Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 3 (Book Spoilers)

[Cas Stark]

LOL I've been waiting for this thread to reopen to be able to answer you on the questions you posed in relation to Jon Snow, the scene in the show, and what it may mean for the books, and how some of us might feel about that.

I have to tell you.....I am on record, and will continue to be, as saying that I think GRRM's stories have made clear that these resurrections do not bring us back the original character. Much of his story in these books, as well as comments about other stories and characters being returned from the dead, speak to this idea and that is exactly why I AM NOT INTERESTED in having a reanimated Jon Snow save the day. I have no problem with a Jon who can be saved from death.....ie warging, a little help from Mel, from someone, BUT that is NOT the same as reanimation. The question is: regardless of what the show does or doesn't do with a dead body of Jon Snow's.....what are GRRM's plans?

I'm not even interested in some prophecy or AA shit, or some such nonsense, helping an UnJon over come the deficits we've seen in LSH and that we've seen and heard Beric explain. I think, with all that George has shown us in the previous books, that would be a cop out. Regardless of magic and all......the stories, to me, speak of humanity and if we have UnJon, how can he have a human story arc?

This was one of the things you wanted to talk about, right? Is the show blowing the lid off of GRRM's plans because, like me, they don't like that idea, or.....is the show full of shit and Jon is NOT dead and Kit IS coming back, or.....is Jon dead but the character and Kit are coming back, and for once......the show will chose to resurrect the dead while GRRM MIGHT be trying to save the living?

Anyway, I've wanted to discuss some of this, but I also wonder, if it needs it's own thread? It is very Jon specific, but tied in with show and book and......I still have lots to get off my chest on other story lines as well. LOL

It's all bad, ya know.

I'm a bit torn. The whole Shireen, George told us "this" makes me look at the D's as cowards, they had to hide behind GRRM for such a controversial move, whether they amped it up or not.

So, I wonder, would these guys really kill Jon Snow, either for good or kill him and then zombie him out if this isn't what GRRM is doing? They may have themselves gone fully off the rails in their arrogance, we can't say.

I have steadfastly, s t e a d f a s t l y, rejected the idea that Jon is dead and will be revived for all the reasons you list. And that instead, he will be in a coma, where he has wolf dreams, figures some things out about his power and then comes back...the stabbing is fairly open to interpretation that it not necessarily be fatal, unlike the show where he's stabbed a gazilion times.

Would they REALLY change something this major? I know we complain about the changes, but thinking like the Ds, when you look at the majors and the second set, about 75% of them are in exactly the same spot, all of the majors except Sansa are in exactly the same spot, okay Tyrion moved up a bit, and the majority of secondary changes are people who looked likely to die, dying earlier, with the exception of the RL, which is all kinds of all fucked up. Killing Jon if George doesn't kill him is huge. Huge.

[Le Cygne]

The "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy" line... How did that make it from an idea they had to production?

Did no one along the line, from other writers, producers, directors, actors, friends and acquaintances, anyone, say, you know what, that's not a good line. It's really dumb and sexist. It doesn't add anything to the story. People will cringe and wonder, what the hell is wrong with them?

No one told them anything like this? Or did someone actually say something, and they just steadfastly said, no, it's great.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy" line... How did that make it from an idea they had to production?

The line isn't bad itself. The problem is that, by that time, pretty much everybody was fed up with Dorne and the Sand Snakes.

[Astromech]

The line isn't bad itself. The problem is that, by that time, pretty much everybody was fed up with Dorne and the Sand Snakes.

LOL, I disagree. That line is terrible.

[Le Cygne]

The line isn't bad itself. The problem is that, by that time, pretty much everybody was fed up with Dorne and the Sand Snakes.

No, the line is terrible. It's been reviled in just about every review I've read/heard.

[Nihlus]

I have some catching up to do but wanted to ask everyone a question before...

Considering the *big ep 9 shock moment* , which would be in your opinion this season's wow moment, with no consideration to the episode number?

For the watch.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think this is kind of a good point.The way I see it, the show is hitting the important plot points (Dany flying from Meereen, Battle of Ice, Jon's stabbing, etc.) but in most cases they are completely disregarding the journey that concludes in that important plot point. So if we look at the Ides for example. In the books, this happens as a result of the simmering resentment from Bowen Marsh and co. over Jon's decisions with regards to the Wildlings, his politicising the Night's Watch, and their disregard of the White Walkers because they are this unseen threat (well, not total disregard.They do propose sealing the wall, but at the cost of the Wildlings...anyway...). Its built up over the course of the book and is the result of a number of factors, with the catalyst being the Pink Letter and Jon's reaction.

Whereas, the show has some vague, wishy washy "uh no not the Wildlings!" stuff, has the Night's Watch be fully aware of the horrors of the White Walkers (unless Jon did sit on that one and we arent just to assume it occured off screen) and has Thorne actually let the Wildlings and Jon Snow through the Wall, and then, with no real change in the position of the Watch, decide to stab Jon. The end result is the same (Jon stabbed by his brothers) but the journey is completely different, with the show's journey lacking detail, logic and nuance. The same is true for several other characters.

Elio and Linda also raised a very good point. The show can make changes, and while this may cut our favourite characters and we may not personally like the decision, it can be justified. But when D&D are making these changes, they are not taking the implications of the change into consideration.

Removing the Pink Letter was a huge mistake, but they wanted their burnt Shireen cake and eat it.

But even so, they could've made it work:

"Bastard, your false king is dead. His host was smashed by 20 good men in 7 seconds of offscreen battle. Tell his red whore. I want my bride back. I want my Reek. I want the false king's Hand. I want his red witch. Give them to me and I'll leave you and your black crows alone. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard heart."

Boom. There, a reasonable motivation for FTW, but the way they did it was more like WTF.

[HexMachina]

The show is Rachel's meat trifle...

Lol, I was thinking that too :p I'm pretty sure this is GRRM right now with regards to the show. "Mmmmmmm....this show is....*big swallow and grimace* gooood."

This article irritated me too (About Brienne)

Last year the nomadic ronin...

*facepalm*

[interviewer]: So next season Brienne might just pop up and kill Daenerys and be like, “Dragons are dangerous!”

From your mouth to D&D's script

[OldGimletEye]

Larry's arc was coming to understand and revel in his love for Carol!

Theon's arc was all about saving a Stark specifically, and then finding the strength to "keep on keepin' on!"

Brienne's arc was all about fulfilling her lifelong quest to murder Stannis!

Carol's arc was all about being a victim with relatively clean hands!

I can keep going.

Well, please do. Your criticisms are terrific.

The "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy" line... How did that make it from an idea they had to production?

I know jack squat about the TV show business, but evidently there is no quality control department.

[Cashless Society]

The "You want a good girl, but you need a bad pussy" line... How did that make it from an idea they had to production?

Did no one along the line, from other writers, producers, directors, actors, friends and acquaintances, anyone, say, you know what, that's not a good line. It's really dumb and sexist. It doesn't add anything to the story. People will cringe and wonder, what the hell is wrong with them?

No one told them anything like this? Or did someone actually say something, and they just steadfastly said, no, it's great.

Cough *Barristan* cough.

[Follmann]

For the watch.

Yeah, no one saw Olly coming.

[Astromech]

I have some catching up to do but wanted to ask everyone a question before...

Considering the *big ep 9 shock moment* , which would be in your opinion this season's wow moment, with no consideration to the episode number?

For me it was probably Hardhome and the first real view of the threat of the White Walkers and their army.

[HexMachina]

No one told them anything like this? Or did someone actually say something, and they just steadfastly said, no, it's great.

The person who told them probably made the mistake of prefacing the statement with "Well, look. I've read the books and..." "No." "But, I really think..." "No." "But the books-" "No!"

[SerDesmondHume]

You know my rage from the finale has died down a lot. Now that pretty much all of my book favorites are dead/not included on the show and can't be character assassinated anymore I can watch the show like a train wreck. This is coming from someone who still likes Lost btw.

If Cersei isn't going to do anything to Dorne it also means all the time they used to design and develop Dorne was a waste like the riverlands post season 3 (but at least the riverlands existed for 3 seasons). We gained Trystane who will probably die next season and we will likely never see Obara, Nym, Bad Pussy, Hotah or another 3 minutes of Siddig trying to salvage the storyline.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The person who told them probably made the mistake of prefacing the statement with "Well, look. I've read the books and..." "No." "But, I really think..." "No." "But the books-" "No!"

Or maybe the one suggesting the change was Stephen Dillane correcting their grammar.

[Follmann]

Or maybe the one suggesting the change was Stephen Dillane correcting their grammar.

I can picture Stephen Dillane standing there, going "bad... pussy... I'm done, just kill me this episode."

[Lady Fevre Dream]

It's all bad, ya know.

I'm a bit torn. The whole Shireen, George told us "this" makes me look at the D's as cowards, they had to hide behind GRRM for such a controversial move, whether they amped it up or not.

So, I wonder, would these guys really kill Jon Snow, either for good or kill him and then zombie him out if this isn't what GRRM is doing? They may have themselves gone fully off the rails in their arrogance, we can't say.

I have steadfastly, s t e a d f a s t l y, rejected the idea that Jon is dead and will be revived for all the reasons you list. And that instead, he will be in a coma, where he has wolf dreams, figures some things out about his power and then comes back...the stabbing is fairly open to interpretation that it not necessarily be fatal, unlike the show where he's stabbed a gazilion times.

Would they REALLY change something this major? I know we complain about the changes, but thinking like the Ds, when you look at the majors and the second set, about 75% of them are in exactly the same spot, all of the majors except Sansa are in exactly the same spot, okay Tyrion moved up a bit, and the majority of secondary changes are people who looked likely to die, dying earlier, with the exception of the RL, which is all kinds of all fucked up. Killing Jon if George doesn't kill him is huge. Huge.

LOL It's like an algebra equation, isn't it? One of the big differences is the manner of the stabbing. We have a few stabbings and then cold, in the book, with at least one of them not being that big a deal, and the question of how much the show would differ and why?

I do think the show would kill off Jon, IF, in their mind......they want to hurry up and bring in St Tyrion with Dany and the Dragons to wipe out the WW threat, and then...divvy up the kingdom. They may think....no big deal, if Jon doesn't sit the throne, which is also something I never thought he should do, unless the NW desolves, and then MAYBE? I've never thought the story is getting him out of the NW and out of his vows, but only whether the NW exists or not? Maybe it comes down to the Old Bear's question......when the dead walk, does it matter who sits the Iron Throne? paraphrasing.

I also can't see putting Jon Snow's 'soul' into another body. In a way, that actual body is Ice and Fire, soooooooooo, what's the point? I do think at this point the D's would kill him if he doesn't sit the throne or make a kid to carry on his name. I guess the question is: IF KIT is coming back, are the D's also lying about him actually dying from that season ending mess? Will he be saved, as I said I require for my story telling pleasure, ROFL, or.....will they resurrect him? I've seen spec of Jon's soul going into another body on the book side,why, isn't the body also Ice and Fire? DNA wise? LOLOLOL

It's one of those damn puzzles, and with the book not done, it's hard to know. Another thing to remember is: How many times have the both of us, you and I, said: NO, they can't be THAT stupid, ie.....Sansa? WF? etc., etc.? Never again will I ever fall on the side that something isn't too stupid for them, including the killing of Jon early, or the altering of his story. Never again.

I wish I could figure out what GRRM intends, but that might require the book forum. And.....some rereading.

PS To all who talked about a reread.....I am getting serious with mine. I was on AGOT already anyway, if we should want to do that together, even casually.

[WSmith84]

So, they're going to do Euron next year right? So they didn't actually reduce Feast and Dance into 1 season? They just delayed part of it until they had removed a bunch of characters?

I do think one serious problem with the show is its devotion to season long arcs (as badly as they are sometimes done) at the cost of narrative logic. This often means certain regions and characters are ignored or outright forgotten so that they can be brought back in when the plot requires them.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Lol, I was thinking that too :P I'm pretty sure this is GRRM right now with regards to the show. "Mmmmmmm....this show is....*big swallow and grimace* gooood."

snip

And then there's the Joey reaction.

"Well I like it....What's not to like? Actors? Goooood! Fight scenes? Gooooood! Boobs? Goooooooooood!"

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Kinda OT but... meat with chocolate tastes awesome.