[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVII - On her own

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her.

That was quite book accurate to when she found out about Jon from Myranda. She just doesn't think of him

[rosehustle1]

AryaNymeriaVisenya

I don't think Roose is insane, he's on a level of insanity of Tywin. A better case can be made for the book version. What has he actually done in the show? Betrayed his king, stabbed him to death, took control of the North. Plus he has a horror story about raping a woman because she tried to evade his First Night 'rights'. He's tired of Ramsey's antics.

It seems to be true in the context of the TV series. Littlefinger and Roose wouldn't have pushed it if they knew it was a load of crap.

Ramsey is abusing her and broke her hymen. Virginity isn't purity. She is nothing like Stoneheart, Stoneheart is just hanging all the Freys she sees out of hatred and vengence. Wearing dark clothes is not enough to make her Stoneheart. Not until I see hanging Boltons like pretty maids all in a row.

I'm not saying he's insane. You can have a personality disorder and have a grip on reality. I'm saying he is a sociopath because he lacks empathy and will do anything without regard to accepted social aggreements (guest rite) to gain what he wants. Sociopaths do not care about societal conventions or the laws, they do what they want to gain what they want. He may be methodical and know how to pick his battles but that doesn't mean he is a person that thinks 'normally' in regards to how you interact with others or respect other people's boundaries.

I'm not saying she has to hang Freys, I'm saying that she'll be less merciful or able to see the suffering of others once she gets to this stage. It will be her character becoming stonehearted in a way that she was never before. She will probably take down some of these people at some point but not in the over the top way Lady Stoneheart does in the books. I think it will be more insidious because she will have perfected her outward image as a victim but on the inside she'll be pure hate and also have disconnect from her more vulnerable feelings (which is understandable because if she faces the trauma she could collapse under it). I actually think she'll wear her house colors again when it comes to this point but it will just be another part of a role she is portraying. It will be a sad development for her character because she would have no genuine kindness left for others, it would all be an act at that point.

[Nobody of the canals]

I'm not saying he's insane. You can have a personality disorder and have a grip on reality. I'm saying he is a sociopath because he lacks empathy and will do anything without regard to accepted social aggreements (guest rite) to gain what he wants. Sociopaths do not care about societal conventions or the laws, they do what they want to gain what they want. He may be methodical and know how to pick his battles but that doesn't mean he is a person that thinks 'normally' in regards to how you interact with others or respect other people's boundaries.

I'm not saying she has to hang Freys, I'm saying that she'll be less merciful or able to see the suffering of others once she gets to this stage. It will be her character becoming stonehearted in a way that she was never before. She will probably take down some of these people at some point but not in the over the top way Lady Stoneheart does in the books. I think it will be more insidious because she will have perfected her outward image as a victim but on the inside she'll be pure hate and also have disconnect from her more vulnerable feelings (which is understandable because if she faces the trauma she could collapse under it). I actually think she'll wear her house colors again when it comes to this point but it will just be another part of a role she is portraying. It will be a sad development for her character because she would have no genuine kindness left for others, it would all be an act at that point.

Roose is not insane, but he definitely qualifies as a psychopath - lack of empathy, inability to form an emotional attachment, ability to plan in detail, manipulate emotions, possessing a cool head, seldom losing control.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath

[Hath4]

I'm not convinced. Flaying is the standard Bolton punishment and Ramsay has been using it as such long before Sansa entered the picture. Even Roose, who lacks Ramsay's gleeful sadism, is a strong proponent of flaying as a punishment and as an interrogation technique. Showing Sansa the body was somewhat matter of fact, as opposed to Joffrey being all "Lookit dead Ned's head, bitch!"

Not saying that Ramsay is husband of the year or anything, or that he's not abusing her, merely that I saw a difference in how he was treating Sansa as opposed to Myranda or Theon, and that that might be something Sansa could capitalize on.

his treatment of her is actually quiet similar to theons, he has locked her up and rapes and beats her every night. He locked theon up and tortured him every night. he starts by using psychical tactics, them he moves on to more mental tactics. He ultimate goal is to break Sansa down into his loyal subject who obeys his every command. What I find interesting Newstar, is what will be rooses reaction to his treatment of Sansa. I would think that he would be pretty upset that Ramsay is torturing the key to the north, but he also needs ramsay to help defeat stannis. Roose may have to endure Ramsays behavior.

[Piolina]

Bran isn't having any kids and Rickon may or may not have heirs. Even if he does, should something happen to them, then it goes to the Bolton child.

I am not sure how everything will play out at the end. However, Sansa makes it explicit to Ramsay that he is a legitimized bastard, a legitimization done by another bastard, Tommen. I guess it will play out according to how Westeros overall views Tommen, Ramsay and Sansa's child, if she ever has one. Her child might be considered a bastard by the North.

[starklover]

if she's pregnant it would give her more of a reason to get away. who know what ramsay would do to the baby.

[rosehustle1]

What doesn't make sense to me is why Ramsay abuses her if he's trying to get her pregnant? The beatings could cause her to miscarry. Raping her with brutality could cause her internal damage as well. This is what I don't get the most about his behavior. He wants a dynasty with her but the things he is doing to her could destroy any potential pregnancy from occuring.

[Hath4]

What doesn't make sense to me is why Ramsay abuses her if he's trying to get her pregnant? The beatings could cause her to miscarry. Raping her with brutality could cause her internal damage as well. This is what I don't get the most about his behavior. He wants a dynasty with her but the things he is doing to her could destroy any potential pregnancy from occuring.

poor impulse control. His sadism as it always will, defies logic.

[starklover]

i am guessing that ramsay has an sadisic disorder. he loves hurting and seeing people in pain. He needs to have total control and power over people and he done though pain.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Maybe it's just me, but if Sansa's next move is to escape Winterfell, the question inevitably becomes, "Then why was she required to go there in the first place?" Considering how they had to contort the plot and turn both Sansa and Littlefinger into Idiots of the Year to get her there, doesn't it only make sense that the whole move should amount to something?

[Tagganaro]

Maybe it's just me, but if Sansa's next move is to escape Winterfell, the question inevitably becomes, "Then why was she required to go there in the first place?" Considering how they had to contort the plot and turn both Sansa and Littlefinger into Idiots of the Year to get her there, doesn't it only make sense that the whole move should amount to something?

It did...in D & D's mind at least. They got their "shocking scene" in that got the internet all abuzz. I think they and HBO like that sort of attention and it probably helps them keep and draw viewers.

[The hairy bear]

Maybe it's just me, but if Sansa's next move is to escape Winterfell, the question inevitably becomes, "Then why was she required to go there in the first place?" Considering how they had to contort the plot and turn both Sansa and Littlefinger into Idiots of the Year to get her there, doesn't it only make sense that the whole move should amount to something?

That would be a very good question if the show was written by someone who cared about giving some justification to the characters and situations.

But in this show, at this point, we're wasting time. Instead, we should focus on Tyene's nice tits.

[rosehustle1]

Yeah, Sansa's storyline has lead up to nothing except for a possible cringe worthy pregnancy in the future. Someone made a good point that the creators made a decision to bench Bran's storyline because they wanted to do that story justice but they didn't have any qualms about destroying Sansa' Vale arc and basically making her Jeyne Poole. Why is it so hard for them to see the value in the female character's storylines?

[TheCasualObserver]

Maybe it's just me, but if Sansa's next move is to escape Winterfell, the question inevitably becomes, "Then why was she required to go there in the first place?" Considering how they had to contort the plot and turn both Sansa and Littlefinger into Idiots of the Year to get her there, doesn't it only make sense that the whole move should amount to something?

You can make the argument that Sansa thought she'd be able to manipulate or undermine the Boltons in some way and has since realized she can't. If you accept her decision to enter the marriage in the first place, the simplest explanation is that she was wrong and now needs to find a way to escape.

But in terms of characterization and plot in the broader context of the show that would be completely pointless and expose the rape as an entirely exploitative move.

In that instance, the only character trait which Sansa gets is one of stupidity. By asking Theon to light the candle only after she has been raped, the rhyme and reason has effectively abandoned the entire plot thread - why wouldn't she try and do that before?

[Piolina]

My mother is Unsullied and she was really perplexed about why people were surprised/upset about Sansa's rape. She told me, Sansa is weak, she was weak to even agree with LF and go along with this plan, what else would happen to her? And it really made me realize just how different this show!Sansa is from book!Sansa. She hadn't really become much more of a player - she's just sassy. That's great and all but she was always a little sassy. How has she really developed at all? Saving LF was the only step forward and everything else has been backwards.

ETA: I'm a huge Sansa fan - I'm definitely on the Queen Sansa train. But I don't disagree with my mother's assessment of show!Sansa entirely. I think she/her plot can still be redeemed somehow but it will be hard.

I agree with this assessment. My husband is an Unsullied too, and sees her as dumb and not an interesting character at all. The producers / writers never developed her as in the books. Few episodes back when she decided to marry the Ramsay, my husband commented that she is masochist (of course he was joking). I guess we, as viewers, have to accept that book Sansa and TV Sansa are totally different characters. I feel sorry for the book readers who lover her.

[rosehustle1]

What bothers me the most about the whole stupid storyline is that Sansa never asked more questions of Littlefinger about how to go about getting revenge. The only thing he told her was to make him hers, but she even said in that scene that she didn't know how. Why didn't she ask for more specifics? She knows she's going into a dangerous situation surrounded by enemies of her family and that these people are known for being treacherous. Why didn't she have an actual plan and why didn't the writers give her scenes that show she was at least trying to manipulate if not Ramsay then Roose or even Fat Walda.

[Newstar]

You can make the argument that Sansa thought she'd be able to manipulate or undermine the Boltons in some way and has since realized she can't. If you accept her decision to enter the marriage in the first place, the simplest explanation is that she was wrong and now needs to find a way to escape.

But in terms of characterization and plot in the broader context of the show that would be completely pointless and expose the rape as an entirely exploitative move.

In that instance, the only character trait which Sansa gets is one of stupidity. By asking Theon to light the candle only after she has been raped, the rhyme and reason has effectively abandoned the entire plot thread - why wouldn't she try and do that before?

Why would she request the candle being lit if she thought she could handle the Boltons? It seems that it was only after she was brutally raped that she realized what she was dealing with and that she was completely out of her depth, which is consistent with how the writers described Sansa in that episode.

Now, I guess you could say Sansa's mistake lay in failing to call in reinforcements before things got bad, but it seems as if she understood the candle to be the signal to be rescued from Winterfell and the Boltons, and she was disinclined to run before she was raped.

[Newstar]

Maybe it's just me, but if Sansa's next move is to escape Winterfell, the question inevitably becomes, "Then why was she required to go there in the first place?" Considering how they had to contort the plot and turn both Sansa and Littlefinger into Idiots of the Year to get her there, doesn't it only make sense that the whole move should amount to something?

Why was Jaime required to go to Dorne? Because they couldn't afford to give him his own plot and there were too many disparate storylines as it was. The same logic could be applied to Sansa: they couldn't afford to give her her own cast/plot and there were too many separate storylines already. If you're going to complain about Sansa's Vale arc being scrapped in favour of a Sansa/Winterfell plot mash up, you should be equally incensed about Jaime's Riverlands arc getting the chop.

As for why Sansa had to be raped (or at least lose her virginity), I have my own theory about that, although time will tell if I'm right.

[rosehustle1]

I was annoyed by the change to Jaime's plot line as well. A lot of people don't like what they did to Jaime's arc. But at least he has maintained his agency whereas Sansa's has been torn down with lightning speed.

[Grail King]

What doesn't make sense to me is why Ramsay abuses her if he's trying to get her pregnant? The beatings could cause her to miscarry. Raping her with brutality could cause her internal damage as well. This is what I don't get the most about his behavior. He wants a dynasty with her but the things he is doing to her could destroy any potential pregnancy from occuring.

I still wonder if the punches in KL will keep her from conceiving children?