her to see if that's a soft spot he can use against her in the future. Basically "Mmm, does she care about Jon Snow?"

as a "player" of what? Being a victim again and hoping for someone else to save her from an impossible situation?

I didn't see her hoping for someone else to save her. She's acting, even if her options are very limited.

I have nothing against children born of rape. They had no choice in the matter. My only worry is that because Ramsay and Roose both obviously have personality disorders, it stands to reason that there is a big chance that genetically, Sansa's child would have a similar personality disorder. Domeric has never existed in the show so we have to look at Roose and Ramsay as evidence that there is something wrong on the Bolton line. This is my reason for hoping they don't go the pregnancy route or she miscarries. They could show Sansa some mercy and make the child a normal person that looks and acts like a Stark through and through, but I don't think the creators really have any mercy for Sansa.

You know if Sansa had a baby it would still be a Snow. Like she said, Ramsay is still a bastard no matter the royal decree, when the Lannisters fall and either Dany or Jon come into power they could outlaw that marriage because it was forced and done to tear down house Stark. Or they could also decide to just legitimize the baby as a Stark and that way the Boton line does die out. I just don't want Sansa's baby to remain a Bolton, nor for Sansa to remain a Bolton.

If Ramsay is a bastard, the child will be a Stark.

[Newstar]

Flaying the old women was done to hurt her psychologically.

I'm not convinced. Flaying is the standard Bolton punishment and Ramsay has been using it as such long before Sansa entered the picture. Even Roose, who lacks Ramsay's gleeful sadism, is a strong proponent of flaying as a punishment and as an interrogation technique. Showing Sansa the body was somewhat matter of fact, as opposed to Joffrey being all "Lookit dead Ned's head, bitch!"

Not saying that Ramsay is husband of the year or anything, or that he's not abusing her, merely that I saw a difference in how he was treating Sansa as opposed to Myranda or Theon, and that that might be something Sansa could capitalize on.

[Newstar]

I think if Sansa had Ramsay's child it would normally considered legitimate. However, if Tommen's reign is invalidated because he's declared a bastard, that might nullify all his decrees, including the one legitimizing Ramsay.

I think if Sansa bore Ramsay's child, she would lie about its parentage, both to ensure the Boltons died out officially and to protect the child from any vengeful northerners eager to wipe out the Bolton line. If Sansa got impregnated with Ramsay's child, it would be a Roslin Frey situation.

As for the writers supposedly screwing up by failing to annul Sansa and Tyrion's marriage, they didn't screw up: they changed the rules in the show so that non-consummation automatically voids a marriage, as opposed to rendering it voidable as in the books.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Roose is a sociopath. His story about raping Ramsay's mother under her husband's dead body revealed alot about his nature. He lacks empathy and will do whatever it takes to get what he wants including betraying the Starks and mass murdering most of the Northmen. I do think that if they wanted to make the marriage illegitimate they could.

Actually, the Septon has to declare a marriage void and the writers saying that because Tyrion and her didn't have sex is enough to end the marriage, is actually not true. It would be interesting if that actually is brought up at some point and it's a nice surprise (maybe a bit of deux ex machina) to viewers. I also think that when the Lannister's are deposed, and seen as an unlawful criminal house, many of the things allowed to happen under their reign will be called into question. Giving Ramsay a royal decree could be overturned, and Sansa could manipulate the whole situation making it clear she was a forced war bride. I am hoping when it gets to that point she's better at playing the game, and if Jon does become some kind of powerful ruler, seeing firsthand her abused state, he could make the marriage illegitimate. She would just have to really play the part of victim well at that point because I think eventually she won't really be one anymore (she will be more in a mental space where she wants to end Littlefinger, Bolton line) and this marriage will be the only thing keeping her from completely gaining the upperhand.

Maybe these ideas are wishful thinking but it would be interesting if she played Jon kind of like the Vale Lords last season by playing the part of victimized young girl, (which she is of course) but by that time she's actually become hardened and is more Lady Stoneheart underneath. I don't love the idea of her losing her kindness but because they did the storyline like this it would make the most sense for her to be a dark character. However, I wouldn't equate that to empowered because the game would have taken away the part of herself that was still genuine and pure. It could demonstrate how singleminded she may become and how that will cost her ever finding a semblance of happiness. I'm probably overthinking things but it would be more complex character development if they went that way

I don't think Roose is insane, he's on a level of insanity of Tywin. A better case can be made for the book version. What has he actually done in the show? Betrayed his king, stabbed him to death, took control of the North. Plus he has a horror story about raping a woman because she tried to evade his First Night 'rights'. He's tired of Ramsey's antics.

It seems to be true in the context of the TV series. Littlefinger and Roose wouldn't have pushed it if they knew it was a load of crap.

Ramsey is abusing her and broke her hymen. Virginity isn't purity. She is nothing like Stoneheart, Stoneheart is just hanging all the Freys she sees out of hatred and vengence. Wearing dark clothes is not enough to make her Stoneheart. Not until I see hanging Boltons like pretty maids all in a row.

[rosehustle1]

What I wondered before Ramsay said the thing about Jon was why Sansa hadn't thought of going to the wall before? Arya was always intending to get to the wall until the end of last season when she was told there were no boats going that way and she decided to go to Braavos. Sansa knew that Jon took the black, so I wonder why it never was brought up before that she has a half-brother at the wall? I think that would have made more sense that she would trust him to help her versus elderly Winterfell workers that could have been plants. I wish they could have given her one true confident in Winterfell that she could say things to, so that the audience could actually see her making plans before the wedding took place.

[Nobody of the canals]

Not saying that Ramsay is husband of the year or anything, or that he's not abusing her, merely that I saw a difference in how he was treating Sansa as opposed to Myranda or Theon, and that that might be something Sansa could capitalize on.

Why do you think Ramsay's been treating Myranda badly? The two seem to share an almost semi-functional relationship, at least by Ramsay's standards, it was a little 50 shades of gray, but a far cry from his relationship with Theon.

In fact the introduction of Myranda and the way they're treating her relationship with Ramsay, sort of gave me the impression initially that Sansa was going to pretend to be a psycho herself and try to manipulate him the way Margery did Joffrey, to achieve... something. She even did the little fake curtsy in E4(?) in front of the Boltons, which seemed to point towards something like that but now seems completely inconsistent with her chosen modus operandi.