Jump to content

Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 3 (Book Spoilers)

Veltigar

By Veltigar,
in E10: Mother's Mercy

Recommended Posts

Shuvuuia Council Member

Shuvuuia

Posted
Posted

Good call :)

So here's what show apologists think we are supposed to assume in order to make the story make sense:

  • The Eastwatch ships crashed and that's why Jon and the Wildlings are on the wrong side of the Wall.

They meant "war horses" or "most horses" instead of "all horses"

The discrepancy in when Cersei and Lancel had sex is explained away by assuming she is trying to also get Lancel in trouble (???)

Cersei had sex with Lancel while married to Robert even though it's never said or shown before this past episode.

A baby that dies doesn't count when considering a prophecy

Sansa's necklace (and Ros'?) were stolen back and given to Myrcella, accounting for the "two" necklaces

Ghost is locked up during FTW

Jon told the NW about Hardhome "behind the scenes"

Any more??

I actually understand the need to find this explanations and it could be fun as a sort of a game, I often do it myself. But even if we assume all of these, it still means a shitty story-telling. I can understand horses - if it was this one thing, but all these together indicate a problem. And if they don't care about these small things - well, they should be aware that large fandoms are always very nitpicky - see Star trek.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cashless Society Council Member

Cashless Society

Posted
Posted

The analogy of the recipe works better for me.

D&D bought a cooking book and proceed to bake a cake.

Then, they not only ignored the instructions on how to bake it but also decided to add ingredients of their own and switch the order on how to include them.

Once they baked it, they covered with nice cool frosting and served. People protested about the taste and they said "but we used the ingredients from the book! And we also baked it at the end! Why you complain? We follow what we found in the book!".

Another person described it as:

A show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys, but now it will cheat to help the bad guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
protar Council Member

protar

Posted
Posted

The analogy of the recipe works better for me.

D&D bought a cooking book and proceed to bake a cake.

Then, they not only ignored the instructions on how to bake it but also decided to add ingredients of their own and switch the order on how to include them.

Once they baked it, they covered with nice cool frosting and served. People protested about the taste and they said "but we used the ingredients from the book! And we also baked it at the end! Why you complain? We follow what we found in the book!".

Books: http://img04.deviantart.net/946c/i/2012/181/2/3/green_dragon_cake_by_the_evil_plankton-d55innu.jpg

Show: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/58/73/92/5873922255633cf2654e5bf99af5d44b.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldGimletEye Council Member

OldGimletEye

Posted
Posted

The analogy of the recipe works better for me.

D&D bought a cooking book and proceed to bake a cake.

Then, they not only ignored the instructions on how to bake it but also decided to add ingredients of their own and switch the order on how to include them.

Once they baked it, they covered with nice cool frosting and served. People protested about the taste and they said "but we used the ingredients from the book! And we also baked it at the end! Why you complain? We follow what we found in the book!".

And they also say, "The cake made sense to us because creatively that's what we wanted to happen."

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lady Fevre Dream Council Member

Lady Fevre Dream

Posted
Posted

Right now, I'm about equally as irritated with the show as the author. I'm irritated about Jon Snow, about Stannis about Winds.

LOL I've been waiting for this thread to reopen to be able to answer you on the questions you posed in relation to Jon Snow, the scene in the show, and what it may mean for the books, and how some of us might feel about that.

I have to tell you.....I am on record, and will continue to be, as saying that I think GRRM's stories have made clear that these resurrections do not bring us back the original character. Much of his story in these books, as well as comments about other stories and characters being returned from the dead, speak to this idea and that is exactly why I AM NOT INTERESTED in having a reanimated Jon Snow save the day. I have no problem with a Jon who can be saved from death.....ie warging, a little help from Mel, from someone, BUT that is NOT the same as reanimation. The question is: regardless of what the show does or doesn't do with a dead body of Jon Snow's.....what are GRRM's plans?

I'm not even interested in some prophecy or AA shit, or some such nonsense, helping an UnJon over come the deficits we've seen in LSH and that we've seen and heard Beric explain. I think, with all that George has shown us in the previous books, that would be a cop out. Regardless of magic and all......the stories, to me, speak of humanity and if we have UnJon, how can he have a human story arc?

This was one of the things you wanted to talk about, right? Is the show blowing the lid off of GRRM's plans because, like me, they don't like that idea, or.....is the show full of shit and Jon is NOT dead and Kit IS coming back, or.....is Jon dead but the character and Kit are coming back, and for once......the show will chose to resurrect the dead while GRRM MIGHT be trying to save the living? What's up with ALL OF IT and KIT and does it speak to the books, or just the show?

Anyway, I've wanted to discuss some of this, but I also wonder, if it needs it's own thread? It is very Jon specific, but tied in with show and book and......I still have lots to get off my chest on other story lines as well. LOL

ETA: I could see the Kit business going either way, but I really don't care. LOL I hope the show runners take a ton of shit if they are out and out lying, but that would be par for the course, they'll use lack of LSH to cover their asses on this lie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Chebyshov Council Member

Chebyshov

Posted
Posted

The show is Rachel's meat trifle...

:lmao:

But seriously, Julia Martell and I are working on another "unabashed book snobbery" based on the season end poll results, and uh. It's so much worse than that. It's as if they took every arc, thought "what is this about?" and then did the opposite thing. Like. For every plot.

Larry's arc was coming to understand and revel in his love for Carol!

Theon's arc was all about saving a Stark specifically, and then finding the strength to "keep on keepin' on!"

Brienne's arc was all about fulfilling her lifelong quest to murder Stannis!

Carol's arc was all about being a victim with relatively clean hands!

I can keep going.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shuvuuia Council Member

Shuvuuia

Posted
Posted

also I think that despite being praised for being deconstructive (mainly thanks to the books) and so innovative, the show is quite conservative in many ways, and not only because of tired tropes and stereotypes they use, but for example, they don't seem to pay much attention for female audience beyond Jon Snow is dreamy/shirtless Daario. They aren't learning from shows that are praised for their representation. It's like they are doing gritty American films in the nineties. But the audience is changing and wants more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
dannyk65 Council Member

dannyk65

Posted
Posted

LOL I've been waiting for this thread to reopen to be able to answer you on the questions you posed in relation to Jon Snow, the scene in the show, and what it may mean for the books, and how some of us might feel about that.

I have to tell you.....I am on record, and will continue to be, as saying that I think GRRM's stories have made clear that these resurrections do not bring us back the original character. Much of his story in these books, as well as comments about other stories and characters being returned from the dead, speak to this idea and that is exactly why I AM NOT INTERESTED in having a reanimated Jon Snow save the day. I have no problem with a Jon who can be saved from death.....ie warging, a little help from Mel, from someone, BUT that is NOT the same as reanimation. The question is: regardless of what the show does or doesn't do with a dead body of Jon Snow's.....what are GRRM's plans?

I'm not even interested in some prophecy or AA shit, or some such nonsense, helping an UnJon over come the deficits we've seen in LSH and that we've seen and heard Beric explain. I think, with all that George has shown us in the previous books, that would be a cop out. Regardless of magic and all......the stories, to me, speak of humanity and if we have UnJon, how can he have a human story arc?

This was one of the things you wanted to talk about, right? Is the show blowing the lid off of GRRM's plans because, like me, they don't like that idea, or.....is the show full of shit and Jon is NOT dead and Kit IS coming back, or.....is Jon dead but the character and Kit are coming back, and for once......the show will chose to resurrect the dead while GRRM MIGHT be trying to save the living?

Anyway, I've wanted to discuss some of this, but I also wonder, if it needs it's own thread? It is very Jon specific, but tied in with show and book and......I still have lots to get off my chest on other story lines as well. LOL

LOVE the procurer bit in your member title.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites
HexMachina Council Member

HexMachina

Posted
Posted

Actually D&D "overdid" everything..

That was their biggest mistake.

Also.

"Ooh. This Character must move from A to B because of george. Lets make a story in between."

Probably used a whiteboard

A->B

X+Y=Z

:lol:

I think this is kind of a good point.The way I see it, the show is hitting the important plot points (Dany flying from Meereen, Battle of Ice, Jon's stabbing, etc.) but in most cases they are completely disregarding the journey that concludes in that important plot point. So if we look at the Ides for example. In the books, this happens as a result of the simmering resentment from Bowen Marsh and co. over Jon's decisions with regards to the Wildlings, his politicising the Night's Watch, and their disregard of the White Walkers because they are this unseen threat (well, not total disregard.They do propose sealing the wall, but at the cost of the Wildlings...anyway...). Its built up over the course of the book and is the result of a number of factors, with the catalyst being the Pink Letter and Jon's reaction.

Whereas, the show has some vague, wishy washy "uh no not the Wildlings!" stuff, has the Night's Watch be fully aware of the horrors of the White Walkers (unless Jon did sit on that one and we arent just to assume it occured off screen) and has Thorne actually let the Wildlings and Jon Snow through the Wall, and then, with no real change in the position of the Watch, decide to stab Jon. The end result is the same (Jon stabbed by his brothers) but the journey is completely different, with the show's journey lacking detail, logic and nuance. The same is true for several other characters.

Elio and Linda also raised a very good point. The show can make changes, and while this may cut our favourite characters and we may not personally like the decision, it can be justified. But when D&D are making these changes, they are not taking the implications of the change into consideration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
protar Council Member

protar

Posted
Posted

LOL I've been waiting for this thread to reopen to be able to answer you on the questions you posed in relation to Jon Snow, the scene in the show, and what it may mean for the books, and how some of us might feel about that.

I have to tell you.....I am on record, and will continue to be, as saying that I think GRRM's stories have made clear that these resurrections do not bring us back the original character. Much of his story in these books, as well as comments about other stories and characters being returned from the dead, speak to this idea and that is exactly why I AM NOT INTERESTED in having a reanimated Jon Snow save the day. I have no problem with a Jon who can be saved from death.....ie warging, a little help from Mel, from someone, BUT that is NOT the same as reanimation. The question is: regardless of what the show does or doesn't do with a dead body of Jon Snow's.....what are GRRM's plans?

I'm not even interested in some prophecy or AA shit, or some such nonsense, helping an UnJon over come the deficits we've seen in LSH and that we've seen and heard Beric explain. I think, with all that George has shown us in the previous books, that would be a cop out. Regardless of magic and all......the stories, to me, speak of humanity and if we have UnJon, how can he have a human story arc?

This was one of the things you wanted to talk about, right? Is the show blowing the lid off of GRRM's plans because, like me, they don't like that idea, or.....is the show full of shit and Jon is NOT dead and Kit IS coming back, or.....is Jon dead but the character and Kit are coming back, and for once......the show will chose to resurrect the dead while GRRM MIGHT be trying to save the living? What's up with ALL OF IT and KIT and does it speak to the books, or just the show?

Anyway, I've wanted to discuss some of this, but I also wonder, if it needs it's own thread? It is very Jon specific, but tied in with show and book and......I still have lots to get off my chest on other story lines as well. LOL

ETA: I could see the Kit business going either way, but I really don't care. LOL I hope the show runners take a ton of shit if they are out and out lying, but that would be par for the course, they'll use lack of LSH to cover their asses on this lie.

Am I the only one actually looking forward to the prospect of Unjon? I think when people think of Unjon, they think it'll be like Cat's situation, whereas I think it'll be more like Beric's. Beric was a sane human being after dying six times. Jon will probably be different after his resurrection, but not unrecognisable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lady Fevre Dream Council Member

Lady Fevre Dream

Posted
Posted

Actually, I have some musings I tried posting a while back (I saved it all in case of forum issues) only to find the thread got locked while I was typing. It's all been said before but...

There's an interesting dichotomy in the books between the Lannisters and the Starks. House Lannister appears incredibly strong and powerful, but it is built on the brittle foundations of a dysfunctional family unit, which is a major part of what makes them so interesting. House Stark, meanwhile, are presented as a strong family unit (with one major issue causing problems probably based on an honourable lie), who become significantly weakened by the events of AGOT that lead to them being separated (the 'wolf pack' being stronger together of course).

The show has chosen to portray the Lannisters, particularly since season 4 when they started taking more liberties with the story, in a way that has destroyed everything truly interesting about them. They have hinted at dysfunction but then dismissed it as if it never really happened. The ruining of Jaime's arc and character development is particularly unforgivable. The Maggy The Frog prophecy set up the reasons for Cersei losing her mind (omitting the valonqar too), which should have started as soon as Joff died and made her more aware that it might have substance.

At this point, House Stark is still in disarray but in the books we are supposed to see signs that things could brighten significantly in the near future. Book-Sansa is shown to have learned from the lessons that life has thrown at her, Stark loyalists are showing their hands and making their moves in the knowledge that Bran and Rickon are still alive, and vengeance on the Freys is being wreaked from a few different directions. The show has had very little to none of these indicators of hope for those who want the Starks to make their comeback.

It's been the Lannister show for the past few seasons, actually. And, yes.....they've even destroyed all the interesting things about the Lannisters along the way, cause it's really St. Tyrion, I think, that matters to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
kissdbyfire Council Member

kissdbyfire

Posted
Posted

I have some catching up to do but wanted to ask everyone a question before...



Considering the *big ep 9 shock moment* , which would be in your opinion this season's wow moment, with no consideration to the episode number?


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...