Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 3 (Book Spoilers)

[lostcause]

Right now, I'm about equally as irritated with the show as the author. I'm irritated about Jon Snow, about Stannis about Winds.

Have to agree with this.

I am pretty sure I'm done with the show, it's become a source of annoyance and eye rolling. Maybe I will see it different a year from now but I doubt it. At this point I'm not sure I can be bothered to get the last books either, since I'll be spoiled to the ending regardless of what I do - I might just grab them at the library some years down the line.

[dannyk65]

His reaction and behavior looking for Sansa is going to be frightening to behold.

Not when Batfinger swoops in to save the day

[Cashless Society]

Read an article yesterday, one of the D's say that Cersei isn't going to go after Dorne for Myrcella death, instead she will blame St Tyrion.

[R4W13Y]

Guys, let's remember to put in a request for a new thread at ~ 400 posts. This way we may get approval before this iteration gets locked.

Good call :)

So here's what show apologists think we are supposed to assume in order to make the story make sense:

• The Eastwatch ships crashed and that's why Jon and the Wildlings are on the wrong side of the Wall.

They meant "war horses" or "most horses" instead of "all horses"

The discrepancy in when Cersei and Lancel had sex is explained away by assuming she is trying to also get Lancel in trouble (???)

Cersei had sex with Lancel while married to Robert even though it's never said or shown before this past episode.

A baby that dies doesn't count when considering a prophecy

Sansa's necklace (and Ros'?) were stolen back and given to Myrcella, accounting for the "two" necklaces

Ghost is locked up during FTW

Jon told the NW about Hardhome "behind the scenes"

Any more??

[nyser1]

If Stannis is dead does Brienne now have Oathkeeper (forged from Ice) and Lightbringer (sword pulled out of the fire)?

[Dolorous Gabe]

I don't remember who posted it or where (maybe the HBO thread about Jon Snow), but I really liked the post about how D&D's decision to stick to important book plot points has actually been detrimental to their work. I think that's an interesting way to look at things. And it's definitely part of what angers me in these rant and rave threads. They make just enough changes that the context and background for the points they DO stick to fall completely flat.

Dany's scene in the fighting pit is a great example. By stripping away the external threats to Mereen and all her internal struggles with identity and prophecy, finding Drogon loses the moment of triumph and growth. Instead of being a step forward for character progression, she's just being saved by the dragon only to drop her ring so she can be saved again.

I absolutely and completely agree with this.

The plot points they are trying to stick to were carefully built up to by GRRM. By changing things in the build-up, the plot points should really be different.

It's like they're using a connect-the-dots system to draw the same picture that GRRM drew but skipping some dots, going to some dots further along the sequence, and going off at occasional tangents before connecting to the next dot in the sequence, thereby making a complete mess of the picture.

[Cas Stark]

Read an article yesterday, one of the D's say that Cersei isn't going to go after Dorne for Myrcella death, instead she will blame St Tyrion.

I am interested how they are going to deal with this whole Dorne mismash. Tryst is on the ship to KL, but Mycella is dead. Instead of Cersei having plotted to kill Tryst, I can't even remember her deranged reason for that, she' of course totes innocent and reasonable. The bad pussy posse gotta do something but what? They already killed Myrcella. The fuck.

[R4W13Y]

I don't remember who posted it or where (maybe the HBO thread about Jon Snow), but I really liked the post about how D&D's decision to stick to important book plot points has actually been detrimental to their work. I think that's an interesting way to look at things. And it's definitely part of what angers me in these rant and rave threads. They make just enough changes that the context and background for the points they DO stick to fall completely flat.

Dany's scene in the fighting pit is a great example. By stripping away the external threats to Mereen and all her internal struggles with identity and prophecy, finding Drogon loses the moment of triumph and growth. Instead of being a step forward for character progression, she's just being saved by the dragon only to drop her ring so she can be saved again.

:agree:

Not when Batfinger swoops in to save the day

Yup, this is exactly what will happen.

Read an article yesterday, one of the D's say that Cersei isn't going to go after Dorne for Myrcella death, instead she will blame St Tyrion.

:lol: what?? Cause he sent her down there?

[Astromech]

I don't remember who posted it or where (maybe the HBO thread about Jon Snow), but I really liked the post about how D&D's decision to stick to important book plot points has actually been detrimental to their work. I think that's an interesting way to look at things. And it's definitely part of what angers me in these rant and rave threads. They make just enough changes that the context and background for the points they DO stick to fall completely flat.

In theory I don't mind D&D having a bit of fluidity with some plot points on paper as long as the overall story remains the same. However, they have shown time and time again that they aren't very good when they stray from the source material. Hence, season 5. As much as in theory I don't mind fluidity and a bit of artistic license, I can not forgive writers for butchering characters. Who the hell are show Jaime, Cersei and Brienne? They are completely foreign to their book counterparts.

[R4W13Y]

I absolutely and completely agree with this.

The plot points they are trying to stick to were carefully built up to by GRRM. By changing things in the build-up, the plot points should really be different.

It's like they're using a connect-the-dots system to draw the same picture that GRRM drew but skipping some dots, going to some dots further along the sequence, and going off at occasional tangents before connecting to the next dot in the sequence, thereby making a complete mess of the picture.

Exactly. Linda pointed this out as well in her latest review. They don't realize or think through the consequences of their changes. But that's stupid, because it's their job to. They make changes willy nilly, small and big, without realizing the importance of those changes on future events.

In theory I don't mind D&D having a bit of fluidity with some plot points on paper as long as the overall story remains the same. However, they have shown time and time again that they aren't very good when they stray from the source material. Hence, season 5. As much as in theory I don't mind fluidity and a bit of artistic license, I can not forgive writers for butchering characters. Who the hell are show Jaime, Cersei and Brienne? They are completely foreign to their book counterparts.

I agree. I don't mind them changing things, theoretically (though at some point it does stop being an adaptation), but they need to have the balls to see those changes through to the end instead of still trying to stick with the major book events that they like that no longer make sense. And since they do this, that makes characters seem so fucking weird and OCC and confusing, because they are doing things that don't make sense to who they are or what they want.

[Follmann]

ASOIAF has always been strongly founded on the principle that every action has a consequence.

GoT has been keen on portraying that when it comes to the people that we are supposed to root for, because shock.

However, when it comes to showing the consequences of, for instance, the RW, they just scrape it all away.

There's a reason we have LSH, Blackfish's defiance, the Northern conspiracy. There's a sense that we may get payback after all.

In the show, Stannis was so far the only hope that the Boltons would suffer some retribution. But of course they had him burn his daughter and suffer the dire consequences immediately.

By removing all that, it seems like they are just trying to streamline the story in between shocking moments. It's a one-trick pony that somehow keeps working. It's just the "Youtube rection videos" show.

I'm glad to see that some outlets are done with it, at least.

[Astromech]

I think we all love the journey, whereas D&D are only interested in the destination.

[Ludo Kressh]

:agree:

Yup, this is exactly what will happen.

:lol: what?? Cause he sent her down there?

In Cersei logic(where she blames Tyrion for the death of their mother), I could see her doing this.

[R4W13Y]

In Cersei logic(where she blames Tyrion for the death of their mother), I could see her doing this.

My objection is to the part where they say she won't go after Dorne. They directly killed Myrcella. Without a doubt. With witnesses. She can blame Tyrion for sending her down there to begin with, but the fact that she won't care about Dorne's part in all of this is absolutely moronic.

[The Northern Scholar]

So, another huge problem I have with how they did FTW is that it negates the narrative need for the Red Wedding, at least in regards to Jon's story and pushes it back into the shock territory.

One of the reasons Jon makes the decision to take on the Boltons is because there is no one left too. He believe Stannis to be dead (and he might be) and Robb is gone. Even knowing Bran and Rickon are alive wouldn't change this, as they can lead an army against the Boltons.

By changing the motivation for FTW, the Red Wedding is irrelevant to Jon's decision. It just happens for the shock value in terms of plot, though it obviously has some (limited in the show) impact on characters in terms of their development.

And while it does impact Sansa and Arya's lines, because of the loss of their Brother and Mother they don't seem to be put in the same situation Jon is by it where he feels he needs to do something about the Boltons because of it, for the sake of the North and his family.

And it strips away Jon's desire to help his family and get back his sister. Something they've downplayed a lot.

I absolutely and completely agree with this.

The plot points they are trying to stick to were carefully built up to by GRRM. By changing things in the build-up, the plot points should really be different.

It's like they're using a connect-the-dots system to draw the same picture that GRRM drew but skipping some dots, going to some dots further along the sequence, and going off at occasional tangents before connecting to the next dot in the sequence, thereby making a complete mess of the picture.

I posted this for an earlier episode's Rant and Rave, but it's like that scene from Goodwill Hunting when they're talking about the painting of the guy in a boat. Damon says it looks like crap and Robin Williams says it's paint by numbers.

[William Campbell]

Good call :)

So here's what show apologists think we are supposed to assume in order to make the story make sense:

• The Eastwatch ships crashed and that's why Jon and the Wildlings are on the wrong side of the Wall.

They meant "war horses" or "most horses" instead of "all horses"

The discrepancy in when Cersei and Lancel had sex is explained away by assuming she is trying to also get Lancel in trouble (???)

Cersei had sex with Lancel while married to Robert even though it's never said or shown before this past episode.

A baby that dies doesn't count when considering a prophecy

Sansa's necklace (and Ros'?) were stolen back and given to Myrcella, accounting for the "two" necklaces

Ghost is locked up during FTW

Jon told the NW about Hardhome "behind the scenes"

Any more??

In the first season, Cersei was having sex with Lancel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_gh7KfKReU

[Cashless Society]

:lol: what?? Cause he sent her down there?

Yep, according to Benioff himself:

In her mind,

Myrcella was taken away from her by

Tyrion; she still blames him for Joffreys

death, and he is directly responsible for

Myrcella going to Dorne. So in her

worldview, both of her childrens deaths are

to be laid at his doorstep. This is one more

thing to motivate her homicidal hatred of

him.

[R4W13Y]

In the first season, Cersei was having sex with Lancel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_gh7KfKReU

Not while married to Robert, is my point. They only mentioned the "while married to Robert" point this episode.

ETA: I should say "while Robert was alive" I mean.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The analogy of the recipe works better for me.

D&D bought a cooking book and proceed to bake a cake.

Then, they not only ignored the instructions on how to bake it but also decided to add ingredients of their own and switch the order on how to include them.

Once they baked it, they covered with nice cool frosting and served. People protested about the taste and they said "but we used the ingredients from the book! And we also baked it at the end! Why you complain? We follow what we found in the book!".

[Cas Stark]

My objection is to the part where they say she won't go after Dorne. They directly killed Myrcella. Without a doubt. With witnesses. She can blame Tyrion for sending her down there to begin with, but the fact that she won't care about Dorne's part in all of this is absolutely moronic.

Yeah, she has already threatened to burn it to the ground when they were only sending snakes and necklaces. But, somehow, after they murdered her daughter, she will do nothing? But, again, it's saintly Carol Lannister after all, and she will see it's her dumb brother Larry's fault.

This is the thing. They change things..speed up this or that..but refuse to live with the decisions...they then go back to the original story. So, they killed Myrcella, presumably for shock value, but are not going to have anything major happen w/Dorne until it tracks back with the books...meaning, it all makes NO SENSE as I must have written 1000 times.