Rant and Rave without Repercussion [Book Spoilers]

[TeethGrinder]

Stannis showed more resistance to burning Edric in the books than Shireen in the show rofl.

Genuinely done with the show now. Couldn't even watch the final scene without that ridiculous bullshit in my head.

[Le Cygne]

I am beginning to get annoyed with Ramsay always succeeding all the time. He's gotta get some comeuppance sometime, right?

Dumb and Dumber have lost their minds.

Honestly at this point they appear to have sacrificed good storytelling so they can be edgy. Though they've been doing that for a while now.

Yeah, they LOVE Ramsay. He got the best of Stannis. Hell, they even gave him a girlfriend. Theon was the POV, but he's barely had a moment or two. "Sansa" is playing a minor character. Roose, who is Roose.

[Troy Reynolds]

lol, do you honestly believe this?

Yes, they wanted a shock moment. There is no other reason to take Shereen, Selyse and Mel with him other than to have him burn her in a situation in which he doesn't in the books. He marches his troops south to Winterfell, starving and dying, through sheer force of will. You know, how a stubborn, determined person would.

One couldn't even argue that they wanted to trim the cast, because the writers made a conscious decision to keep the actress and character around, when the simplest solution is to just leave her at Dragonstone.

They built up the relationship, gave Shireen tons of screen time and unending "awe" moments, so the man, who even in the show survived a year long siege of Storms End through a lot worse crap than what he has at this moment, burn his daughter at the first sign of adversity. The only other possibilities are a conscious desire to character assassinate Stannis, or they are just hack fucking writers failing to get across whatever bullshit they are trying to get across.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Well, damn.

Let's dispense with the obvious. Ramsay's "twenty good men" turned out to be Rambo-style commandos who completely infiltrated Stannis' camp and simultaneously set fires on all their provisions. They were able to do this because they were Northmen, and instead of having Northmen whom he recruited from various houses and the mountain clans, Stannis has sellswords. Thus, in the implausible to impossible situation Jafar & Iago contrived, Stannis had no choice, right? Whatever their interpretation of Stannis, whether as a protagonist or antihero, Stannis is certainly not evil. Indeed, although not loved by his men, he is respected for being just and honorable. Although allured by Mel's power, he is resistant to her fanaticism. The show's version of this is to make him a puritanical absolutist who burns infidels and now his own daughter (and only heir). Maybe he's secretly a member of the Faith Taliban? Should we expect a seven-pointed star on his forehead next week? In all seriousness, though, Stannis is now as evil as anyone on the show. The character assassination which us "Stannis fanboys" sensed from the start is now complete. Having the actually crazy Selyse lose her nerve but he overruled by the ruthless, remorseless Stannis was a nice twist of the dagger.

Even without Shireen's bloodcurdling screams of pain - seriously, two grown men actually write and direct such filth - the episode was an atrocity.

Mace Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Warden of the South, and head of arguably the most powerful house in Westeros, is a pathetic buffoon. Honestly, they've written him as an overgrown child. Just as they took all of Tyrion's solipsistic rationale at face value and made him a martyr, they've accepted Olenna's low opinion of her son as Gospel truth. I am glad that a whole new brothel was introduced, though. Braavos was really lacking that.

Dorne...what a laugher. It all ends with Myrcella and Trystane going to Dorne to replace Oberyn on the council - something Doran should have done anyway. Thus, Jaime and Bronn's buddy comedy in the emerald hills of Dorne served no purpose whatsoever. It advanced the narrative in no appreciable way and developed none of the characters, unless of course you count Ellaria, who bonds with Jaime over "wanting who we want." As punishment for striking the Prince of Dorne, all Bronn gets is a punch in the face. HAHA, GOOD ONE! That punch couldn't have hurt that much under all that plot armor.

All of Jafar & Iago's self-indulgent writing with Tyrion gives me violent urges. As usual, Tyrion is right about everything and is so much smarter than everyone else. The plague-ridden Jorah touched Dany, which confirms that his contagiousness was never really taken into account. Drogon's return was a pale shadow of the same scene in the books. By the end, it seemed like he was getting his ass kicked by those spears and that Dany hopped on him to lead him to safety.

The most depressing thing of all to me is that fandom is not even united against this imposter of an adaptation. In spite of the fact that Jafar & Iago are stomping and spitting on ASOAIF, they will still be defended and anyone with objections - like, about turning characters into rape victims and child murderers - will be dismissed as "purists."

[The Ghost of Winter]

Yeah, they LOVE Ramsay. He got the best of Stannis. Hell, they even gave him a girlfriend. Theon was the POV, but he's barely had a moment or two. "Sansa" is playing a minor character. Roose, who is Roose.

Sansa's arc is the other biggest tragedy along with Stannis'. Ugh I'm so over the Winterfell story right now. Of course they love Ramsay, he's a crazy but magically witty fellow. They may as well just have the characters yell "We have no idea what we're doing!" at this point.

[SOSRadio]

Yeah, they LOVE Ramsay. He got the best of Stannis. Hell, they even gave him a girlfriend. Theon was the POV, but he's barely had a moment or two. "Sansa" is playing a minor character. Roose, who is Roose.

Agreed. Ramsay might as well be 'Dark Tyrion' at this point. Hell, after this episode, people are going to be rooting for him against Stannis.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Yes, they wanted a shock moment. There is no other reason to take Shereen, Selyse and Mel with him other than to have him burn her in a situation in which he doesn't in the books. He marches his troops south to Winterfell, starving and dying, through sheer force of will. You know, how a stubborn, determined person would.

One couldn't even argue that they wanted to trim the cast, because the writers made a conscious decision to keep the actress and character around, when the simplest solution is to just leave her at Dragonstone.

They built up the relationship, gave Shireen tons of screen time and unending "awe" moments, so the man, who even in the show survived a year long siege of Storms End through a lot worse crap than what he has at this moment, burn his daughter at the first sign of adversity. The only other possibilities are a conscious desire to character assassinate Stannis, or they are just hack fucking writers failing to get across whatever bullshit they are trying to get across.

This. There is no story economy reason to bring Shireen and Selyse along. And bringing along your only heir on a military campaign in foreign territory contradicts any form of logic, as Stannis would have to leave some of his men behind for supply line reasons at Castle Black anyways. The reasons was the shock value of having Stannis decide to burn her, despite it making little sense with what they had estabilished in the show, let along the source material.

[direpoodle]

Ugh this show just continues to disappoint. My first impressions:

-I don't believe Stannis would burn Shireen.

Even though I suppose it's confirmed she'll be burned in Winds, it will be Melisandre, I don't think Stannis will have anything to do with it.

Just a few episodes ago he talked about how much he loved her and did everything to save her from Greyscale. Why change his mind like that? Now the throne is nothing because he has no heir. Also so stupid to send Davos away.

-Good thing Ramsay somehow got through the snow that Stannis couldn't, just to set some fires like a teenage punk anarchist. If he could actually pull that off, why not just assassinate Stannis. Threat gone.

-I think that brothel scene in Braavos went too far by having the young girl there.

I understand how it's supposed to mirror the Arya chapter in TWOW

but to me the scene went on for too long, and made too much of it. Why go through so much trouble to show he's a pedophile? It's not necessary. I really don't need to see that.

-Daznak's pit. What? The sons of the harpy popped up like bad movie monsters. HIzdahr's dead? And had nothing to do with the Sons of the Harpy? Why even have him there, and get Dany to marry him? Also Jorah touched Dany with his greyscaly hands. I guess they forgot about that. Daenerys flying off on Drogon just didn't feel earned at this point, since the rest of her storyline isn't there.

-Dorne. Good thing they replaced the interesting Arianne, with a petty childish Trystane. Doran's an idiot if he's going to send his heir to the Lannisters, the most dangerous possible place for him. Ellaria just needed a good talking-to to get over her whole revenge thing. She's all cool now, no worries. All the people who were expecting Bronn to side with or be controlled by the Sand Snakes just got shut down, that story didn't go anywhere.

[Takyon]

For those show apologists that will be defending Shireen's burning cause it happens in the book. I will admit the scene was very powerful on the show and I don't have a problem with the show making Stannis a villain, which he clearly is at this point. Ok, whether it is part of ASOIAF or not (Stannis sacrificing Shireen), fine, it is a character arc for Stannis to travel through and could have worked quite well. One doesn't have to argue as a book purist to point out the problems with the show only story telling. Yes they set this scene up for a while, Stannis has been burning people, that has been established. Yes they have established the power of king's blood. Yes they have shown Stannis to be stubborn man-ambitious like D&D say? NO, he is not ambitious he has a strong and unbreakable conviction of what he must do, there is a difference, though not necessarily important for this argument.

The problem is they have also shown Stannis's doubts about the red god. They have shown him to be a pragmatic man.

They did NOT establish that Stannis has fully bought into the red god. Their own lazy story telling, by not killing Balon, impacts the watcher's ability to believe Stannis would make this decision.

They did not establish what was at stake. It has been shown in show that Stannis will fight through all adversity, not cave in, he has iron will. They did not establish that Stannis was in such a desperate straight as to justify this decision.

And more importantly they did not establish what Stannis had to gain from this sacrifice. Previously he gained a way to Kill Renly and a way into the Storm's End castle and to kill the usurpers, specific goals. Nothing is established as to why Stannis would accept this sacrifice.

It Stannis is to sacrifice his daughter and his legacy, we as viewers must understand, from Stannis's perspective, that it is necessary, that he believes it will be successful and will get him something worth the cost. D&D simply did not achieve that end.

And that is piss poor story telling. The writers did not justify the scene, therefore the scene fails. Powerful yes, emotional yes, but as those initial emotions pass, one wonders WTF.

Took the words right out of my brain. Thanks for that.

[The Ghost of Winter]

Agreed. Ramsay might as well be 'Dark Tyrion' at this point. Hell, after this episode, people are going to be rooting for him against Stannis.

I think the Others should just kill them all now. Can't root for either side to be honest.

[SerMixalot]

I also want to point out the further whitewashing of Dany. Her pit scene in the book was very grey, lots of people died and it was STARTED by Drogon attacking in the pit. in the show, Drogon comes to the rescue and as far as I could tell only killed bad guys. No interesting grey to be seen.

[LadySoftheart]

OK, so I'm going to confess that I don't actually like Stannis all that much ("What is the life of one bastard boy against an entire kingdom?" kind of sealed the deal on that for me!) HOWEVER ... and this is a huge HOWEVER ... I cannot imagine that he would countenance burning his own child, his only heir, simply because he lost his supplies on Day 3 of his trip to Winterfell. This is the guy who lived on rats and smuggled onions, and this honestly makes no sense for him whatsoever. If he were promised a dragon of his own, or something as big as that, I can see him (very reluctantly) consenting but ... I don't think this little jaunt to Winterfell has nearly the gravitas it would take for him to kill his own kid.

Also, and this is a more minor nitpick, but if you're going to call the episode "The Dance of Dragons", there needs to be more than one dragon. Unless Dany and Drogon were waltzing together or something, but really ... is this just another title meant to piss off book-readers?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I also want to point out the further whitewashing of Dany. Her pit scene in the book was very grey, lots of people died and it was STARTED by Drogon attacking in the pit. in the show, Drogon comes to the rescue and as far as I could tell only killed bad guys. No interesting grey to be seen.

Jorah disagrees. Oh, wait, you said interesting.

[SerMixalot]

oh and show Davos will NEVER support Stannis again, it wont happen, it aint gonna happen, it will not happen, it cant happen

OH and btw we should all notice the milestone that GOT reached. They had a brothel scene and not one nipple was shown.

[The Northern Scholar]

Yeah, they LOVE Ramsay. He got the best of Stannis. Hell, they even gave him a girlfriend. Theon was the POV, but he's barely had a moment or two. "Sansa" is playing a minor character. Roose, who is Roose.

Didn't Theon's actor say the Boltons would be around until the end or something along those lines?

[Fury Burns]

I also want to point out the further whitewashing of Dany. Her pit scene in the book was very grey, lots of people died and it was STARTED by Drogon attacking in the pit. in the show, Drogon comes to the rescue and as far as I could tell only killed bad guys. No interesting grey to be seen.

I think I saw an unsullied get caught in one of the blasts of fire while he was fighting off the harpies. Also, there was a man without a mask and a woman without a mask... I assumed they were both civilians, and Drogon burned them.

[R4W13Y]

All I have to say is...Stannis better fucking win the Battle for Winterfell. He had better wipe the floor with Roose's troops after sacrificing his only heir.

Well, damn.

Let's dispense with the obvious. Ramsay's "twenty good men" turned out to be Rambo-style commandos who completely infiltrated Stannis' camp and simultaneously set fires on all their provisions. They were able to do this because they were Northmen, and instead of having Northmen whom he recruited from various houses and the mountain clans, Stannis has sellswords. Thus, in the implausible to impossible situation Jafar & Iago contrived, Stannis had no choice, right? Whatever their interpretation of Stannis, whether as a protagonist or antihero, Stannis is certainly not evil. Indeed, although not loved by his men, he is respected for being just and honorable. Although allured by Mel's power, he is resistant to her fanaticism. The show's version of this is to make him a puritanical absolutist who burns infidels and now his own daughter (and only heir). Maybe he's secretly a member of the Faith Taliban? Should we expect a seven-pointed star on his forehead next week? In all seriousness, though, Stannis is now as evil as anyone on the show. The character assassination which us "Stannis fanboys" sensed from the start is now complete. Having the actually crazy Selyse lose her nerve but he overruled by the ruthless, remorseless Stannis was a nice twist of the dagger.

Even without Shireen's bloodcurdling screams of pain - seriously, two grown men actually write and direct such filth - the episode was an atrocity.

Mace Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden, Warden of the South, and head of arguably the most powerful house in Westeros, is a pathetic buffoon. Honestly, they've written him as an overgrown child. Just as they took all of Tyrion's solipsistic rationale at face value and made him a martyr, they've accepted Olenna's low opinion of her son as Gospel truth. I am glad that a whole new brothel was introduced, though. Braavos was really lacking that.

Dorne...what a laugher. It all ends with Myrcella and Trystane going to Dorne to replace Oberyn on the council - something Doran should have done anyway. Thus, Jaime and Bronn's buddy comedy in the emerald hills of Dorne served no purpose whatsoever. It advanced the narrative in no appreciable way and developed none of the characters, unless of course you count Ellaria, who bonds with Jaime over "wanting who we want." As punishment for striking the Prince of Dorne, all Bronn gets is a punch in the face. HAHA, GOOD ONE! That punch couldn't have hurt that much under all that plot armor.

All of Jafar & Iago's self-indulgent writing with Tyrion gives me violent urges. As usual, Tyrion is right about everything and is so much smarter than everyone else. The plague-ridden Jorah touched Dany, which confirms that his contagiousness was never really taken into account. Drogon's return was a pale shadow of the same scene in the books. By the end, it seemed like he was getting his ass kicked by those spears and that Dany hopped on him to lead him to safety.

The most depressing thing of all to me is that fandom is not even united against this imposter of an adaptation. In spite of the fact that Jafar & Iago are stomping and spitting on ASOAIF, they will still be defended and anyone with objections - like, about turning characters into rape victims and child murderers - will be dismissed as "purists."

:bowdown:

[teej6]

The way Dumb and Dumber is interpreting GRRM's books, we'll probably end up rooting for the White Walkers by season 7. At this point, I feel the only characters they care about is Dany, Tyrion and Cersei, which is evident from all the whitewashing going on with their characters on the show. So instead of Cersei being a full blown crazy sociopath, we get a loving mother who's surrounded by conniving and ruthless opponents. D&D has long since said f..k off to the books and book fans and said we are doing this our way -- which means how do we up the shock value season after season. IIRC, Benioff in a recent interview didn't know that Sam is a POV. I just hope GRRM will come out and distance himself from this crap. But I feel he's too much of decent human being to do that.

[SerMixalot]

Weiss in Inside the Episode

"[Arya] has been playing the game of faces"

She has? WHen was that? Must have been some deleted scenes

DO they hear themselves? Someone should check their hearing. Seriously these guys need hearing aids, I think medicare covers hearing aids, even get a funnel to put in their ears.

[CornCornSnow]

Was anyone else getting a "NeverEnding Story" vibe from Dany riding Drogon?