baxus Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 We get that: unfortunately, you also appear to be ignoring the evidence that it can and does. First of all, the fact that it worked in NFL does not mean it would work in football. Second, other posters who are more knowledgeable about NFL than I am, have expressed doubt that increased number of minority coaches is due to that rule only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 First of all, the fact that it worked in NFL does not mean it would work in football. Why wouldn't it? Unless we have some reasonable basis to suggest that association football is different, simply asserting that it might be isn't an argument. Second, other posters who are more knowledgeable about NFL than I am, have expressed doubt that increased number of minority coaches is due to that rule only. So far as I can see, that's one poster, singular, and even that is a stretch, since he credits the 'mindset' behind the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 One other reason the Rooney rule is considered a success is because it is putting black assistant coaches in front of NFL owners. For years, there were plenty of black assistant coaches in the NFL, but virtually none were head coaches. The head coaches and general managers were familiar with these coaches, but owners had limited contact with them. As you know from soccer, head coaches tend to get recycled - a lot. So, plenty of old white ex coaches got interviews with owners, but black assistants did only rarely. That all changed with the Rooney rule. Black assistants were getting interviewed all the time. And here's the thing about NFL owners - they might not associate with the lower ranks of the assistant coaches much, but they do talk to each other frequently. And even if they didn't hire a particular minority candidate, if he did interview well, word gets around in NFL ownership circles. I believe this is credited as one of the reasons Leslie Frasier wound up being hired with the Vikings. He interviewed with the Seahawks as a token (because they had already decided on the coach they wanted) but was very impressive and word quickly got around and he was hired as a head coach at another team in less than a year. I have no idea if this would work for European soccer. I have no idea if there are even many minority assistant coaches in the ranks there. Are there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Why wouldn't it? Unless we have some reasonable basis to suggest that association football is different, simply asserting that it might be isn't an argument. The whole structure of the competition and the sport itself is very different. Youth system setups couldn't be more different even if we tried to make them, drafts, the whole culture of the sport is different. Pretty much every aspect of European football leagues and NFL is different. As someone said - 60+% of NFL athletes are black. I have no idea what that percentage is in Premier League (and other football leagues in Europe) but I'm certain it's much lower than 60%. The same way I will assume that black population percentage in USA is higher than it is in Europe (I am aware that percentage varies significantly around Europe). The only thing they have in common is that huge amount of money is involved around sports. Also, add differences between US society and European societies and you may see why I'm not so sure about this "one size fits all" approach. Once again, I'm not saying this rule would definitely not work. I'm saying it's not certain that it would work. I have no idea if this would work for European soccer. I have no idea if there are even many minority assistant coaches in the ranks there. Are there? Ever since we've started this talk, I've been trying to think of any black managers in top European leagues and couldn't think of any. That sure doesn't mean that there aren't any but I really can't remember right now. As for assistant managers, to be honest I have no idea about their ethnicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The whole structure of the competition and the sport itself is very different. Youth system setups couldn't be more different even if we tried to make them, drafts, the whole culture of the sport is different. Also the balls are a different shape. But how does any of this relate to whether the Rooney rule would not work in association football? Answer: it doesn't. You need a reason to think this, and you haven't given one. The percentage of black players might be somewhat lower, but the proportion of those getting high-profile management jobs is likely lower still: that isn't an argument for why the Rooney rule wouldn't work, it's an argument as to why it's worth trying. Heck, you yourself acknowledge that you can't name any black managers in a top European league. So long as that's true, and nobody is offering any other solutions, why not try something that's worked elsewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Heck, you yourself acknowledge that you can't name any black managers in a top European league. So long as that's true, and nobody is offering any other solutions, why not try something that's worked elsewhere? I find it offensive to minority candidates to call them in for interviews when you have no interest in hiring them and all you want to do is use them to cover your ass. And you are still going on about how it actually worked elsewhere with absolutely no concrete evidence. Rooney rule is not in effect in NBA and a quick Google search shows there have been 14 black head coaches in 2002 and 2012. And that's out of 30 teams, not 32, so the black head coaches percentage on those occasions was even higher than in NFL. And one of those times was in 2002, a year BEFORE Rooney Rule came in effect in NFL (if I remember Mister OJ's posts correctly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Because of several factors (the largest being that about 80 percent of NBA players are black, and it has been that way for decades) the NBA has always been much more likely to hire minority coaches than the NFL. There has never been a reason to have a Rooney rule in the NBA, because the problem of hiring minorities into head coaching positions did not exist. It did exist in the NFL, so they enacted the Rooney rule. And it helped. There appears to be a problem in Euro soccer as well. The question then becomes, do you do something to try and fix it (like having a version of the Rooney rule, which has been proven to help) or do you just ignore it and hope that it gets better on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I find it offensive to minority candidates to call them in for interviews when you have no interest in hiring them and all you want to do is use them to cover your ass. I'm not sure you being offended on behalf of minority candidates is a real concern, compared to the massive under-representation that we all agree is going on. Besides, nobody's suggested that they should be interviewed only as an ass-covering measure. This is just resorting to the straw man, a sure sign of having nothing better left to argue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Just one other quick note about the NBA and diversity in hiring... There is a very real possibility that in the next year or two, the NBA will have a female head coach in Becky Hammon. I think that's really remarkable, when you think about it. Honest question, because I have no idea: Where does the world of league football stand as far as women managers? Has there been female assistant coaches before? Do you see a woman being hired to head a major European team anytime soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 That's really cool. Will be a while before football has that but it will happen at some point and that will be a good day Eta: in answer to your questions. No there are none and there won't be in the near future. What this says about our sport, its history, the ruling bodies and our culture in general isn't great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 Dzeko on loan to Roma "with a view to buy". Fucking love Serie A. Eta: Also City are on the verge of taking over Girona in Spain's second tier. I assume this is for work permit and loan purposes. Welcome to the City family. I hope this results in cheap flights to a nice place in Spain through my City season ticket at some point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 They had Shelley Kerr as the coach for the Arsenal Ladies team, but it was rumoured that part of the reason that she left was because Vic Akers was always looking over her shoulder whilst she was a coach ( Vic Akers was the coach of the ladies team before Kerr). I've got to agree with Alex, it will be a while before we see a women take over a top team in the english league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 They had Shelley Kerr as the coach for the Arsenal Ladies team, but it was rumoured that part of the reason that she left was because Vic Akers was always looking over her shoulder whilst she was a coach ( Vic Akers was the coach of the ladies team before Kerr). I've got to agree with Alex, it will be a while before we see a women take over a top team in the english league. Need even an assistant manager, even one on the coaching staff, at any of the 92 before we're even in touching distance of the discussion about a manager at a top club. It's pathetic and shameful at best. On the plus side it was announced today that 40,000 more women have been playing football regularly since 2 years ago. This in combination with the increased profile and huge (percentage) increase at women's Super League games... maybe we're heading in the right direction. Needs so much more work, but maybe. Got my ticket today for City Women at the new academy stadium on the 30th August. £6. Six pounds. Absolute fucking bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 ESPN FC has a cool little feature about how much the individual kits are worth to the EPL clubs. It's really interesting that ManU gets nearly double what the next closest competitor makes off its kit deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 Organic growth that is. Healthy, organic growth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Organic growth that is. Healthy, organic growth You're just jealous coz Ed Woodward is such a good gardener. Mind you, when was the renewal on your kit deal signed? Because even taking our humongous game-breaker out of the equation, 17mil a year seems quite behind the times when you compare it to the teams around you, and when you compare it to the sponsorship deal on it. It's surely going to spike massively when the next one comes around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex. Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 You're just jealous coz Ed Woodward is such a good gardener. Mind you, when was the renewal on your kit deal signed? Because even taking our humongous game-breaker out of the equation, 17mil a year seems quite behind the times when you compare it to the teams around you, and when you compare it to the sponsorship deal on it. It's surely going to spike massively when the next one comes around? Yeah our kit and stadium deal which people STILL reckon is a massive conspiracy despite it being cleared by the FFP people is about £20m a year I think. No idea when it's up for renewal Eta: that also covers academy naming rights. Having thought about it I *think* it runs to 2018... but not 100% on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 To answer a previous question: polish, how good is Grzegorz Krychowiak? Honestly don't really know. Haven't been paying attention to him at all even when watching Poland or Sevilla and by all accounts he's not the sort of player to catch the eye if you're not looking for it. He got in the La Liga team of the season last year though so he must be doing somethin right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Got my list of rules from nycfc on visiting the baseball stadium they play in. Apparently I am not allowed to come in costume, carry weapons, have a pet or drone, oh and I cannot curse. Great christ shit fuck dick cunt asshole bitch! This is forbid in your stadium? I've seen people get bounced for it in the bleachers but you should be safe in 223 (?). I can't wait until we have our own stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercenaryChef Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I've seen people get bounced for it in the bleachers but you should be safe in 223 (?). I can't wait until we have our own stadium. we will meet tomorrow, dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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