HellasLEAF Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Biggest criticism for me is Jon running out and abandoning all strategy. (A double envelopment. You know, a pincer move). Right right. How about run out there full tilt (after somehow being able to even spot Rickon from such a distance). And this after Sansa pleaded with him to do exactly the opposite. Jon is lucky to be a live (literally). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywinelle Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 29 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said: Biggest criticism for me is Jon running out and abandoning all strategy. (A double envelopment. You know, a pincer move). Right right. How about run out there full tilt (after somehow being able to even spot Rickon from such a distance). And this after Sansa pleaded with him to do exactly the opposite. Jon is lucky to be a live (literally). It's true. Jon actually deserved to die. Not saying I wanted him to be defeated but that was epic stupidity on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I really hate that people are calling Ramsey a tactical genius.. Really.. no.. not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Oh hey, according to actors from the show, Ghost doesn't belong on the battlefield because direwolves wouldn't last in a battle. Just so we all know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 38 minutes ago, Simon Steele said: Oh hey, according to actors from the show, Ghost doesn't belong on the battlefield because direwolves wouldn't last in a battle. Just so we all know. He's right, honestly the direwolves shouldn't be that hard to bring down with a 3 to 1 number edge but that's not why he wasn't there of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmug Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said: I really hate that people are calling Ramsey a tactical genius.. Really.. no.. not at all. Obviously not a tactical genius, but he did play Jon Snow like a fiddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, tmug said: Obviously not a tactical genius, but he did play Jon Snow like a fiddle. Everyone saw that coming though. It wasn't even playing anyone like a fiddle- because in most cases if your enemy held your sibling you'd basically be screwed. That is why capturing Jamie was such a big win for Robb. Cersei killed his sisters, he'd kill Jamie. No one willingly sieges or goes to war with someone holding their blood without a trade or just not caring about the relative. It's another piece of bad plot design and writing. It 1. Makes both Sansa and Jon come across as dolts, maybe just Jon since Sansa may be evil now. 2. Jon's new life and Sansas situation should have been enough to make him want to retake winterfell. 3. It killed Rickon because Got so edgy kill everyone, even though his death had no emotional impact.. my wife literally asked me who the heck it was. Jon didn't get played because he charged emotionally after his brother died feet from being safe. Jon got played because DnD have forgotten how politics in a feudal society play out, or never cared to begin with. Reference Stannis burning the one person who would be his heir if he retook the Iron throne. The more I think about this stuff the more it annoys me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Ramsey- send horse to horse instead of just chilling behind arrows and and pike. Though I have to admit; all of Ramseys actions in battle fit his general character build and showed some inexperience as a war commander. it was one of the more believable parts of the whole episode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmug Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said: Everyone saw that coming though. It wasn't even playing anyone like a fiddle- because in most cases if your enemy held your sibling you'd basically be screwed. That is why capturing Jamie was such a big win for Robb. Cersei killed his sisters, he'd kill Jamie. No one willingly sieges or goes to war with someone holding their blood without a trade or just not caring about the relative. It's another piece of bad plot design and writing. It 1. Makes both Sansa and Jon come across as dolts, maybe just Jon since Sansa may be evil now. 2. Jon's new life and Sansas situation should have been enough to make him want to retake winterfell. 3. It killed Rickon because Got so edgy kill everyone, even though his death had no emotional impact.. my wife literally asked me who the heck it was. Jon didn't get played because he charged emotionally after his brother died feet from being safe. Jon got played because DnD have forgotten how politics in a feudal society play out, or never cared to begin with. Reference Stannis burning the one person who would be his heir if he retook the Iron throne. The more I think about this stuff the more it annoys me. Well obviously everybody but Jon Snow. Ramsay knew how he would react to Rickon running towards him. Sansa + the Blackfish, they knew how to handle a hostage situation. It must be the Tully side that has the brains apparently. At least the common sense of how to deal with hostage situations. Gosh, if the Blackfish were there to counsel for his niece and Jon maybe Jon and his army would have fared better! The Blackfish was totally wrong in not escaping with Brienne to get back with Sansa, he would have set Jon Snow straight and held him back by the balls! No doubt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Someone told DnD that politics is boring.. except it is the main basis for the entire show. I mean I can't remember exactly but the cloak and dagger political moves and surprises across the board out weigh the epic battle scenes. Yet we've moved past them for some reason. There is no build up to anything anymore. It's just do-do-do-do-do. Like why say Varys is going on a secret mission? Have him just say goodbye to Tyrion randomly and have fans going.. wait what is going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmug Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said: Ramsey- send horse to horse instead of just chilling behind arrows and and pike. Though I have to admit; all of Ramseys actions in battle fit his general character build and showed some inexperience as a war commander. it was one of the more believable parts of the whole episode #1 thing Ramsay did wrong was to empty out Winterfell and meet them out in the field. If he stays in Winterfell, the Vale army's cavalry is not nearly as effective. They had 6 months provisions, archers up the wazoo and Winter is Coming. Let them starve, freeze, and mutiny in a matter of months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, tmug said: #1 thing Ramsay did wrong was to empty out Winterfell and meet them out in the field. If he stays in Winterfell, the Vale army's cavalry is not nearly as effective. They had 6 months provisions, archers up the wazoo and Winter is Coming. Let them starve, freeze, and mutiny in a matter of months. The only thought on that was provisions for 6,000 men in what they show to be winterfell would be tight. since winterfell in show is so small I can't imagine 6000 soldiers could easily fit in there. Though those men were made up of loyal houses; so they'd be home so yeah.. just hold up. But that doesn't fit Ramsey at all; which is again something I can give them credit for. At least they manage to make the villains consistent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmug Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said: Someone told DnD that politics is boring.. except it is the main basis for the entire show. I mean I can't remember exactly but the cloak and dagger political moves and surprises across the board out weigh the epic battle scenes. Yet we've moved past them for some reason. There is no build up to anything anymore. It's just do-do-do-do-do. Like why say Varys is going on a secret mission? Have him just say goodbye to Tyrion randomly and have fans going.. wait what is going on? I still maintain that Hardholme was the best battle sequence by far. The surprise of Jon killing that WW with Longclaw was the best little surprise I have witnessed in this series. It was no where in the books and it wasn't cliche or cheesy, it was genuine bas-ass-ery and Jon Snow was the man after that! Despite losing the battle and pretty much retreating, all of it was very unexpected and that made it super entertaining to watch! The fact that the "good guys" lost made it that much better, more practical. I personally liked Blackwater after that because it was the first real battle sequence they showed and for the most part stayed true to the book (no chain). Tyrion and Stannis were equally bad-ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, tmug said: I still maintain that Hardholme was the best battle sequence by far. The surprise of Jon killing that WW with Longclaw was the best little surprise I have witnessed in this series. It was no where in the books and it wasn't cliche or cheesy, it was genuine bas-ass-ery and Jon Snow was the man after that! Despite losing the battle and pretty much retreating, all of it was very unexpected and that made it super entertaining to watch! The fact that the "good guys" lost made it that much better, more practical. I personally liked Blackwater after that because it was the first real battle sequence they showed and for the most part stayed true to the book (no chain). Tyrion and Stannis were equally bad-ass. I also liked Hardhome. Besides the running wights((can't remember if they run in book)) and the fact they no longer needed fire to be killed it was a good fight with Jon's fight being the best aspect of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 14 minutes ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said: Someone told DnD that politics is boring.. except it is the main basis for the entire show. I mean I can't remember exactly but the cloak and dagger political moves and surprises across the board out weigh the epic battle scenes. Yet we've moved past them for some reason. There is no build up to anything anymore. It's just do-do-do-do-do. Like why say Varys is going on a secret mission? Have him just say goodbye to Tyrion randomly and have fans going.. wait what is going on? Well, it's pretty much all d$d know how to do, doo doo piled upon more doo doo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Syv Aldlark Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Darkstream said: Well, it's pretty much all d$d know how to do, doo doo piled upon more doo doo. Nicely done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Redwyne Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I wonder does Tyrion still remember than he killed his own father? I guess not. That would be bad for image of saint tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory Snow Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Lord Syv Aldlark said: Someone told DnD that politics is boring.. except it is the main basis for the entire show. I mean I can't remember exactly but the cloak and dagger political moves and surprises across the board out weigh the epic battle scenes. Yet we've moved past them for some reason. There is no build up to anything anymore. It's just do-do-do-do-do. You're right, when the build up is done right the end result is so much more satisfying. One of, if not the, major reasons Jon's epic pounding of Ramsay was so cathartic is that Ramsay's villainy had been built so well, brick by brick, evil deed by evil deed, over a period of time. When properly constructed, the result is fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeCameFromNorth Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/23/2016 at 5:46 AM, Lord Syv Aldlark said: It's another piece of bad plot design and writing. It 1. Makes both Sansa and Jon come across as dolts, maybe just Jon since Sansa may be evil now. 2. Jon's new life and Sansas situation should have been enough to make him want to retake winterfell. 3. It killed Rickon because Got so edgy kill everyone, even though his death had no emotional impact.. my wife literally asked me who the heck it was. Jon didn't get played because he charged emotionally after his brother died feet from being safe. Jon got played because DnD have forgotten how politics in a feudal society play out, or never cared to begin with. This. Thank you. There are many reasons that pieces have been set in this way, but Jon’s or even Sansa’s personal qualities or flaws weren’t between those reasons. I would defend Jon’s charge for his brother’s life till my death, but there aren’t so many elements in building whole this situation up that hold water, if there are any at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 19 minutes ago, Rory Snow said: You're right, when the build up is done right the end result is so much more satisfying. One of, if not the, major reasons Jon's epic pounding of Ramsay was so cathartic is that Ramsay's villainy had been built so well, brick by brick, evil deed by evil deed, over a period of time. When properly constructed, the result is fantastic. His villainy was so annoyingly over the top, with him never suffering any logical consequences from his villainous actions, I don't know how anyone got any sort of payoff from this storyline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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