Darryk Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Cousins marrying cousins was practically institutionalized in the middle ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Cousins marrying cousins was practically institutionalized in the middle ages.I do not think this is always true since in many cases the families needed dispens from the pope and being too closely related was often a reason for annulment of a marriage, granted by the pope. For example when no sons were sired or the ruler needed a new alliance. See Louis and Alienor of Aquitaine. Obviously both dispens and annulment were used as instruments of political games by both church and kings depending on the power situation. They had nothing to do with deeper religious convictions, neither from the side of the Church nor from the side of rulers. Or any "eeewww" factor of cousin marriages, all that was pure hypocrisy used as excuse for political intrigue. If Sansa and Jon marry it will be purely political, no erotic attraction, tolerance at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 I do not think this is always true since in many cases the families needed dispens from the pope and being too closely related was often a reason for annulment of a marriage, granted by the pope. For example when no sons were sired or the ruler needed a new alliance. See Louis and Alienor of Aquitaine. Obviously both dispens and annulment were used as instruments of political games by both church and kings depending on the power situation. They had nothing to do with deeper religious convictions, neither from the side of the Church nor from the side of rulers. Or any "eeewww" factor of cousin marriages, all that was pure hypocrisy used as excuse for political intrigue. If Sansa and Jon marry it will be purely political, no erotic attraction, tolerance at best. Such dispens from the pope were handed out like party favors in the middle ages. It was very, very common to happen. Spanish Hapsburgs married Aunt/nephew, Niece/Uncle and eventually they had the Hapsburg chin and so many abnormalities. Like the Targaryens, brother/sister etc, Madness etc. First Cousins is much less of a risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Actually in the case of Louis and Alienor it took longer than Alienor had hoped for. It was not that easy, especially if both parties had non converging interests. I do not think that people in a timesetting like Martin's books were really aware of any risks lying in close sanguinity for having a child, certainly not of the different odds for hereditary diseases for cousins or siblings. And, finally, having a child with a closely related person can only enforce traits that already are in the family. What is not there cannot be passed on. Cousin or sibling pregnancies do not "make" a Hapsburg chin or any other genetic problem if it is not already somewhere. Incestuous relationships have been frowned upon in many societies because of the danger of abuse for helpless young ones and because exogamic marriages were a means to find new allies by enlarging the family circle. The time societies of old had to observe hereditary problems was much too short to see incest as health risk, given the short lifespans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Moriarty Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 :shocked: I really don't get the Jon and Sansa ship. Same as the Jon and Arya ship :dunno: (BTW, new guy here haha :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 :shocked: I really don't get the Jon and Sansa ship. Same as the Jon and Arya ship :dunno: (BTW, new guy here haha :D ) welcome. In the original outline before the first novel was written, GRRM had Jon and Arya together and fall in love after it was found out that they were cousins and not sibblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 You know, I've rethought my post a bit. I'm now thinking B&B might take a page from another of GRRM's works, "A portrait of his children". A "damaged" Sansa might need Jon's "comfort". (Yeah, I know. Yuck!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 You know, I've rethought my post a bit. I'm now thinking B&B might take a page from another of GRRM's works, "A portrait of his children". A "damaged" Sansa might need Jon's "comfort". (Yeah, I know. Yuck!) Tough to call on Sansa as they have taken her story away from her to get her into Ramsay's hands. Really, no way to sure call what is her state of mind or not. She is a wild card but it would appear they meeting between her and Jon is highly likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 You know, I've rethought my post a bit. I'm now thinking B&B might take a page from another of GRRM's works, "A portrait of his children". A "damaged" Sansa might need Jon's "comfort". (Yeah, I know. Yuck!) I'm with you... where's vomit.gif when you need it? Hoping with everything in me that Jon doesn't end up with either Sansa or Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 They are totally setting up Sansa and Jon on the show. See http://photos.vanityfair.com/2014/04/07/5342cc9d7686d86f770114c3_symbolism1.gif https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/8e/be/48/8ebe48948a3cdf9492f32cfa205debc0.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/07/article-2598495-1CE4909300000578-3_634x474.jpg http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/jon-dany-promo.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/game-of-thrones-dany-laughing.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/game-of-thrones-jon-dany.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/game-of-thrones-swordplay.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1251-EW-COVER-got.jpg http://data.whicdn.com/images/153103896/large.png http://image.blingee.com/images19/content/output/000/000/000/7e3/801118082_844114.gif I like blonde Sansa, she seems so empowered with the waking of the dragons and her war against the slavers. I think it's fits that she changed her name to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nataliespeaking Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Jon and dany is who I think will marry for political reasons. Dany is not opposed to political marriages as seen in the last season. Also they both lost their first loves. Dany says in the first book that she had always expected to marry her brother so I don't think she would be opposed to marrying her nephew to keep the bloodline pure and an even stronger claim on the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 They are totally setting up Sansa and Jon on the show. See http://photos.vanityfair.com/2014/04/07/5342cc9d7686d86f770114c3_symbolism1.gif https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/8e/be/48/8ebe48948a3cdf9492f32cfa205debc0.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/07/article-2598495-1CE4909300000578-3_634x474.jpg http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/jon-dany-promo.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/game-of-thrones-dany-laughing.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/game-of-thrones-jon-dany.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/game-of-thrones-swordplay.jpg http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/1251-EW-COVER-got.jpg http://data.whicdn.com/images/153103896/large.png http://image.blingee.com/images19/content/output/000/000/000/7e3/801118082_844114.gif I like blonde Sansa, she seems so empowered with the waking of the dragons and her war against the slavers. I think it's fits that she changed her name to Dany.I think the blue flower from the text is supposed to be a blue winter rose. They bloom in winter. It could still have significance though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I think the blue flower from the text is supposed to be a blue winter rose. They bloom in winter. It could still have significance though. Oh so you think D&D were like hey you know what lets just toss in a random blue rose to the girl that saw the blue rose in the books but it won't have any significance. Could not possibly be the old D&D clue bat. The rose from the show was called a dusk rose, Jon who is by and large considered the blue rose is in the commander of the Night's watch. Hey dusk? Night? Oh I think just maybe they have an idea about Jon and Dany. It also reduces fever, like the kind of fever you might have while having fever dreams. But probably not the same at all, just some blue rose that sneaked into the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nataliespeaking Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I will say one thing in favor of Jon/Sansa..........he has a thing for redheads! Lol (which could tie into his sub conscience need for approval from red headed catelyn who would never love him) haha I joke I joke :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Good essay on this very question: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-relationship-between-Jon-Snow-and-Sansa-Stark-like I had the desire to return to this particular piece - which is a repurposed use of Tze's Pawn-to-Player post here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/?p=3550409 With all due respect to the poster, I see this particular post bandied about in Jon and Sansa discussions, and wanted to take a run through myself on it. First, Sansa and knighthood - the most direct comments on knighthood by the author are with Jaime, Sandor and the Kingsguard. In Sansa's case her experiences with the Kingsguard and her thoughts concerning Sandor are more pointed and poignant in regard to her growing disdain for knights than any comparison between knighthood and Jon Snow as a non-knight. Disdain that held up until the released Alayne TWoW chapter, where I'm not so certain of her current attitude. Second, simply because Sansa chooses in AFfC to be 14 years old (an "older woman," she says) does not mean she is patterning herself as Alayne Stone on Jon Snow. Nor do her thoughts about dancing or not at the Gates of the Moon equal her "subconsciously" thinking of Jon. As we see in the Alayne TWoW chapter [spoiler] Sansa/Alayne chooses to dance. [/spoiler] This is the same with Sansa's thoughts on being "bastard brave" - Sansa is patterning herself after Jon is not "the obvious answer." Bravery in Sansa's final chapter in AFfC is more closely tied to Sansa's fear of the descent (her bravery a direct contrast to Catelyn's fear crossing the saddle in AGoT) and, perhaps more importantly, to the environment she will encounter below at the Gates of the Moon. I was safe here, she thought, but down below... Down below is where she must be brave. Sansa's "caregiver" role with Sweetrobin links her more to motherhood than it does to Jon. I firmly doubt that Sansa has had "Jon on the brain throughout AFfC." Transposing Sansa's comment that it would be "sweet" to see Jon again, after thinking he is all the family she has left, into a previously unseen, or commented upon by her, "subconscious longing" is a stretch. The "culmination of (Sansa's) ideological journey" is not her half-brother, but her own recognition of the value of people, all people; an acceptance of class levels, shown by her mingling well within all ranks as Alayne. As for knighthood, she rejected it in ACoK, but seems to have forgotten those lessons when she turns to [spoiler] create the Brotherhood of Winged Knights, based on the Kingsguard, for Sweetrobin [/spoiler] in the released Alayne chapter from TWoW. This turnaround, as I see it, is either Sansa's forgetfulness or the author's. To summarize, I do not see the links suggested in Tze's post as a touchstone for future interaction between Sansa Stark and Jon Snow. I do see that the show, by shoehorning Sansa into Jeyne Poole's role from the novels has brought to the fore the idea that perhaps Sansa continues on the show in Jeyne's footsteps, but then, she'd be Jeyne, wouldn't she? And not Sansa. Sansa is still off playing at Alayne Stone in the Gates of the Moon, far removed from the Wall and it's goings on. She's busy there following Littlefinger's outline for how to win Harrold Hardyng's heart and not subconsciously longing for Jon. Now, her lockstepping with Littlefinger and it's similarity to Jeyne's training at his hands, now that's interesting (but off topic.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Good points. One could write something like that about just about any two characters. All you have to do is leave out the big things, and make the small things seem like more than they are. Sandor is barely mentioned, even though she herself mentions him in nearly every chapter since the series began. And a Mya parallel was set up in a Catelyn chapter, and also involved a Sandor parallel (Mya/Lothor and Alayne/Sandor). And like you said, Sweetrobin was about motherhood, and there are parallels, again, with Sandor and Arya (the same exact wording). The show even went there, she disciplines Sweetrobin, and she's called out as motherly (his mother should have done that). Sandor disciplines Arya, and he's called out as fatherly. Also all the times she thinks of Lady, and there's the Hound, either she bumps into him or he's in her thoughts and dreams. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it. If you do a close reading, the connection with Sandor is just overwhelming. Many hints along these lines on the show, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Good points. One could write something like that about just about any two characters. All you have to do is leave out the big things, and make the small things seem like more than they are. Sandor is barely mentioned, even though she herself mentions him in nearly every chapter since the series began. And a Mya parallel was set up in a Catelyn chapter, and also involved a Sandor parallel (Mya/Lothor and Alayne/Sandor). And like you said, Sweetrobin was about motherhood, and there are parallels, again, with Sandor and Arya (the same exact wording). The show even went there, she disciplines Sweetrobin, and she's called out as motherly (his mother should have done that). Sandor disciplines Arya, and he's called out as fatherly. Also all the times she thinks of Lady, and there's the Hound, either she bumps into him or he's in her thoughts and dreams. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it. If you do a close reading, the connection with Sandor is just overwhelming. If Sansa is "destined" for any character, on the show or elsewhere, it's Sandor. Hasn't GRRM even confirmed that there are some "Beauty and the Beast" parallels there? With everything that the show decided to remove in Sansa's arc, they chose to include the moment when Sansa and Sandor are in the hall together, and when he rescues her from being raped by the mob. And of course, there's the "Mother's Mercy" scene... "No, little bird, I won't hurt you." :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nataliespeaking Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I think sandor's relationship with her is only one as a morally grey guardian to show he has a good side too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I think sandor's relationship with her is only one as a morally grey guardian to show he has a good side too. Perhaps. I don't really "ship" it at this point on the show, because the casting was done so that he's way too old/inappropriate (Sandor is only in his mid/late 20s in canon). But a lot of people ignore their connections in favor of more obscure ones. Long after she's parted from him, Sansa is still thinking about their last encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 If Sansa is "destined" for any character, on the show or elsewhere, it's Sandor. Hasn't GRRM even confirmed that there are some "Beauty and the Beast" parallels there? With everything that the show decided to remove in Sansa's arc, they chose to include the moment when Sansa and Sandor are in the hall together, and when he rescues her from being raped by the mob. And of course, there's the "Mother's Mercy" scene... "No, little bird, I won't hurt you." :wub: Yes, he did. Books and show. Beauty and the Beast. Here's the Blackwater scene... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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