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[Book Spoilers] EP509 Discussion

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I got your point and agree that changes have to be made but that does not excuse the sub par writing we got this season. That was my point. The Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne arcs that we got in the show were rather poor and it had nothing to do with logistics.

People tend to dislike Brienne's story in Feast and Tyrion's story in Dance anyway, so by that logic it's no worse than in the books. Personally I thought Tyrion's storyline has been dealt with brilliantly this season. His scenes with Varys, Jorah and then Dany were all excellent.

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I think people expecting that were mistaking GRRM showing that resurrection was possible in his world with people showing that Mel is going to do it.

I find the argument that Jon must be Lyanna's son on the basis of his looks to be utterly unconvincing because GRRM has shown us multiple ways of changing looks. Mel does it, the Faceless Men do it, even wilding wargs do it. Face changing is a part of GRRM's world. But the fact that he has given us three examples does not mean that he is limited to those.

Mel is the personification of evil. AAR is the personification of good. So Mel cannot raise AAR, it would be stupid.

I've yet to find one person who believes Jon is the son of Lyanna based ONLY on his looks. It's only one small part of the theory.

And we have no idea what AAR is like. We know that Azor Ahai killed the woman he loved to defeat evil. Well, Stannis thinks he's doing the same thing...why is the former 'good' and the latter 'bad'?

Mel is most definitely not the personification of evil. Her intentions are noble (saving the world), but her methods are terrible. Again, it's yet another example of 'do the ends justify the means?'

However, I do agree that I've never thought Melisandre was going to resurrect Jon. Because if she did, he would be seen as yet another one of her puppets, and I don't see anyone following him after that. If Dany can perform a miracle without the help of others, then surely Jon can, too.

Edited by sj4iy

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The Brienne storyline is not that far off. She's still searching for Sansa and it's not impossible that she still run into the BoB. That would actually be a great way to end her story line this season. The appearance of Lady Stoneheart and Brienne being hanged.

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The books will never be the show and the show will never be the books. The sooner people understand this, the sooner then can choose one (or both) to enjoy.



The show is the best thing on television. All this endless dribble about the show not doing the books justice is pointless at this point in the series.


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People tend to dislike Brienne's story in Feast and Tyrion's story in Dance anyway, so by that logic it's no worse than in the books. Personally I thought Tyrion's storyline has been dealt with brilliantly this season. His scenes with Varys, Jorah and then Dany were all excellent.

I am certainly not a huge fan of either Feast or Dance but I disagree with the bolded. To each their own, I suppose.

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Well whatever! It's worth it! Hire more people, do whatcha gotta do, they owe it to the integrity of this great story to do it right!!! Look how pissed Linda is! Has everyone seen her twitter feed?

HBO has enough money to get this right!

Elmo, Kermit, and Grover Tully. I need not say anymore on that.

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The Brienne storyline is not that far off. She's still searching for Sansa and it's not impossible that she still run into the BoB. That would actually be a great way to end her story line this season. The appearance of Lady Stoneheart and Brienne being hanged.

Yes. I'm still holding out hope for the Stoneheart reveal to end the season. Just seems like it can't be cut, and considering how gloomy this finale is gonna be (Ides of Marsh, Walk of Shame, etc.), I think that would be a good ending to bring back some "hell yeah" fistpumping moment right after the Ides (which will be the 2nd to last scene). Except I don't think it will be Brienne hanging since that would just be extra gloomy lol. Best possible ending for me would be something like Stannis winning Winterfell, Roose managing to escape, then go through the whole Merrett Frey ASOS Epilogue just with Roose instead of Merrett.

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The Brienne storyline is not that far off. She's still searching for Sansa and it's not impossible that she still run into the BoB. That would actually be a great way to end her story line this season. The appearance of Lady Stoneheart and Brienne being hanged.

Yes. I'm still holding out hope for the Stoneheart reveal to end the season. Just seems like it can't be cut, and considering how gloomy this finale is gonna be (Ides of Marsh, Walk of Shame, etc.), I think that would be a good ending to bring back some "hell yeah" fistpumping moment right after the Ides (which will be the 2nd to last scene). Except I don't think it will be Brienne hanging since that would just be extra gloomy lol. Best possible ending for me would be something like Stannis winning Winterfell, Roose managing to escape, then go through the whole Merrett Frey ASOS Epilogue just with Roose instead of Merrett.

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I think we can all accept that the show has to operate under certain constraints, however that does not excuse the poor writing we've had this season. The show is not even internally consistent and that comes down to sloppiness. I didn't mind Sansa popping up at Winterfell but the execution of that plotline has been rather poor. Seems like the entire WF plotline is in service to Ramsay. Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, are any of their storylines better than their Feast and Dance storylines? Not in my opinion.

If anything the storyline is a service to all three actors, first of all Sophie Turner who is at her best here. Alfie Allen and Iwan Rheon are as great as they had been before already. No, it is more a feast for Turner as actress.

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People tend to dislike Brienne's story in Feast and Tyrion's story in Dance anyway, so by that logic it's no worse than in the books. Personally I thought Tyrion's storyline has been dealt with brilliantly this season. His scenes with Varys, Jorah and then Dany were all excellent.

As much as I love th character of Tyrion I wished they had more explored the dark side of his arc, as victim and as abuser. But that may be me, I want my favorites in every nuance, I have no problem to continue rooting for them. While show only audience might be bothered by too much greyness. After all it was not Cersei who killed Robert's kids and Sandor did not assualt Sansa in the show.

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It seems like he has gotten more screen time than Sansa, certainly more than Theon, who has barely had any lines. And now that his badass self has destroyed Stannis army of 5000 with 20 men, he does seem like the star of the Winterfell story.

I don't think that is true at all. The Winterfell story which was essentially Theon's in the books is now Sansa's on the show. I don't where in the world people are coming up with this idea that it is all about Ramsey.

(and what is up with these ridiculous statements like Ramsey's 20 men destroying Stannis army? He burned some suppleas and food, that is it)

Edited by El Guapo

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Well in their minds they're probably thinking "How can we protect the wall from White Walkers if we have to fight a war with these savages who will try to kill us in our sleep." It makes sense from their perspective, they've been sworn enemies for as long as anyone knows. Any major change within a society no matter how small will be met with mostly opposition at first. Add onto the fact that the NW food stores are now in major jeopardy with the addition of all the Wildling mouths to feed, the majority of NWmen will feel their lives and longevity threatened.

All very good points!

What though does killing Jon accomplish now that the deed is done? It would have made more sense for it to be done beforehand thereby stopping his mission to the north.

So if it Ollie acting on his own it is revenge and only revenge. There are no more Wildings to rescue so he isn't stopping Jon "for the greater good". And if the other Crows jump in it makes even less sense.

I'd have to think then Jon's death would be about something else like the letter (Jon running off to help Stannis/rescue Sansa etc.). But if that is the case why would Ollie be involved? They have set him up as only caring that the Wildlings murdered his family. Unless it is just a free-for-all.

It will be interesting to see how they do it.

Now watch, after all this speculation Jon doesn't receive so much as a scratch in the next episode and they drop the stabby McStabathon entirely.

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The show is the best thing on television. All this endless dribble about the show not doing the books justice is pointless at this point in the series.

It's not even the best thing on HBO, imo. That honor belongs to Silicon Valley.

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This episode was the Stannis's fanbase battle of the Blackwater. All the Knight of the Summer who've joined him since Renly died the Show aired have deserted him. Now remain the bookreaders, his true and stalwart men, the only men the Mannis needs.


Edited by Skaraher

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As much as I love th character of Tyrion I wished they had more explored the dark side of his arc, as victim and as abuser. But that may be me, I want my favorites in every nuance, I have no problem to continue rooting for them. While show only audience might be bothered by too much greyness. After all it was not Cersei who killed Robert's kids and Sandor did not assualt Sansa in the show.

:agree:

I miss Tyrion being a depressed asshole in the Rhoynar. :(

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I don't think that is true at all. The Winterfell story which was essentially Theon's in the books is now Sansa's on the show. I don't where in the world people are coming up with this idea that it is all about Ramsey.

(and what is up with these ridiculous statements like Ramsey's 20 men destroying Stannis army? He burned some suppleas and food, that is it)

And apparently that alone was enough to get Stannis to go "ok, let's burn my baby girl" with laughable swiftness.

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Second watch...fuck this one just fell flat for me. I really liked episode 8, this...ehhhh. Stannis destruction aside it was still mediocre. I liked the CG on Drogon, but hell, him saving the day was so lame compared to Dany running in confusion and taking control almost by accident (or personal nature). I don't get Dorne, I hate Dorne in the book in the sense that it is my least favourite, but shit, I just don't get it. I figured with Jaime and Bronn it would be a pretty large part of the season, but nothing has happened. Nobody has done anything. It's...pointless. Myrcella and Trys are empty shells. Doran who looks amazing and his small screen time is excellent has 4 lines.


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I don't get Dorne, I hate Dorne in the book in the sense that it is my least favourite, but shit, I just don't get it. I figured with Jaime and Bronn it would be a pretty large part of the season, but nothing has happened. Nobody has done anything. It's...pointless. Myrcella and Trys are empty shells. Doran who looks amazing and his small screen time is excellent has 4 lines.

I'm gonna go heretical and say that, just this one week, I actually enjoyed Dorne. It didn't make any more sense than usual, but if you lower your expectations from "ASOIAF adaptation" to "something mindless that I watch before the work week starts," then most of the jokes land. Especially that bit about the soup. And Dr. Bashir had more lines than usual, which is always a plus.

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Some people's reactions are so funny. Stannis was never a good guy to begin with. He killed his own brother for no other reason than to win the Iron Throne. Why was that OK for his character, but this burning his own daughter was somehow morally different?

I think there's a difference between Stannis killing his brother, who willingly and knowingly tried to take his place on the throne (and kill him in the process) and murdering his only heir in cold blood not too long after having a huge monologue explaining how he was stubborn enough and loving enough to save her from greyscale when she was a baby, despite the odds being against him. Shireen was an innocent child, Renly was a grown ass man who knew what he was getting into when he entered the war. With that being said, I don't think anyone believed that Stannis was a saint. But he has shown that he cares for his daughter and wouldn't let her be harmed.

Stannis sacrificing Shireen is not only morally wrong and out of character, but stupid. It makes no sense for him to get rid of his only heir just for ... what, exactly? Food? As people have said before, this isn't the first time Stannis has been faced with hardship. He's been starved in war before, that never stopped him. He wouldn't give up his only heir (who, in the show anyway, he loves immensely) just so his men won't starve. I can see him sacrificing her for an extreme circumstance, (like if her death would save everyone from the white walkers or something) but this? It was just bad writing on D&D's part. Even if GRRM is doing it in the books, he'll probably have it make sense, at least.

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