Who is the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands/Westerlands right now?

[HexMachina]

But other than Petyr who was named Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, we just assume the others you named are called lords paramount, yes?

I think the term was used in The World of Ice and Fire at some point, although until then it had only been used in terms of Littlefinger and the Riverlands. I don't recall what section of the WOIAF it appeared in, although I think maybe it was the Reach

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I think the term was used in The World of Ice and Fire at some point, although until then it had only been used in terms of Littlefinger and the Riverlands. I don't recall what section of the WOIAF it appeared in, although I think maybe it was the Reach

 
It seems universal. There's "Lord Paramount of the Mander" (later, apparently, renamed to "LP of the Reach"), "Lord Paramount of the Stormlands", and the ironborn allowed to pick their own LP to replace Harren Hoare.

[Red Tiger]

The lord paramount title was never mentioned to be a say Stark, Lannister, Baratheon etc. title until the World of Ice and Fire. You won't find it anywhere in the books, besides Littlefinger's new title as ruler of the Riverlands.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The lord paramount title was never mentioned to be a say Stark, Lannister, Baratheon etc. title until the World of Ice and Fire. You won't find it anywhere in the books, besides Littlefinger's new title as ruler of the Riverlands.

If it's in the World of Ice and Fire it's good enough for me. It makes sense anyway.

[WTF's a Lommy]

Rendly was lord of the Stormlands, since he had no children, his brothers are dead or disinherited, and his "nephews" are dead or currently king, his lands and title would pass to his "niece" Myrcella, I would assume.

[Daena the Defiant]

The lord paramount title was never mentioned to be a say Stark, Lannister, Baratheon etc. title until the World of Ice and Fire. You won't find it anywhere in the books, besides Littlefinger's new title as ruler of the Riverlands.

 

 

Exactly. It's a status, not an office, and it sorta goes without saying that the Lord of Winterfell is the Lord Paramount of the North, since everyone knows that all lines of fealty converge into him anyway. That's what makes him Lord Paramount.

 

The thing about Littlefinger is that it is a new development. That is, the occupant of the Lordship of Riverrun (Emmon Frey, gah!) no longer is the recipient of the homage, menie, scuttage et al of the Rivermen, it now has been reassigned to Lord Baelish of Harrenhal. It only became a notable issue when it became a plotpoint.

 

I do wonder, however, if Lord Roose has assumed the pinnacle of the Northron feudal pyramid specifically - did he collect new oaths of vassalage from the Stark former barons, or were they waiting for the birth of the offspring from the new Bolton/Stark marriage so as to be less politically galling. 

 

I can envision it would be something like this:

 

In the newly refurbished high hall of Winterfell, have the Warden of the North, Roose Bolton, standing at the shoulder of the Lord Protector of Winterfell, Ramsay Bolton, along with the rightful lady of Winterfell, Lady "Arya" debuting their new baby in front of the assembled Northern aristocracy. The question is, who would receive the oaths - Roose or Ramsay, or would either do so on behalf of the new baby? 

[I will break before i bend]

The Kingsguard seem to be barred from holding lands, rather than titles and military/governance positions. For example, Ser Criston Cole was named Hand of the King during the Dance of the Dragons, despite being a Kingsguard. The Warden of the East wouldn't hold any lands themselves because they were granted such a title, they would instead be in charge of the armies of that area.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Daena the Defiant]

As I understand, the Lord Paramount is just a lord of the main region. Ned was a Lord Paramount of the North, Tywin was a Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, Cersei now is a Lady Paramount of the Westerlands, Robert Arryn is a Lord Paramount of the Vale etc.

 

 

 

I am not sure that Cersei being a woman has to do with anything. She had appointed a castellan of CR simply because she was not there. If she was there, she would be the one ruling and be responsible for military governance of the Westerlands if she wanted. Like Jeyne Lannister did during the Dance of Dragons.

 

And she also could have appointed herself as the Wardeness of the West if she wanted. 

 

 

Wardeness is a made up show-construct. I have nothing concrete to point to, but the wardens are a military position it seems, and we have seen time and time again that the noblewomen rarely take command of forces themselves. 

 

Unless you can direct me to something directly stated in the Worldbook, I remain skeptical that Lady Jeyne Arryn was -herself- the supreme military commander of the East. She was the Lady of the Vale, and thus the Warden was probably a relative or senior Valeman sworn to her, but I doubt she was directing strategy as her own general. 

 

In any event, absent lords appoint castellans all the time - Renly did, for example, but it seems that a regnant lady is expected to appoint to a knight or male relative to see to the military affairs of the fief. Westeros is not very progressive. Every once in a while, GRRM gives the modern audience a badass furiousa to throw us a bone, like Black Aly Blackwood (commanding archers) or Mad Danelle Lothston, (leading her house levees in snug black armor) or Maege Mormont, the She-Bear, but its quite obvious that the ladies of Westeros do not directly participate in war and "women warriors" are outliers.

 

 

I do wonder though about all those various lesser warden positions in Dorne, Since Dorne has more female house high seats, if the Warden of the Prince's Pass, traditionally held by the Fowlers of Skyreach, is a woman, such as, (I dunno) Lady Janille of Skyreach, as the Fowler, is she the Warden as well, or does she appoint her younger brother or son, or something.

 

That's a question for GRRM.

[Daena the Defiant]

Well, I've just assumed it worked like that. But as I see Wiki disagrees with me. 

 

It's a wiki! I can change it right now, if I wanted. It's the fandom's distillation of sources as available. The Targaryen succession practices succession was written by me years ago based upon scanty information - since clarified and contradicted-  and it still bedevils conversation a decade later. 

[thi4f]

Good question, OP.

I guess that 'Lordship Paramount' of the Stormlands is indeterminate as of ADwD. Renly is dead and Stannis is the biggest enemy of the crown, most nobles in the Realm surrendered to Joffrey after Blackwater fiasco. There is no leader and seat of House Baratheon (could be viewed as Stormlands capital) is still in hands of the enemy. So there is none Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, because Stannis Baratheon domain is split.

I have no idea when it comes to Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, it's also vacant, but reasons are different.

[Daena the Defiant]

I have no idea when it comes to Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, it's also vacant, but reasons are different.

 

 

 

It's not vacant. It's currently filled, by virtue of her ascendancy as Lady of the Rock, by Cersei.

 

Did you even read the thread? 

[Dofs]

Wardeness is a made up show-construct. I have nothing concrete to point to, but the wardens are a military position it seems, and we have seen time and time again that the noblewomen rarely take command of forces themselves. 

Wardeness is a logical title that can potentially exist. A Warden of something is a title appointed by the king and he can appoint anyone he wants. If he believes that one woman is worthy of this title or he just wants to give this title to her for some other reason, he can perfectly do it. That's not that likely, true, because men are more likely to know more about war but it's not impossible. During ASOIAF Tywin gave the title of the Warden of the East to a sickly child just because he was a Lord of the Vale so if a woman is a Lady of the Rock/Vale/North etc, I can see them being wardenesses purely because they rule their respective regions.

 

 

Unless you can direct me to something directly stated in the Worldbook, I remain skeptical that Lady Jeyne Arryn was -herself- the supreme military commander of the East. She was the Lady of the Vale, and thus the Warden was probably a relative or senior Valeman sworn to her, but I doubt she was directing strategy as her own general. 

 

I was speaking about Jeyne Lannister, the Lady of Casterly Rock who organized an attack to Iron Islands during the Dance of Dragons. 

 

 

 

In any event, absent lords appoint castellans all the time - Renly did, for example, but it seems that a regnant lady is expected to appoint to a knight or male relative to see to the military affairs of the fief. Westeros is not very progressive. Every once in a while, GRRM gives the modern audience a badass furiousa to throw us a bone, like Black Aly Blackwood (commanding archers) or Mad Danelle Lothston, (leading her house levees in snug black armor) or Maege Mormont, the She-Bear, but its quite obvious that the ladies of Westeros do not directly participate in war and "women warriors" are outliers.

If a woman is a ruler, she can do whatever she wants. Westeros is not progressive because son's inherit ahead of daughters but if a daughter does inherit and becomes a ruler or if a woman rules because her husband is dead, then nobody can force her to do anything - she effectively becomes the liege and can do whatever she wants. In most cases she would appoint a male relative to see to the military affairs because the chances are, she knows nothing about military affairs herself but if she thinks she'll manage it or/and wants to do it, nothing will stop her. 

 

 

I do wonder though about all those various lesser warden positions in Dorne, Since Dorne has more female house high seats, if the Warden of the Prince's Pass, traditionally held by the Fowlers of Skyreach, is a woman, such as, (I dunno) Lady Janille of Skyreach, as the Fowler, is she the Warden as well, or does she appoint her younger brother or son, or something.

I believe that's the same as everywhere - it's up to a woman herself if she appoints someone or not.

 

 

 

It's a wiki! I can change it right now, if I wanted. It's the fandom's distillation of sources as available. The Targaryen succession practices succession was written by me years ago based upon scanty information - since clarified and contradicted-  and it still bedevils conversation a decade later. 

I understand that. But I still trust it because I don't keep every information in my head and the wiki is the only mostly reliable place I go to for information. In most cases it's right. Not on the case of Lord Paramounts, if people who posted about the multiple mentions of the title in the Worldbook are correct. But I myself do not remember those mentions. 

[The Dragons Hand]

Daven is the Warden of the West, but the Lady Paramount status stands with Cersei.

It's kinda up in the air for the Stormlands. Stannis still holds SE until JonCon yoinks it.

[thi4f]

It's not vacant. It's currently filled, by virtue of her ascendancy as Lady of the Rock, by Cersei.

 

I didn't know that Cersei is Lady of the Rock now. Is it an educated guess, or confirmed in the source material? Just curious.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

 

I didn't know that Cersei is Lady of the Rock now. Is it an educated guess, or confirmed in the source material? Just curious.

 

Yes. Not only she thinks so, but also Ser Kevan says so, and appendix says so. She is the Lady of Casterly Rock now.

[Primalsplit]

Stormlands probably don't have a lord paramount at the moment. In theory, Stannis' propery are forfeit and Tommen should own Storm's End, Hence Mace Tyrell laid siege to the castle. Even if Tommen has gotten the keep, someone else should be declared Lord paramount as Tommen can't fulfill this role. Tommen can't even be the lord of Storm's End himself, he should grant it to someone else at least temporarily to rule in his stead.

 

This of course benefits (f)Aegon, who is going to wreck shit in that place and Stormlands will be at least temporarily not be a part of the Kingdom. My answer is: There will be no lord declarent of Stormlands for some time.

[Orphalesion]

 

 

This of course benefits (f)Aegon, who is going to wreck shit in that place and Stormlands will be at least temporarily not be a part of the Kingdom. My answer is: There will be no lord declarent of Stormlands for some time.

 

You are right, the current chaotic and unsure position of the Stormlands is just another sign how inept Cersei is as Queen Regent and how the realm is a "Feast for Crows"

[Nittanian]

The only time that "Lord Paramount" has been used within the five novels is in reference to Petyr Baelish, the "Lord Paramount of the Trident" (note that it is NOT "Lord Paramount of the Riverlands"). TWOIAF world book mentions that Aegon the Conqueror granted the title of "Lord Paramount of the Trident" to Edmyn Tully, so that verified the title was not a new creation of Joffrey for Petyr.

 

The world book also mentions that Aegon named Orys Baratheon the "Lord Paramount of the Stormlands" and Harlen Tyrell the "Lord Paramount of the Mander". The Tyrell chapter uses the alternative phrasing "Lord Paramount of the Reach". The ironborn chapter mentions that Aegon allowed them to choose their own lord paramount (lower case), but the ruling Greyjoy is always referred to within the world book as "Lord of the Iron Islands", not "Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands".

 

None of GRRM's published works thus far have mentioned a "Lord Paramount" title for the north, the westerlands, the Vale, the Iron Islands, or Dorne (which has "Prince/Princess of Dorne" already). The only canonical LP titles so far are "of the Trident", "of the Stormlands", and "of the Mander/Reach".

[Daena the Defiant]

The only time that "Lord Paramount" has been used within the five novels is in reference to Petyr Baelish, the "Lord Paramount of the Trident" (note that it is NOT "Lord Paramount of the Riverlands"). TWOIAF world book mentions that Aegon the Conqueror granted the title of "Lord Paramount of the Trident" to Edmyn Tully, so that verified the title was not a new creation of Joffrey for Petyr.

 

The world book also mentions that Aegon named Orys Baratheon the "Lord Paramount of the Stormlands" and Harlen Tyrell the "Lord Paramount of the Mander". The Tyrell chapter uses the alternative phrasing "Lord Paramount of the Reach". The ironborn chapter mentions that Aegon allowed them to choose their own lord paramount (lower case), but the ruling Greyjoy is always referred to within the world book as "Lord of the Iron Islands", not "Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands".

 

None of GRRM's published works thus far have mentioned a "Lord Paramount" title for the north, the westerlands, the Vale, the Iron Islands, or Dorne (which has "Prince/Princess of Dorne" already). The only canonical LP titles so far are "of the Trident", "of the Stormlands", and "of the Mander/Reach".

 

But each of those realms you mention have a lord who sits at the top of a feudal pyramid and accepts fealty from all those houses benath him - that is the textbook definition of a 'lord paramount.' It's also known as an 'overlord' or "liege" but I don't think liege is used very often either.

 

It's akin to (hypothetically for arguments sake) having Catelyn Stark being referred to as 'married to Lord Eddard," and the "Lady of Winterfell," "mother of his heirs" and describing their wedding, but not actually calling her his "wife" because the text doesn't actually refer to the "wife of Lord Eddard," when other women in the series are described as "wives."  To follow this analogy directly, it's like saying that Cersei was Robert's wife, but we don't know if Ned has a wife because it only describes someone being married to him as his consort.

[DMC]

Yeah this thread is getting really pedantic.  I think everyone can agree, and the books make very clear, who the LPs are of every kingdom/region, whether they're technically called that or not.  Maybe the Starks, Lannisters, and Arryns don't favor the title because as former Kings of their region they prefer to be known by their ancient stronghold instead (plus they traditionally have the cool Warden names).  Same thing with the Greyjoys and the Seastone Chair/Lord Reaper.  In any case, it doesn't matter.