Rant and Rave Without Repercussion: Season 5 Continued (Book Spoilers)

[Shuvuuia]

I'm sure someone has talked about this before, but I was thinking about how romantic love is depicted on the show and a few things struck me. Namely that there seems to be a definite lack of it for the main females of the series, but not as much for the males.

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but women can't seem to catch a break in Westeros.

I think it's almost similar in the books (and I would say Arya is too young for romantic love).But in the books we have women's PoVs and they happen to be the center of attention and there are much more female charactters, while the show prioritizes male charaters so it's more obvious there. Plus, they diminish Asha, who has a casual lover and Catelyn who was a person on her own right, not Ned's accessary.

[LongRider]

I'm going to do the "Boiled Leather" re-read of the last two books simultaneously ... that should keep me busy for a while.

 

 

Me too.  Gonna wait until the holidays to knock this out before the (hopeful) WoW release

 

I reread the last two that way as well and quite enjoyed it.  I printed out the chapter list, then marked each chapter with a little postie so I would know where to go.  Still have the books marked that way and with the chapter list, comes in handy when looking for something in those books now.  Enjoy!     :read:

[Le Cygne]

Tyrion-Shea betrays him, but he gets to be in love and in a relationship for several seasons.
 
vs
 
Sansa-she believes in Florian the foolish style love and is beaten, abused, traded and raped for 5 seasons. The only guy who seems to be in love with her had a twisted relationship with her mother and her aunt and actually gives her to her rapist as a part of his plan.

I agree the show fucked up romance at every turn, and nearly entirely focuses on male desire, including the desire of psychopaths like Ramsay and Littlefinger.

Sansa suffered a lot from them using her as a prop for Tyrion and then LF, she's basically there to support their stories and make them look awesome.

I don't see what LF feels for her as remotely love, Benioff didn't even go there, he called it affection, which is also a stretch, LF never actually sees her as a person. And yet they have focused on his desires.

Show Sansa's desires, apart from a brief and now dead crush on Loras, were eliminated, which is particularly troubling, since her sexual awakening, which centers on Sandor, is a big part of her book story.

She tells LF, I know what you want, but what about what she wants? The show leaves that out, like it doesn't matter at all. Because she doesn't matter at all. But what she wants mattered in the books.

In the books, these two things, what she wants and what LF wants, are at odds. She is resisting him in her thoughts, and asserting her own desires, case in point:

She sees LF naked. She dreams of the Hound naked in bed with her.

LF kisses her. She pretends to kiss the Hound.

LF tells her older men make good husbands. She places the Hound in the marriage bed, because of how he kissed her.

The only man who loves her, show, too, is Sandor. I actually think they were sort of good at showing this, thanks to Rory McCann's acting, there's a scene GRRM wrote that he calls beautiful, and if you watch his face from start to finish, it is.

There were a bunch of hints again in season 4, I could list them all, like when Arya asked why didn't you take something from Joffrey, that was about her, they directed that and had just panned from Sansa's face to his in a transition.

I knew when they had him call her pretty while dying and add the line she was his one happy memory, they would go there. Check my profile for the Beauty and the Beast hints in Blackwater. And more.

For her, they did show a classic fade out for her dream, and Arya says the Hound in a parallel shot, as they both are closing their eyes to sleep. They wanted her raped, though, and forced that to happen, so this took a backseat.

And they could just drop all of this, sure. But I rather doubt it.

(fixed typos)

[LongRider]

 

Well, not only that: HE TELLS THE GUARDS AT THE BLOODY GATE THAT HE HAS ARYA STARK WITH HIM - and they apparently just let the both of them walk off unhindered!

 

I can't believe the insanity of this scene doesn't get brought up more often (especially since the showrunners could've kept essensially an identical scene (only without the plotholes) just by having Arya/Sandor bump into a random traveller on the road who tells them that the Bloody Gate is closed while the death of Lady Lysa is being investigated).

 

 

The Hound vs. Brienne... :ack:

 

As fucking if... They didn't even bother to call out that he was weakened by the bite. In every interview they say he had to hold back not to hurt her because he's so much stronger. But on the show, she's invincible. Well, at least that way she can fight the Mountain instead of him. I'm sure she could beat the crap out of him. With one hand tied behind her back. She could take out three Mountains.

 

(Not bothered by this at all, am I? :lol:)

 

I hated the Hounds and Arya's 'buddy trip' in S4.  They turned the Hound into a stupid thug, something book!Hound is not.  :angry2:  Arya barely even grieved for her family at all either. 

 

McCann played a good scene when he told Arya about how the Hound received his burns.  It was well done I thought, even though I still wished he had told that story to Sansa first.  (oh no, LF got that privilege)

 

The Bri/Hound fight, OK, I'll admit I liked it as a spectacle, but as for a storyline?  No, just no.  So as much as I want to see McCann return, I'm apprehensive too; just how badly can they bork up his story this time 'round?    :dunce:

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I agree the show fucked up romance at every turn, and nearly entirely focus on male desire, including the desire of psychopaths like Ramsay and Littlefinger.

Sansa suffered a lot from them using her as a prop for Tyrion and then LF, she's basically there to support their stories and make them look awesome.

I don't see what LF feels for her as remotely love, Bemioff didn't even go there, he called it affection, which is also a stretch, LF never actually sees her as a person. And yet they have focused on his desires.

Show Sansa's desires, apart from a brief and now dead crush on Loras, were eliminated, which is particularly troubling, since her sexual awakening, which centers on Sandor, is a big part of her book story.

She tells LF, I know what you want, but what about what she wants? The show leaves that out, like it doesn't matter at all. Because she doesn't matter at all. But what she wants mattered in the books.

In the books, these two things, what she wants and what LF wants, are at odds. She is resisting him in her thoughts, and asserting her own desires, case in point:

She sees LF naked. She dreams of the Hound naked in bed with her.

LF kisses her. She pretends to kiss the Hound.

LF tells her older men make good husbands. She places the Hound in the marriage bed, because of how he kissed her.

The only man who loves her, show, too, is Sandor. I actually think they were sort of good at showing this, thanks to Rory McCann's acting, there's a scene GRRM wrote that he calls beautiful, and if you watch his face from start to finish, it is.

There were a bunch of hints again in season 4, I could list them all, like when Arya asked why didn't you take something from Joffrey, that was about her, they directed that an had just panned from Sansa's face to his in a transition.

I knew when they had him call her pretty while dying and add the line she was his one happy memory, they would go there. Check my profile for the Beauty and the Beast hints in Blackwater. And more.

For her, they did show a classic fade out for her dream, and Arya says the Hound in a parallel shot, as they both are closing their eyes to sleep. They wanted her raped, though, and forced that to happen, so this took a backseat.

And they could just drop all of this, sure. But I rather doubt it.

 You're right, I saw the Hound feelings toward Sansa and all those little hints. But they haven't exactly been known for their follow through in that department. I'd be happy if they changed their modus operandi and made that reunion a reality. Also Brienne and Jaime (just putting that out into the universe)

[Le Cygne]

I hated the Hounds and Arya's 'buddy trip' in S4.  They turned the Hound into a stupid thug, something book!Hound is not.  :angry2:  Arya barely even grieved for her family at all either. 
 
McCann played a good scene when he told Arya about how the Hound received his burns.  It was well done I thought, even though I still wished he had told that story to Sansa first.  ([font=comic sans ms']oh no, LF got that privilege[/font])
 
The Bri/Hound fight, OK, I'll admit I liked it as a spectacle, but as for a storyline?  No, just no.  So as much as I want to see McCann return, I'm apprehensive too; just how badly can they bork up his story this time 'round?    :dunce:

They will muck everything up, that's a given. I have no expectations of anything other than muckery (trying not to cuss).

They said they wanted to bring the Hound on "gently" but why, so he can kill gently? Or for scenes with Sansa. Gonna go with the latter.

And then after he died they said "I would hope you can't help but love the Hound" but why, for scenes with UnGregor? Not gonna go with that.

But who the hell knows...

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

 

 

I hated the Hounds and Arya's 'buddy trip' in S4.  They turned the Hound into a stupid thug, something book!Hound is not.  :angry2:  Arya barely even grieved for her family at all either. 

 

McCann played a good scene when he told Arya about how the Hound received his burns.  It was well done I thought, even though I still wished he had told that story to Sansa first.  (oh no, LF got that privilege)

 

The Bri/Hound fight, OK, I'll admit I liked it as a spectacle, but as for a storyline?  No, just no.  So as much as I want to see McCann return, I'm apprehensive too; just how badly can they bork up his story this time 'round?    :dunce:

There was one good line that still brings a smile to my face, his perplexed look and then "Whah the Fucks a Lommy?" . :lmao:

[Le Cygne]

You're right, I saw the Hound feelings toward Sansa and all those little hints. But they haven't exactly been known for their follow through in that department. I'd be happy if they changed their modus operandi and made that reunion a reality. Also Brienne and Jaime (just putting that out into the universe)

Another big clue in the books is proximity, for Sansa/Sandor and for Jaime/Brienne. The show mucked that up, of course, but they all have jetpacks on the show, so whatever...

Totally agree, these are two favorite stories in the books, and who knows what will happen there, too (although a kiss and banging do seem in order) but on the show the stories are barely set up. One good clue was the Tarth gaze. But the audience could have been having so much fun with two cool Beauty and the Beast stories, and instead they gave us psycho desires (LF, Ramsay), rape (Sansa), revenge (Brienne), and grovelling (Jaime).

[Toth]

So, why is it Telltale Games Games of Thrones Remembers the North better than season 5 did?  All the 'North Remembers' feels from a vidya game with a fraction of the budget and significantly shorter turn around time.

 

Your post made me remember the old Cyanide RPG that was developed before the series even started. I find it quite telling that the two book characters that had a bit more screentime (Cersei and Varys) were just... Cersei and Varys and not Carol and Varys Marx.

 

For one part the game doesn't whitewash Cersei, she is actively ordering the killing of Robert's bastards and is crazily easy to influence through flattery both when you talk to her as Ser Alliser and how Ser Valarr was able to get into her grace.

And of course Varys' only part is as a secret Targaryen-supporter who doesn't care for the actual Targaryen-supporters who are featured in the game, but only seizes the opportunity to save a Targaryen bastard as a back-up plan for Aegon (the game was published before A Dance with Dragons, mind you).

 

Gods, this game was awesome. Sure, the graphics were dated and the battle system a bit repetitive, but the story was absolutely amazing. It was not only faithful to the book-universe, but its original story had twists and turns like ASoS and they all made complete sense! The antagonists had clear-cut aims and all their cruelty was refreshingly pragmatic. But of course it was panned by the critics... it was so unfair...

 

Edit: Oh, and there was Mormont's Raven. "Corn! Corn!"

[Le Cygne]

Also wondering about Daario and Jorah, will there be a conflict over Dany? Who gets to rescue the damsel in distress? A fight to the death? Cut to Dany, facing rapists alone. Then St. Tyrion shows them both up, coming to her rescue riding a dragon (the dragons love him, too, naturally). This is after he achieves peace and prosperity in Meereen, of course.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Just came from the will you watch season 6 if twow isnt out and somebody's arguing ramsay didn't rape sansa. What the fuck. I need the sanity if this thread.

[TepidHands]

 

Edit: Oh, and there was Mormont's Raven. "Corn! Corn!"

That makes me just want to cry or laugh ... The show has let us down so much on things that would have been easy/fun to do, and combined various storylines, and one of those was that damn raven of Mormont's. I am convinced is Bloodraven keeping an eye on the Night's Watch, and if the Raven had been around Jon, it might have hinted that Bran was warging it as well. That fell into the memory hole along with Wiernet  and the Starks' general warging abilities. We have zero magic now except dragons, and so far they've been more Trogdor the Burninator than cool. 

[RightFootLeftFoot]

Just wanted to stop in to say that i've always been a fan of the show, and at times very apologetic and supportive.  But jeez, this season was dreadful in so many different ways.  I really hope George can pump out Winds before season 6 destroys this story even further.  Unfortunately, what was once one of my favorite shows has become a guilty pleasure, and I won't be able to not watch because I HAVE to know what happens..even if its an overly sexualized, trashy, and plot-hole-ridden version of what happens.

 

Jaime/Dorne, Fansa, Lack of consistency w/ Jon and Nights Watch storyline, and the brutally awkward Tyrion/Jorah/Grey Worm/Daario interaction are probably the worst offenders.  Shit...almost forgot Stannis's sinking ship and Ramsey's 20 good men.  I guess what I am saying is there were maybe a few decent scenes this season...

[Shuvuuia]

That makes me just want to cry or laugh ... The show has let us down so much on things that would have been easy/fun to do, and combined various storylines, and one of those was that damn raven of Mormont's. I am convinced is Bloodraven keeping an eye on the Night's Watch, and if the Raven had been around Jon, it might have hinted that Bran was warging it as well. That fell into the memory hole along with Wiernet  and the Starks' general warging abilities. We have zero magic now except dragons, and so far they've been more Trogdor the Burninator than cool. 

Was warging even mentioned this season? Arya skinchanging into a cat was so cool in the books.

Does the show hates all cats? No Ser Pounce this season :crying: 

No chubby lil Tommen playing with his kittens  :crying:

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

Just wanted to stop in to say that i've always been a fan of the show, and at times very apologetic and supportive.  But jeez, this season was dreadful in so many different ways.  I really hope George can pump out Winds before season 6 destroys this story even further.  Unfortunately, what was once one of my favorite shows has become a guilty pleasure, and I won't be able to not watch because I HAVE to know what happens..even if its an overly sexualized, trashy, and plot-hole-ridden version of what happens.

 

Jaime/Dorne, Fansa, Lack of consistency w/ Jon and Nights Watch storyline, and the brutally awkward Tyrion/Jorah/Grey Worm/Daario interaction are probably the worst offenders.  Shit...almost forgot Stannis's sinking ship and Ramsey's 20 good men.  I guess what I am saying is there were maybe a few decent scenes this season...

Don't forget about me!

 

But yes, I'd say that there were a few entertaining scenes this season but I can't think of any that really added to the plot, characters etc.

[TepidHands]

Don't forget about me!

 

But yes, I'd say that there were a few entertaining scenes this season but I can't think of any that really added to the plot, characters etc.

Arya keeping Needle (though they farked that up in the "Behind the Episode" commentary); Stannis and Shireen (a showrunner fabrication, but one that worked on a level -- until they SHOCKED us by having him fire 'er up!), I did like Drogon "smiling" at Dany on the top of the pyramid; Emilia does it best when she's not talking! ... Porne was just Godsawful, so was Winterhell, and Kingslanding was, well, CONFUSING and DULL at the same time. Go figure.. 

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

Arya keeping Needle (though they farked that up in the "Behind the Episode" commentary); Stannis and Shireen (a showrunner fabrication, but one that worked on a level -- until they SHOCKED us by having him fire 'er up!), I did like Drogon "smiling" at Dany on the top of the pyramid; Emilia does it best when she's not talking! ... Porne was just Godsawful, so was Winterhell, and Kingslanding was, well, CONFUSING and DULL at the same time. Go figure.. 

Arya and Needle was a good scene, actually. The Stannis and Shireen scene was great when I watched it but after what happened I just can't like it, knowing why they added it in there. 

[TepidHands]

Arya and Needle was a good scene, actually. 

It would have been if D&D hadn't been yapping in the commentary about how Arya was all about REVENGE and that's what Needle MEANT. No. Needle was Jon's smile, dammit. 

 

:bawl:

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

 

Your post made me remember the old Cyanide RPG that was developed before the series even started. I find it quite telling that the two book characters that had a bit more screentime (Cersei and Varys) were just... Cersei and Varys and not Carol and Varys Marx.

 

For one part the game doesn't whitewash Cersei, she is actively ordering the killing of Robert's bastards and is crazily easy to influence through flattery both when you talk to her as Ser Alliser and how Ser Valarr was able to get into her grace.

And of course Varys' only part is as a secret Targaryen-supporter who doesn't care for the actual Targaryen-supporters who are featured in the game, but only seizes the opportunity to save a Targaryen bastard as a back-up plan for Aegon (the game was published before A Dance with Dragons, mind you).

 

Gods, this game was awesome. Sure, the graphics were dated and the battle system a bit repetitive, but the story was absolutely amazing. It was not only faithful to the book-universe, but its original story had twists and turns like ASoS and they all made complete sense! The antagonists had clear-cut aims and all their cruelty was refreshingly pragmatic. But of course it was panned by the critics... it was so unfair...

 

Edit: Oh, and there was Mormont's Raven. "Corn! Corn!"

 

I've heard good things about that game in terms of its faithfulness to the source material.  I could rant about video game 'critics', but that isn't the place for this, but suffice to say I find critics from media sources not exclusively devoted to video game to be the only ones worth reading. :ohwell:  I suppose in some ways it might be easier to be faithful when you using tertiary and OCs, but you would also thing the desire to WoW people would be greater.  I mean, does the video game audience have more patience and attention to detail than the average TV viewer?  IDK, maybe.  Telltale does such a good job though, the Forresters are derivative without being carbon copies, and they are running multiple plot lines but keeping everything tied together.  It also amuses me how the Telltale Cersei and Tyrion don't really deviate from the GoT versions, despite the fact the GoT versions deviate a bit from the ASoIAF versions.  Marg does come across as an actual player of the game though, so I suppose that is a deviation. :cool4:

 

To actually defend d&d the game is mostly about the north were as the show for whatever reason is about the lannisters and back to insulting them.

The next part of the games out today I think

 

Screentime is split between Essos, King's Landing, Ironrath (the North) and the Wall fairly evenly, and while the overreaching plot is about a Northern family they still do a good job of balancing plot-lines, much better than the Lannister-Bolton fanfiction that is GoT atm.  Also does a much better job of making things grim for the Northern protags without making it hopeless.

[LongRider]

Another big clue in the books is proximity, for Sansa/Sandor and for Jaime/Brienne. The show mucked that up, of course, but they all have jetpacks on the show, so whatever...

Totally agree, these are two favorite stories in the books, and who knows what will happen there, too (although a kiss and banging do seem in order) but on the show the stories are barely set up. One good clue was the Tarth gaze. But the audience could have been having so much fun with two cool Beauty and the Beast stories, and instead they gave us psycho desires (LF, Ramsay), rape (Sansa), revenge (Brienne), and grovelling (Jaime).

 

Really, the B&B stories have much more going for them them than psycho marriages and 'hilarious' (not) buddy trips.

 

There was one good line that still brings a smile to my face, his perplexed look and then "Whah the Fucks a Lommy?" . :lmao:

 

Well, it was a much better line than 'bad pussy' that is for sure!