xjlxking Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 21 hours ago, JEORDHl said: But that's my point. Statistical rule negating lower ratings because the majority gave it high ones? Or am I misunderstanding your argument? If the former, it's ridiculous. From a subjective point of view, when I see 10s being doled out en masse cause, manipulated feels, instead of feels on merit [meaning, in-character and logically consistent with established motivation(s) and conflict(s)] I'd argue instead that reality is actually inverted and the insane are describing what sanity is. It doesn't negate all lower ratings. Only the absolute opposite. When you have a negative curve and one side holds like 80% votes, without a doubt the 1s would be outliers you might not agree with it, but in statistics, you are wrong. Hence why I said, that saying ones opinion is worth as much as anyone's is completely wrong. That's not really an excuse. It really is how the world functions. When you vote, the majority get what they want passes, the minority must follow. IMDb, metacritic and even RT(I didn't check this one) do the same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said: That analogy doesn't work at all. Jurassic World grossing 1.6 billion dollars isn't any indication that people thought it was good, only that a lot of people went to see it. If johndance had used viewership numbers in his argument, the analogy would have worked a lot better. People giving the show a 10/10 isn't really an indication that GOT is the best tv series ever, only that the vast majority really enjoyed the episode. True, but jondance's implication was that these numbers do prove that it was the best show ever. He stated: Quote Case closed imo. One of the best written, acted, and directed hours in TV history. Numbers don't lie. The analogy that JEORDHl used would counter his claim that the numbers don't lie. The fact that Jurassic World grossed as much as it did, would suggest that it was a good movie, but as I'm sure most of us would admit, this is not the case, and proves that the numbers do lie. Any numbers derived from either a fan poll, or how many viewers saw something is useless in judging the quality of something. Popularity does not equate to quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Darkstream said: True, but jondance's implication was that these numbers do prove that it was the best show ever. He stated: The analogy that JEORDHl used would counter his claim that the numbers don't lie. The fact that Jurassic World grossed as much as it did, would suggest that it was a good movie, but as I'm sure most of us would admit, this is not the case, and proves that the numbers do lie. Any numbers derived from either a fan poll, or how many viewers saw something is useless in judging the quality of something. Popularity does not equate to quality. It's hard to compare between two tv shows. One person did not watch both tv series. you are using gross revenue to act as if that's the same as voting. It's not! You can claim that Jurassic is top 10(is it?) grossing movies worldwide. Numbers don't lie! Just because you try to use numbers to prove a point that has nothing to do with that set of data does not make this statement any less true. You ca tell me that X amount of people voted died in 2016 and then make a statement that has nothing to do with those in order to say, see numbers lie. Edited June 21, 2016 by xjlxking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 23 minutes ago, johndance said: Who decides if the writing is good? You do know that there are objective means in which a work of literature can be judged. There are established academic standards that use criteria such as plot, consistency, characterization etc. to determine whether a work of literature is good or not. When judged by these standards, Got fails miserably. I mean, have you never taken an English class when you were in school? Did you not learn about these things? I wish my English teacher used your method of grading my projects, I could have aced my classes, stating that my work was perfect and deserved an A+ just because I personally liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefinger of the Hand Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) TRULLY PATHETIC. A useless - a dangerously useless- Jon Snow, an awesome Sansa, thanks to the teleportation of Littlefinger's army, a huge.... no, no.... two huge armies approaching the battlefield UNNOTICED and a great sense through all the episode "Just finish quickly this show within the episode numbers we have to..." 3/10 thank to Ramsay's end. Oh, and Tyrion was great too. Although Dany still is in the mood, "I have to take back what is mine, in just 11 more episodes. Let us hurry!!!!" The worst episode so far Edited June 21, 2016 by Littlefinger of the Hand Additional good points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, xjlxking said: It's hard to compare between two tv shows. One person did not watch both tv series. I never compared two tv shows to each other. Quote you are using gross revenue to act as if that's the same as voting. It's not! You can claim that Jurassic is top 10(is it?) grossing movies worldwide. No, I never said it was the same thing. My point was this. If 100 people choose to go to one show, and only 10 people choose to go to another show, then those numbers would suggest that the former was a better show. However, this is not the case, these numbers in essence, lie. Just because a majority of the people choose to see the first show and enjoy that type of a show, it does not mean it is better than the latter. The same goes for voting in a poll, just because a majority think that this show is good, it does not make it so. These polls confirm the popularity of Got, it does not speak to the quality of it in any way. Quote Numbers don't lie! Quote Just because you try to use numbers to prove a point that has nothing to do with that set of data does not make this statement any less true. You ca tell me that X amount of people voted died in 2016 and then make a statement that has nothing to do with those in order to say, see numbers lie. I'm not trying to use numbers to prove a point. My whole point is that you can't use these numbers to prove a point. I'm not sure where you get this from? The gross income of Jurassic world is useless in judging the quality of it. The number of 10 votes that Got received is useless in judging the quality of it. That's a fact. Edited June 21, 2016 by Darkstream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonWoman Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I gave it a 10. I am past complaining about bad writing and narrative jumps. You don't bite the hand that feeds you and at this point, unless GRRM gets me a book, the show is feeding me. And this episode was so EPIC. Someone else said cinematic and I totally agree. The Dany scene was the best Dany scene yet. I liked the Yara/Theon interaction, it was interesting which is more than I can say about most dialogue involving Dany. And her kicking ass with her Dragons was so good. Also Greyworm ninja neck slicing. Very nice. The battle scene. So visceral. Jon being an emotional dummy was not tactically smart, but understandable and added to sense of hopelessness throughout the whole battle. I felt Rickon's dying was very sad. Even though we don't know him in the books or show, we know he is still just a child and it stung. I didn't mind the Vale's Rohan moment at all. I can only hope we have an "Its the eagles!" moment later with the dragons and Sam and Jon while they lay almost dying somewhere. Davos. He is a great actor and a good person. That is rare in Westeros. Ramsay's execution was perfect. At Sansa's hands and he had fear in his voice. I liked her smile. She deserves it. She has lived through Joffery and then Ramsay so you go girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Darkstream said: You do know that there are objective means in which a work of literature can be judged. There are established academic standards that use criteria such as plot, consistency, characterization etc. to determine whether a work of literature is good or not. When judged by these standards, Got fails miserably. I mean, have you never taken an English class when you were in school? Did you not learn about these things? I wish my English teacher used your method of grading my projects, I could have aced my classes, stating that my work was perfect and deserved an A+ just because I personally liked it. Hahahahahaha Love it! Creatively it made sense to me, so I gave myself an A+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said: Hahahahahaha Love it! Creatively it made sense to me, so I gave myself an A+ OK, you owe me a fresh coffee and a new kewboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Live The Onion King Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Great episode. Dany finally got interesting again. The Battle of the Bastards and Ramsay's end lived up to expectations. The only criticism I have is why wouldn't Sansa let Jon know about Littlefinger and the Vale army. Makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 43 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said: Creatively it made sense to me, so I gave myself an A+ Well done hahaha... One of the D's hoisted on his own petard. And gratitude to Darkstream for continuing on in my absence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xjlxking Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 36 minutes ago, Darkstream said: I never compared two tv shows to each other. No, I never said it was the same thing. My point was this. If 100 people choose to go to one show, and only 10 people choose to go to another show, then those numbers would suggest that the former was a better show. However, this is not the case, these numbers in essence, lie. Just because a majority of the people choose to see the first show and enjoy that type of a show, it does not mean it is better than the latter. The same goes for voting in a poll, just because a majority think that this show is good, it does not make it so. These polls confirm the popularity of Got, it does not speak to the quality of it in any way. I'm not trying to use numbers to prove a point. My whole point is that you can't use these numbers to prove a point. I'm not sure where you get this from? The gross income of Jurassic world is useless in judging the quality of it. The number of 10 votes that Got received is useless in judging the quality of it. That's a fact. I know what you are trying to say. "You can't use numbers to prove a point". My responsive is it depends on what data you are using to prove a point. You or someone that's arguing the same thing said, Jurassic Park grossed a lot of money and that does not mean it is highly rated. Obviously, you are right, but those two have very little correlation. It's like going up to someone and saying I weight 150LB and that's why i'm taller. The numbers did not lie, it's what you tried to prove using them. AND to your other statements YES, you can't really judge the movie based on what it grossed in the box office. Very few people will claim that. You don't see people running around telling you GOT episode 10 was the best episode because 9 million people watched it. No, they are telling you when people were asked what they would rate the episode, a high majority (75%) rated it 9-10. How do you not understand the correlation between being asked how good a show is in a scale of 1-10 and the quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, xjlxking said: OK, I understand what you are saying and agree. The point was that the poster who said "numbers don't lie" was trying to use them them to prove something that it didn't. This is were my argument that the numbers do lie stems from. In an earlier post of mine I stated that I don't deny that it proved the show is popular, just that it doesn't mean it's good. So I'll revise my stance to be more acurate, the numbers are not lying, certain people will manipulate the numbers or misrepresent them. It's people that lie, not the numbers. Edited June 21, 2016 by Darkstream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, xjlxking said: How do you not understand the correlation between being asked how good a show is in a scale of 1-10 and the quality? I understand the premise perfectly. What I dispute is what you'd submit as the conclusion of that data. 75% rating it 9-10 based on spectacle and the reveling in the death of a villain who was exaggerated so that people would revel in it, and purchase buy-in to the 'empowered' Sansa bullshit so cheaply? Excepting Jon and Ramsay's parley, the fiber of the dialogue in this episode was coarse to leathern at best. Character actions ranged from nonsensical [Sansa] to droll [Tyrion, Dany, Yara], and while the action was well filmed I won't ever buy that Ramsay suddenly acquired a drill disciplined group of armed and armored Sarissa-Men without hiring from across the Narrow Sea. The high-point of the Episode was Jon finally reawakening to life once more. The rest, barring production value, was an unimaginative mummers farce parceled with wish fulfillment-- instead of quality characterization that would justify my rating it highly. Edited June 21, 2016 by JEORDHl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 2 hours ago, xjlxking said: It doesn't negate all lower ratings. Only the absolute opposite. When you have a negative curve and one side holds like 80% votes, without a doubt the 1s would be outliers you might not agree with it, but in statistics, you are wrong. Hence why I said, that saying ones opinion is worth as much as anyone's is completely wrong. That's not really an excuse. It really is how the world functions. When you vote, the majority get what they want passes, the minority must follow. IMDb, metacritic and even RT(I didn't check this one) do the same thing So, I will admit my statistics isn't as up to snuff as it should be given my job title, but in what world is something composing 5-10% (depending on how you're defining low rankings) as outliers? They do show that there is a clustering of activity around that point for some reason. I know if 5% of our sample was wrong in audit testing, we would be f***ed, and would consider that indicative of a pervasive issue with the population, unless we could identify why those specific 5-10% were off (maybe all performed by same accountant). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Those who voted this episode a 10 are of course entitled to do so. I find it ridiculous that people complain about people voting at either extreme. However, in order to vote 10 for this episode you would have to be willing to give full marks to something that is flawed. I don't mind this. I've considered some films to be 5 star films despite flaws but they would usually be truly extraordinary in some other way that renders the flaws relatively inconsequential. And the truth is, this episode was far from flawless and that can undoubtedly be said objectively. It was probably the best technical episode in GoT history but it is riddled with laughable moments and ridiculous character choices. What are we to make of Sansa's choices? Doesn't Littlefinger's involvement somewhat undermine the beauty of the Stark victory? How did Jon not only survive but not even get hit by an arrow after falling for Ramsay's trap (pure dumb luck is not usually considered good storytelling)? Why did Ramsay shoot Wun-Wun instead of Jon and why did nobody in that well-populated courtyard do anything to stop him? Why did Viserion and Rhaegal wait until that moment to break out of their holding room? How were the Masters so shocked by Drogon coming out of hiding when we had previously seen him flying over the battle? Why did they invent a conversation between Theon and Tyrion that never happened and why did they spend so long on making Theon feel bad for Tyrion being rude to him IN BOTH encounters? How was Shireen's wooden stag still intact amongst the ashes of her burning? There is little craft to their storytelling. It's all about manipulation. I consider GoT more a product than a story. The best things they do from a writing perspective tend to be callbacks and parallels. As a product, it works. it's successful. D&D know their audience and the majority laps up the few episodes they spend the majority of their effort and budget on. But it is certainly not flawless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 16 hours ago, Leto Atreides said: Well, for a start. You don't leave him in plain view with your foot soldiers as if he was just one of them. - You can hide him in the forest and have him charge the rear or flanks of the Bolton army in the middle of the fight - You can build him a shield made of trees so he can move toward the enemy army fullly protected and not become a pincushion. - You can make him carry en even bigger, wider shield so he can move close to the enemy with lots of men behind him. - You can make him hurl rocks at the enemy from behind that shield, like a living catapult. Bolton's army was not by the trees. The other points may work, but have nothing to do with surprise, as you said. I don't know that they think very creatively with their battle tactics. But Wun Wun was horribly utilized. As they pretty much were by the wildlings as well, whom had known/used them for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 10/10...my first 10 in 3 years i thought the episode kicked fucking ass...every bit was brilliant...my only complaint, not enough time left to flesh out bran and benjen, arya, brienne and pod, or cersei and jamie....also is blackfish new stoneheart or is it sansa...who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServantOnIce Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Best episode of the season, one of the best of the series along with Baelor, Fire and Blood, Blackwater, Mhysa, Watchers on The Wall and Hardhome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan Whitebeard Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 14 hours ago, malendoriancavalry said: U butthurt? Butthurt? LOL, look again at those ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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