Has the show lost it's heart?

[xjlxking]

What rating are you talking about please? IMDB? Jesus, are you serious? Is that your argument? Why didn't you say right away? You'd save me lot of time because I wouldn't waste single letter arguing with someone who worships IMDB ratings.

Oh and that other part is precious. "This is mostly opinion and I'm not going to address it". Just so you know, I asked you direct question and you failed to answer because you can't have any reasonable answer. I asked you for your opinion and you failed to provide it. And that is all one needs to know about ratings of the show.

I'm taking about IMDB, Metacritics, rotten tomatoes..etc. Various website!

I think I answered your question. It's mostly your opinion. I guess, to make it more understanding; it doesn't matter what me and you think. I can do the same thing about the novels, I can do it for various shows that you yourself named very good like BB, Wire, Sopranos. Ironically, these shows also have "flaws" much like the one you nitpicked. As a matter of fact, I look at the show and I say, it's GREAT. I think S1-3 were superbly done, capturing the world that GRRM created in ways I could not imagine. S4-5 were more merky and I not a big fan; I still watch the show, I still like it and regard it as a WHOLE a good/great show.

REGARDLESS though, that is my opinion only. The show itself is doing good, it's successful in every way. Since you mentioned the Emmy, it was nominated; it has the most viewers for any HBO show; again its' rating are very high by both the critics and viewers. It's the most pirated show, clearly, it's not only successful but also a great show. Quite honestly, if you disagree, it just proves your point before; that you watch the show despite not liking it, which again, destroys your own argument.

AS far as it being a adaption, I've told you, this is not debate able. If the author doesn't like, I'm sure he would make it clear; after all, did you say something like that before. I'd like those links please, it's been more than 8 hours, no?

[xjlxking]

Are you disapproving unmistakable IMDB ratings? Are you saying something can be wrong with almighty IMDB ratings? You are just going to stand there and tell me that IMDB ratings are not the best thing our poor species received from heaven ever since Ten Commandments? Some nerve you have...

Yeah, i know. I tend to get most of my information based on my opinions. Like how you associated books viewers with yourself. Do tell, where did you get that information? Surely, you didn't make it up.

I also tend to think the audience itself likes the shows based on my own view. After all, i'm the center of the audience here; I hated Mad Men, it's a bad show. Most people age 21 hate it!

[StepStark]

I'm taking about IMDB, Metacritics, rotten tomatoes..etc. Various website!

I think I answered your question. It's mostly your opinion. I guess, to make it more understanding; it doesn't matter what me and you think. I can do the same thing about the novels, I can do it for various shows that you yourself named very good like BB, Wire, Sopranos. Ironically, these shows also have "flaws" much like the one you nitpicked. As a matter of fact, I look at the show and I say, it's GREAT. I think S1-3 were superbly done, capturing the world that GRRM created in ways I could not imagine. S4-5 were more merky and I not a big fan; I still watch the show, I still like it and regard it as a WHOLE a good/great show.

REGARDLESS though, that is my opinion only. The show itself is doing good, it's successful in every way. Since you mentioned the Emmy, it was nominated; it has the most viewers for any HBO show; again its' rating are very high by both the critics and viewers. It's the most pirated show, clearly, it's not only successful but also a great show. Quite honestly, if you disagree, it just proves your point before; that you watch the show despite not liking it, which again, destroys your own argument.

AS far as it being a adaption, I've told you, this is not debate able. If the author doesn't like, I'm sure he would make it clear; after all, did you say something like that before. I'd like those links please, it's been more than 8 hours, no?

What links? I really don't know what are you talking about. What did I failed to post?

About Sopranos and Wire, please find anything that is as ridiculous as this scene from GOT of which I'm talking about. Breaking Bad has some silly scenes, but I don't think even they made anything that stupid. In fact I don't think that even Lost had anything as ridiculous as that man hiding inside walls. Im also pretty certain that Mad Men don't have anything as absurd. And same goes for Sansa marrying Ramsay and for Stannis burning Shireen and especially for Dorne.

But what is really sad is that IMDB is your opinion. I ask you of your opinion and you answer with IMDB ratings. You don't know how to answer direct question so you let IMDB answer for you. That is really sad. Honestly I don't know anyone in real life who lets IMDB do his thinking for him.

[xjlxking]

What links? I really don't know what are you talking about. What did I failed to post?

About Sopranos and Wire, please find anything that is as ridiculous as this scene from GOT of which I'm talking about. Breaking Bad has some silly scenes, but I don't think even they made anything that stupid. In fact I don't think that even Lost had anything as ridiculous as that man hiding inside walls. Im also pretty certain that Mad Men don't have anything as absurd. And same goes for Sansa marrying Ramsay and for Stannis burning Shireen and especially for Dorne.

But what is really sad is that IMDB is your opinion. I ask you of your opinion and you answer with IMDB ratings. You don't know how to answer direct question so you let IMDB answer for you. That is really sad. Honestly I don't know anyone in real life who lets IMDB do his thinking for him.

The part that is in bold, apparently, the author likes it. He said even though it didn't happen in the book, he doesn't mind. Considers it part of a great show

You said the writer is distancing himself of the show because it's bad, because they betrayed him, because it's not an adaption. Said something about GRRM saying he disproves of the show. I'm waiting for those links. You also talked about many book readers are going to stop watching the show..etc. I'd like to see where you got that from, a link or something., or is this just you reading the post of a few members as associating the word with many.

No, I'm telling you that despite my opinion of the show, I'm but one person. My opinion does not determine if the show is good. My dad for example hate...and i mean HATES Breaking bad. How stupid some characters are, mainly, that cop, Gus,..etc. Unfortunately for him, general audience disagrees. The show is great, we know this through different statistics; ratings of viewers, critics, how many people watch the show; comparing it with tv series that are considered substitutes..etc.

I did answer your question. Quite frankly, it just seems that you think that if I agree with you, that it means the show is stupid or bad. And if you read my post, I posted my though on that just you nitpicked scenario but the entire show, and the seasons individually. It just seems you have tunnel vision in terms of what you want me to say. So once more, where did I say that IMDB does my thinking for me? The fact is, I'm able to understand that my opinion is just an opinion of one person against a huge amount. You can call the people who watch GOT stupid for that reason, but I'd assume you include yourself and everyone on this forum, right? What is sad is that you associate your opinion as it being the end of any debate. You think X is bad, so it is. No, it's just bad for you; 8M people seems to disagree with you.

[kissdbyfire]

The part that is in bold, apparently, the author likes it. He said even though it didn't happen in the book, he doesn't mind. Considers it part of a great show

You said the writer is distancing himself of the show because it's bad, because they betrayed him, because it's not an adaption. Said something about GRRM saying he disproves of the show. I'm waiting for those links. You also talked about many book readers are going to stop watching the show..etc. I'd like to see where you got that from, a link or something., or is this just you reading the post of a few members as associating the word with many.

No, I'm telling you that despite my opinion of the show, I'm but one person. My opinion does not determine if the show is good. My dad for example hate...and i mean HATES Breaking bad. How stupid some characters are, mainly, that cop, Gus,..etc. Unfortunately for him, general audience disagrees. The show is great, we know this through different statistics; ratings of viewers, critics, how many people watch the show; comparing it with tv series that are considered substitutes..etc.

I did answer your question. Quite frankly, it just seems that you think that if I agree with you, that it means the show is stupid or bad. And if you read my post, I posted my though on that just you nitpicked scenario but the entire show, and the seasons individually. It just seems you have tunnel vision in terms of what you want me to say. So once more, where did I say that IMDB does my thinking for me? The fact is, I'm able to understand that my opinion is just an opinion of one person against a huge amount. You can call the people who watch GOT stupid for that reason, but I'd assume you include yourself and everyone on this forum, right? What is sad is that you associate your opinion as it being the end of any debate. You think X is bad, so it is. No, it's just bad for you; 8M people seems to disagree with you.

I didn't know that. Can you provide a link?

[xjlxking]

I didn't know that. Can you provide a link?

This isn't the link i read, but I assume the quote him all the same

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/04/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-rape-reality-of-war

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/11614634/George-RR-Martin-defends-Game-of-Thrones-rape.html

Here is one that should end the subject

"There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original Walking Dead comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become.

"And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email."

Of the show's creators, Martin wrote: "David [benioff] and Dan [Weiss] and Bryan [Cogman] and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can."

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, I had read those before. The first one talks about the books, and how and why there is sexual violence in them. Nothing new.

The second, well, there are different ways to interpret what he says. I'll say this, I would never expect Martin to badmouth the show. Ever. He's said it himself, he doesn't like when authors sell the rights to their novels, accept a truckload of cash, and then bitch about the adaptation.

But really, when he says, 'they are trying make the best television series they can'...

[StepStark]

The part that is in bold, apparently, the author likes it. He said even though it didn't happen in the book, he doesn't mind. Considers it part of a great show

You said the writer is distancing himself of the show because it's bad, because they betrayed him, because it's not an adaption. Said something about GRRM saying he disproves of the show. I'm waiting for those links. You also talked about many book readers are going to stop watching the show..etc. I'd like to see where you got that from, a link or something., or is this just you reading the post of a few members as associating the word with many.

No, I'm telling you that despite my opinion of the show, I'm but one person. My opinion does not determine if the show is good. My dad for example hate...and i mean HATES Breaking bad. How stupid some characters are, mainly, that cop, Gus,..etc. Unfortunately for him, general audience disagrees. The show is great, we know this through different statistics; ratings of viewers, critics, how many people watch the show; comparing it with tv series that are considered substitutes..etc.

I did answer your question. Quite frankly, it just seems that you think that if I agree with you, that it means the show is stupid or bad. And if you read my post, I posted my though on that just you nitpicked scenario but the entire show, and the seasons individually. It just seems you have tunnel vision in terms of what you want me to say. So once more, where did I say that IMDB does my thinking for me? The fact is, I'm able to understand that my opinion is just an opinion of one person against a huge amount. You can call the people who watch GOT stupid for that reason, but I'd assume you include yourself and everyone on this forum, right? What is sad is that you associate your opinion as it being the end of any debate. You think X is bad, so it is. No, it's just bad for you; 8M people seems to disagree with you.

Listen, enough is enough. You are wasting my time. That link you provided doesn't say anything about GRRM's opinion about controversial scenes this season. He talks about general portrayal of rape and other crimes in his novels. It is totally disingenuous to think that that has anything to do with Sansa's rape in the show. He doesn't talk about that at all. He wrote the story exactly the way he wanted in the books, and in the books there is NOTHING as stupid as Sansa marrying Ramsay! Now go ahead and bring 8 million viewers and IMDB ratings. There is nothing in all those other shows as stupid as Sansa marrying Ramsay. Ask your father to find anything in Breaking Bad that is as stupid as Sansa marrying Ramsay and I'm sure he won't be able to because NOTHING in BB is on that level of stupidity.

And please don't embarrass yourself any more. You are unable to answer one direct question: is arrest of that man who was hiding inside walls logical or isn't? What is that man arrested for? Why was he hiding? How did he get inside walls? Answer any of this questions if you can. And if you can't then please tell me how can that scene make any sense. But of course that you can't because it doesn't make any sense. This has nothing to do with IMDB ratings but it has only to do with you and your opinion if you have one at all.

About links, watch Elio and Linda latest video in which they explain why are they quitting the show. They are GRRM's friends and collaborators. Go to GRRM's site and you will see that he doesn't have any news about the show. His only comments about the show were about the Sansa controversy and he only said that show is the show and books are the books. And he also told something about butterfly effects becoming dragon effects which is a sign. And then there is GRRM's UK publisher who openly bashed the show. About many book readers that are about to quit the show just read some sections on this forum and you'll see what Im talking about.

But what is most hypocritical is this: if only thing that matters is IMDB ratings and critics then why are you even arguing with me? If my opinion and your opinion are meaningless then don't waste my and your time. I can spend that time debating people who actually have opinion and want to discuss my opinion, and you can spend that time watching IMDB ratings. And we're both going to be happy.

[kissdbyfire]

Here's another interview:

Another character missed by Martin is Sansa’s young friend Jeyne Poole, who accompanies the Stark family to King’s Landing and later marries Ramsay Bolton. “She’s a minor character in the first book, then vanishes and then—boom—there she is in the fifth book in a major way,” Martin says. The Ramsay marriage storyline has now been given to Sansa, a move that’s caused some controversy among the show’s book-reading fans.

“And in the Tyrell family, Loras is not the eldest son in the books,” Martin points out. “There are two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. I didn’t just put them in for hoots and giggles, they have roles to play in the last two books, and they don’t exist in the show.
<...>
“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”

[Winter's Cold]

Here's another interview:

Another character missed by Martin is Sansa’s young friend Jeyne Poole, who accompanies the Stark family to King’s Landing and later marries Ramsay Bolton. “She’s a minor character in the first book, then vanishes and then—boom—there she is in the fifth book in a major way,” Martin says. The Ramsay marriage storyline has now been given to Sansa, a move that’s caused some controversy among the show’s book-reading fans.

“And in the Tyrell family, Loras is not the eldest son in the books,” Martin points out. “There are two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. I didn’t just put them in for hoots and giggles, they have roles to play in the last two books, and they don’t exist in the show.

<...>

“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”

This is kinda sad but it probably would not be a problem if Martin had just released these books before the tv adaptation. Now D&D will just give the roles Willas and Garlan should have played to other characters.

[Tagganaro]

This is kinda sad but it probably would not be a problem if Martin had just released these books before the tv adaptation. Now D&D will just give the roles Willas and Garlan should have played to other characters.

yeah, I blame Martin a lot for this as well. I mean at the time he sold the rights to the show, the idea that the show would catch up to his books before the 6th one was released was preposterous. I think it gave the showrunners a lot more room to maneuver....and as we've seen this season that is NOT a good thing lol.

I do have to side with Martin though when he brings up something such as Stoneheart. It's one thing to cut out Jeyne Poole or Strong Belwas, but ENTIRELY another to cut out Stoneheart. The Stoneheart cut just seems...I don't know...maybe spiteful and excessive on the showrunners' parts. I simply cannot understand it in any other light to cut out such a huge part of the story and then troll book readers about it like they do.

[marsyao]

The part that is in bold, apparently, the author likes it. He said even though it didn't happen in the book, he doesn't mind. Considers it part of a great show

Do you mind site your source? Or is that possible you are in some kind of wired dream?

[xjlxking]

Listen, enough is enough. You are wasting my time. That link you provided doesn't say anything about GRRM's opinion about controversial scenes this season. He talks about general portrayal of rape and other crimes in his novels. It is totally disingenuous to think that that has anything to do with Sansa's rape in the show. He doesn't talk about that at all. He wrote the story exactly the way he wanted in the books, and in the books there is NOTHING as stupid as Sansa marrying Ramsay! Now go ahead and bring 8 million viewers and IMDB ratings. There is nothing in all those other shows as stupid as Sansa marrying Ramsay. Ask your father to find anything in Breaking Bad that is as stupid as Sansa marrying Ramsay and I'm sure he won't be able to because NOTHING in BB is on that level of stupidity.

And please don't embarrass yourself any more. You are unable to answer one direct question: is arrest of that man who was hiding inside walls logical or isn't? What is that man arrested for? Why was he hiding? How did he get inside walls? Answer any of this questions if you can. And if you can't then please tell me how can that scene make any sense. But of course that you can't because it doesn't make any sense. This has nothing to do with IMDB ratings but it has only to do with you and your opinion if you have one at all.

About links, watch Elio and Linda latest video in which they explain why are they quitting the show. They are GRRM's friends and collaborators. Go to GRRM's site and you will see that he doesn't have any news about the show. His only comments about the show were about the Sansa controversy and he only said that show is the show and books are the books. And he also told something about butterfly effects becoming dragon effects which is a sign. And then there is GRRM's UK publisher who openly bashed the show. About many book readers that are about to quit the show just read some sections on this forum and you'll see what Im talking about.

But what is most hypocritical is this: if only thing that matters is IMDB ratings and critics then why are you even arguing with me? If my opinion and your opinion are meaningless then don't waste my and your time. I can spend that time debating people who actually have opinion and want to discuss my opinion, and you can spend that time watching IMDB ratings. And we're both going to be happy.

Once more, I answered you questions directly and at this point as simple as I can. The very fact that you cannot comprehend a few sentence is not my fault. I've given you my opinion and an answer to the show. I've asked you give me links and you haven't. Yet you dare accuse me of not answering your questions. Can you explain what I did not answer?

I told you the book has stupid parts as well. Like why doesn't Stannis not have children and kill them off since they carry kings blood. Quite honestly, I find that stupid. The same way Tolkein wrote his story and never explain why the Great Eagles didn't fly to mount doom. And you admit that in your opinion that show is stupid, you give your reason, mostly because character don't act logical, yet you also praised BB for being good. A few post later you claim that it too has stupid stuff. So let me guess, both shows are stupid, right.

I don't know how to put it more clearer than this. Your argument consist of you jumping from one topic to another to try and prove that the show is stupid. I told you, I agreed with you to some regard, but I also said you every show has this to a degree; each subjected to personal opinions.

You keep bringing up IMDB rating as it is bad. Have you not taken a statistic course; you'd think when certain website represent about 20% of viewership that it would be used as I DON"T know...POPULATION Sample. I've said this twice already, but hopefully a third time will be the charm, despite your opinion and mine, the show is considered to be good. I've given you plenty of reasons why; i don't think I need to repeat it. If you want to associate your opinion as it represent the mass population and general audience, then go ahead, no one will stop that amount of ignorance. I for one understand, that despite the fact that I might not like a show, doesn't mean it's not a great show. It just means I don't like the show. Everyone else does!

I'm still waiting for the links.

[xjlxking]

Yeah, I had read those before. The first one talks about the books, and how and why there is sexual violence in them. Nothing new.

The second, well, there are different ways to interpret what he says. I'll say this, I would never expect Martin to badmouth the show. Ever. He's said it himself, he doesn't like when authors sell the rights to their novels, accept a truckload of cash, and then bitch about the adaptation.

But really, when he says, 'they are trying make the best television series they can'...

That's pretty much my point. He isn't going to do so. In fact, in that article he seems grateful. Whether one wants to argue if it's his true feelings is of no concern. The guy I'm "debating" with said that GRRM is betrayed, and a few other things. He associates his opinion to everyone else. The guy said that the show is not a good adaption, but right there, the author says the opposite

[StepStark]

Once more, I answered you questions directly and at this point as simple as I can. The very fact that you cannot comprehend a few sentence is not my fault. I've given you my opinion and an answer to the show. I've asked you give me links and you haven't. Yet you dare accuse me of not answering your questions. Can you explain what I did not answer?

I told you the book has stupid parts as well. Like why doesn't Stannis not have children and kill them off since they carry kings blood. Quite honestly, I find that stupid. The same way Tolkein wrote his story and never explain why the Great Eagles didn't fly to mount doom. And you admit that in your opinion that show is stupid, you give your reason, mostly because character don't act logical, yet you also praised BB for being good. A few post later you claim that it too has stupid stuff. So let me guess, both shows are stupid, right.

I don't know how to put it more clearer than this. Your argument consist of you jumping from one topic to another to try and prove that the show is stupid. I told you, I agreed with you to some regard, but I also said you every show has this to a degree; each subjected to personal opinions.

You keep bringing up IMDB rating as it is bad. Have you not taken a statistic course; you'd think when certain website represent about 20% of viewership that it would be used as I DON"T know...POPULATION Sample. I've said this twice already, but hopefully a third time will be the charm, despite your opinion and mine, the show is considered to be good. I've given you plenty of reasons why; i don't think I need to repeat it. If you want to associate your opinion as it represent the mass population and general audience, then go ahead, no one will stop that amount of ignorance. I for one understand, that despite the fact that I might not like a show, doesn't mean it's not a great show. It just means I don't like the show. Everyone else does!

I'm still waiting for the links.

No, it is you who are jumping. And you're avoiding question again. We can discuss books, but first just answer one direct question: why does that man hide inside walls?

[Dragon in the North]

No, it is you who are jumping. And you're avoiding question again. We can discuss books, but first just answer one direct question: why does that man hide inside walls?

Because Daario and Grey Worm have come to arrest him for crimes against the queen.

[StepStark]

Because Daario and Grey Worm have come to arrest him for crimes against the queen.

Really? And what are those crimes?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is kinda sad but it probably would not be a problem if Martin had just released these books before the tv adaptation. Now D&D will just give the roles Willas and Garlan should have played to other characters.

Not necessarily. A lot of books who are published completely are also butchered in their adaptation.

Besides, -allegedly- they have the information that will go in the books. They are deciding to change it for creative reasons :dunno:

[StepStark]

I agree with you but I think it's rather a case of Martin feeling betrayed rather than being betrayed (as far as we know). We don't know (yet) what kind of agreement they had first.

I also find funny how many bring the argument of "who cares? He was paid!". I suppose those people are lucky enough to have never seen your work being misused. It doesn't matter how much you are paid, it does hurt (to some at least).

Look for example, the case of bookJP vs movieJP. While it does have big differences, it keeps one main thing: the theme. While book fans and movie fans now have a different opinion of John Hammond (because the portrayals are very much the opposite of each other), I think they all agree on what the books and franchise are about, which is the main concern of the author: "would you do it just because you can or not?".

The themes in GoT are nothing like the themes in ASOIAF (and I'm being generous because GoT has no themes at all). I think mostly authors are ok. with changes in their books as long as the message remains. What's the message that remains in GoT from ASOIAF? "Anyone can die"?. I doubt that's the intention of GRRM and it's a valid reason for him to be mad.

GRRM is not the only one. Many authors have feel like this over the years, but I suppose some of them can't really talk about it for professionals reasons. Some others have been lucky enough to being able to talk about it and point out that the adaptations made of their books have been hideous. I mean, google "authors that hated movie adaptations" and we have a long list. I mean, they are the parents of the stories, why should we treat their feelings like they don't matter? :dunno:

It is true that we don't know what they agreed initially but on the other hand we do know that Martin refused many offers because they didn't want to do faithful adaptation. In fact Benioff himself was making fun of those other guys in first comiccon at which the show appeared, it was after first season if I remember. If Martin knew how is this "adaptation" going to turn out I think he would pass it just like any author that respects his work would.

[EatCrow]

The bottom line for me is that this is not the show I fell in love with. Its HBO i expect more I'm paying more. It's become cliche story lines dont make sense. People say D&D are doing the best they can, this show is a huge undertaking and it's based on the worst books of the series but Ive seen people on here come up with better plot twists than what I've seen on the show. Why didnt LF leave any vale knights to look after Sansa. We could have had Ramsy go psycho on them and have yon be the new wyman manderly. Then we wouldn't have to go to white harbor.