Varys????

[Alan of Rosby]

2 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

but in the last scene where Dany is sailing to westeros there are ships with her three headed dragon, ships with the Greyjoy kracken and ships with the sun and spear of martell so, apparently, the dornish navy (ugh) sailed to Meeren to rendezvous with dany so they could all go to westeros together.

That's a trip and a half. Slaver's bay to Dorne and back again? Is he mad?

And yeah, as someone else in this thread mentioned, he was just hanging behind the curtain in Dorne for dramatic effect? One of the sisters rings the bell and out he comes. "TA DA OLENNA, YOUR FAVOURITE EUNUCH IS HERE!". What the hell are they playing at? There's a war being fought, there's no time for am-dram antics.

[UnGregor]

I agree with most of the threads in this post.  I really think we need the following:

1.  Are you trying to tell me, since the last episode a week ago, Jon and Sansa were able to clean up all of the bodies from the battle and return Winterfell to a functioning keep.  Not only that, we didn't get to see the time spent sending ravens to the Manderlays, Glovers, and other houses.  I want a couple episodes documenting those houses travelling to Winterfell.

2.  Where area my episodes showing Arya on a boat.  Doing nothing other than sitting on a boat.  The upon reaching Westeros, I want episodes documenting he travels.

3.  Along with #2, where were all of the episodes showing Jamie travelling from Riverrun to the Freys?  Poof...just magically there.  That then follows up with no episodes showing him travelling to King's Landing.

4.  And those birds from the Citadel.  Warp speed Captain.  That bird arrived in Winterfell within a matter of minutes.  Plus, I never got to see anyone reading the message attached to the bird.  It isn't confirmed that what the note said.  We only have some word of mouth.

5.  Did you realize how quickly Cersi blew up the building and in 90 minutes she was crowned the queen.  How on earth did she ever organize all of those people that quickly to fill up the throne room, they must have been in on the plot.

6.  Also, I never realized that Pycelle's chambers where that close to Qyburns laboratory.  I mean it appeard that they are right down the hall from each other.

7.  Just a couple of episodes ago, Olenna was leaving King's Landing for Highgarden.  Nexty thing I know, she is in Dorne.  To make the change that quickly, she must have know that Cersi was going to blow it up and went seeking allies immediately.

Seriously people, do you need mundane scenes showing people traveling?

Here are my two legitimate timeline/knowledge issues:

A. Jamie being surprised at the destruction and not hearing that the king is dead.  Word would have spread even on the road while he was traveling.

B. The Citadel not knowing that Jon was the Nitgh's Watch commander.  Word spread to other locations about this.  Given the time that it took Sam to travel to there, word should have arrived.

[YOVMO]

Just now, Alan of Rosby said:

That's a trip and a half. Slaver's bay to Dorne and back again? Is he mad?

And yeah, as someone else in this thread mentioned, he was just hanging behind the curtain in Dorne for dramatic effect? One of the sisters rings the bell and out he comes. "TA DA OLENNA, YOUR FAVOURITE EUNUCH IS HERE!". What the hell are they playing at? There's a war being fought, there's no time for am-dram antics.

The funny thing is that the bar was set so low with Dany literally falling out of the sky into a bull sesh --- literally falling out of the sky --- only to realize that an entire armada had snuck up on a city close enough to start laying siege to it (again, on a list of the 5 things you are least likely to get snuck up on by armada has to be at least top 3)....so when Varys comes out from hiding behind the curtains after what was, presumably, a 12 minute sea voyage which took him pretty much half way around the world it is only slightly unreal.

 

Game of Groans.

[Rory Snow]

3 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

Right? That's my thing like on top of how jarring it was, there wasn't a reason. We can establish alliances in much more satisfying ways, and there's no reason the fleet would have sailed to Mereen just to sail back again. 

The only possible justification I can come up with is perhaps Dany needed more ships in order to transport everyone, Unsullied, Dothraki, their horses. Otherwise, you're right, sailing back and forth is just foolish 

[Olorin81]

You know what's funny. Varys can get from Dorne back to Dany within a single episode. But The Maesters in oldtown haven't heard that Jeor Mormont had been killed and Jon Snow was made Lord Commander, and how long ago did all that happen? Yet Tyrion apparently had heard of Mormont's demise since he was able to blab about it to Jorah.

[jbob]

As I asked in another thread. Explain to me how many hours, days, weeks, months, are supposed to take place between episodes and scenes? Show me this rule, I challenge you.

Those scenes clearly take place weeks or months after the other seen. Do you need a timestamp or something? And book readers like to act as if they're somehow smarter than tv watchers (cause they read books, see). Yet need someone point something obvious as time change. You must of been shocked when Jon suddlen went from being a baby to and adult in a span of an edit.

[Tianzi]

If we were to believe that several months passed between any of their teleport bullshit, Gilly's baby would be 15 years old now.

[Alan of Rosby]

4 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

The only possible justification I can come up with is perhaps Dany needed more ships in order to transport everyone, Unsullied, Dothraki, their horses. Otherwise, you're right, sailing back and forth is just foolish 

Dany never indicated before this that there was a desperate need for more boats. If that's the excuse they give in Season 7 that will be aggravating, a blatant post-hoc rationalization for piss-poor writing (pardon my French).

 

[KrakenSlayer]

Oh come on, the problem is not the writers/directors skipping out on travel times, it is the inconsistency with which it happens. The Fire in King's Landing is still going on as Jamie steps in to witness Cersei getting crowned. He must have taken the motorway. 

Quote

 

 

[Masha]

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

If we were to believe that several months passed between any of their teleport bullshit, Gilly's baby would be 15 years old now.

Because different storylines (aka TV versions of POVs), take place with different timelines. Arya timeline is different from Sansa, Varys timeline is different from Jaime's. And then they are put together in an episode. They never imply that all stories taking place in space of 1 episode move at same rate.

24 minutes ago, Alan of Rosby said:

Dany never indicated before this that there was a desperate need for more boats. If that's the excuse they give in Season 7 that will be aggravating, a blatant post-hoc rationalization for piss-poor writing (pardon my French).

 

It was. Again different timelines. When Varys left - Dany still wasn't in Maureen, Wise Masters were not attacking, and Theon and Yara certainly didn't show up with their ships, the only thing he knew that Dany needed ships to get to Westeros since Sons of the Harpy burned down the remaining ships in first or second episode of the season. So, Varys left to get alliance PLUS ships

[Alan of Rosby]

29 minutes ago, Masha said:

 

 

 

Because different storylines (aka TV versions of POVs), take place with different timelines. Arya timeline is different from Sansa, Varys timeline is different from Jaime's. And then they are put together in an episode. They never imply that all stories taking place in space of 1 episode move at same rate.

It was. Again different timelines. When Varys left - Dany still wasn't in Maureen, Wise Masters were not attacking, and Theon and Yara certainly didn't show up with their ships, the only thing he knew that Dany needed ships to get to Westeros since Sons of the Harpy burned down the remaining ships in first or second episode of the season. So, Varys left to get alliance PLUS ships

Something doesn't add up.

• Dany left Meereen apparently before Varys returned from his journey (she didn't say he was back), so they had to meet up in the middle of the Narrow Sea. So presumably she had all her forces on ships at that time.
• Varys meets up with Dany (a meeting point arranged no doubt via raven) and tells her he got the Alliance AND ships.
• Dany looks at him like he's an idiot and says she already has ships, how the hell did she manage to get everyone to this point in the first place.
• Varys looks at her like she's an idiot and says well how come you didn't tell me about this earlier via raven. Dany and Varys look at the ground and shuffle their feet and realize they've wasted countless months. Varys could have been in Dorne organizing the land army with the Martell sisters for a attack on King's Landing from the South. Dany could have had her fleet attacking from the East

Even if Varys was back that quickly, surely he would have been keeping Dany abreast of the situation regularly throughout his mission, it would have taken months maybe, ample time for multiple raven telegrams (ravenagrams?)

[Masha]

33 minutes ago, Alan of Rosby said:

Something doesn't add up.

• Dany left Meereen apparently before Varys returned from his journey (she didn't say he was back), so they had to meet up in the middle of the Narrow Sea. So presumably she had all her forces on ships at that time.
• Varys meets up with Dany (a meeting point arranged no doubt via raven) and tells her he got the Alliance AND ships.
• Dany looks at him like he's an idiot and says she already has ships, how the hell did she manage to get everyone to this point in the first place.
• Varys looks at her like she's an idiot and says well how come you didn't tell me about this earlier via raven. Dany and Varys look at the ground and shuffle their feet and realize they've wasted countless months. Varys could have been in Dorne organizing the land army with the Martell sisters for a attack on King's Landing from the South. Dany could have had her fleet attacking from the East

Even if Varys was back that quickly, surely he would have been keeping Dany abreast of the situation regularly throughout his mission, it would have taken months maybe, ample time for multiple raven telegrams (ravenagrams?)

1) When Dany and Tyrion were talking, they mentioned about ships being refitted, so it might have taken some time - a month at least to finish, plenty of time for Varys to come back with a fleet.

2) As the other ships get refitted, Varys comes back with additional ships.

3) Even with 100 Greyjoy ships, counting Wise Masters fleet, Tyrion mentioned that it was going to be Extremely tight fit, if that. Those ships, that Varys brought would give that additional space and make it a better fit especially for Dothraki and their Horses. 

4) You assume there was that much traffic between Westeros and Slavers Bay, I am pretty sure that as Greyjoy fleet was sailing and Wise Masters were attacking, all other ships that could have carried messages were avoiding that route between Westeros and Slavers Bay. '

5) If I were to guess about timelines it would be thus:

   i) Varys departs - Dany is missing, ships in Maureen are burned but temp peace is restored.  

  ii) during his trip and negotiates with Dorne: Maureen is attacked and defended, Greyjoys arrive, KL burns.

  iii) Greyjoys start refitting ships for horses and men (probably will need to redo Wise Masters fleet as well), so it takes at least a month probably 2 to 3

  iii) Varys/Dorne hear news about Tyrells and KL, they call on QoT, she arrives, negotiates, Gathers a fleet,  takes them a month to do so

iv) Varys arrives from Dorne with a fleet as Dany's fleet finishes refitting.

[UnGregor]

2 hours ago, KrakenSlayer said:

Oh come on, the problem is not the writers/directors skipping out on travel times, it is the inconsistency with which it happens. The Fire in King's Landing is still going on as Jamie steps in to witness Cersei getting crowned. He must have taken the motorway. 

 

Regarding the "fire still happening", I took that scene and Jamie's point of view as King's Landing was still smoldering.  I thought the smoke was different color/density in Jamie's scene.  Much like the World Trade Center smoldered for more than the initial collapse.

[John Suburbs]

It must have taken a helluva long time to make all those dragon sales, dragon prows and all the other preps for the journey. But I also agree that the Varys-in-Dorne scene should have been pushed up to Ep 9 or 8. Time is writing and writing is time, and it throws off the viewer's time perspective greatly with him being worlds apart within minutes of show-time.

And why bother having him there at all? The scene would have worked just fine without him, and everyone would be in Dorne together in Ep 1 next season anyway.

[Nugget1229]

3 hours ago, KrakenSlayer said:

Oh come on, the problem is not the writers/directors skipping out on travel times, it is the inconsistency with which it happens. The Fire in King's Landing is still going on as Jamie steps in to witness Cersei getting crowned. He must have taken the motorway. 

 

Wildfire can not be extinguished; it needs to burn itself out and it had plenty of fuel.

[Forlong the Fat]

15 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Obviously, but it still looked bad the way it was shown. Couldn't they have shown Varys actually return, and inform Dany that he secured alliances with Dorne and Olenna?

Also, doesn't anyone other than Tywin poop on this show?  It would look much better if they showed more people pooping.

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

If we were to believe that several months passed between any of their teleport bullshit, Gilly's baby would be 15 years old now.

This is the thing that bothers me.  While not every scene and character arc is linked together, there are enough points that link together for us to form a timeline.  Post Red wedding LF went from Kings Landing, to the Vale where he spent enough time to take control, then rode to Winterfell spent some time there, back to Kings Landing where he spent some time, back to the Vale, raised an army, then rode Moat Cailin where he left his army, rode to Moles Town, then back to Moat Cailin, then back to Winterfell.  That's closing in on 10k miles on foot, plus all the time it takes to gather an army, also considering they have to cross the highest mountains in Westeros and the swamp that is the Neck.  Your literally talking about 2 years of travel time, yet in Kings Landing almost nothing should take more than a couple of weeks, yet we know Jaime's trip to the Riverlands coincides with Briennes + that Arya made it back before Jaime even got to the Twins.

[Alan of Rosby]

2 hours ago, Masha said:

1) When Dany and Tyrion were talking, they mentioned about ships being refitted, so it might have taken some time - a month at least to finish, plenty of time for Varys to come back with a fleet.

2) As the other ships get refitted, Varys comes back with additional ships.

3) Even with 100 Greyjoy ships, counting Wise Masters fleet, Tyrion mentioned that it was going to be Extremely tight fit, if that. Those ships, that Varys brought would give that additional space and make it a better fit especially for Dothraki and their Horses. 

4) You assume there was that much traffic between Westeros and Slavers Bay, I am pretty sure that as Greyjoy fleet was sailing and Wise Masters were attacking, all other ships that could have carried messages were avoiding that route between Westeros and Slavers Bay. '

5) If I were to guess about timelines it would be thus:

   i) Varys departs - Dany is missing, ships in Maureen are burned but temp peace is restored.  

  ii) during his trip and negotiates with Dorne: Maureen is attacked and defended, Greyjoys arrive, KL burns.

  iii) Greyjoys start refitting ships for horses and men (probably will need to redo Wise Masters fleet as well), so it takes at least a month probably 2 to 3

  iii) Varys/Dorne hear news about Tyrells and KL, they call on QoT, she arrives, negotiates, Gathers a fleet,  takes them a month to do so

iv) Varys arrives from Dorne with a fleet as Dany's fleet finishes refitting.

Eh I suppose I can buy it but at the end of the day we are the ones who are taking great pains to fill in the gaps that the writers could easily have done themselves. How hard would it have been to have Tyrion or Dany at least mention that Varys has got the ships and the Alliance from Meereen (or I sure hope he has) and he'll arrive in a month or so. In an offhand, subtle way, like in a conversation about how long the fitting is taking and it's taking a while but that's fine because Varys will take a month to get back? Or maybe show, not tell, you don't have to do a clumsy Basil Exposition on it. Show Varys on a boat with a telescope and a sailor shouting LAND HO,maybe

In any case, all it would take is a few seconds of screen time and it would be worth it because the viewer's suspension of disbelief is destroyed if the characters are apparently flitting all over the globe in a manner of seconds without any indication that they've been travelling for months, it's jarring and suggests laziness or clumsiness by the writers. It's not inconsistent, it just looks really bad. Sam's arc is okay because he doesn't cross over with any of the other characters that we know, but they went to the trouble of showing Varys on the boat for the cool trio looking at the horizon shot.

 

 

[OrcusOfUndeath]

6 hours ago, Joe Pesci said:

Delaying Dany getting to Westeros for several episodes just to give Varys time to get back to Meereen? With only 14 (possibly) episodes left, there is just no time for anything like this, which is probably why Varys was on the ship. Could they have just left him in Dorne? Sure, but it gives the viewers a visual confirmation that Dorne and Highgarden are now committed allies with Dany. Also, Varys told Tyrion that if he found allies in Westeros that he would return. I'm sure if the ships of Dorne and Highgarden just appeared without Varys, it would get nitpicked to death about it being some huge plot hole. He showed up like he said he would, with allies. 

IMO they should be doing three seasons if they can't make 10 episodes per season anymore. You can tell they are rushing things along.

[Jarl Halstein]

12 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Won't even go into the fact that Dorne has't had a Navy in hundreds of years.

 

Or the fact that Slaver's Bay was the last place you'd want to sail if you were a Dany supporter, since it would have Yunkai ships and the ships of their allies - several cities buy from Slaver's Bay - looking for rebel upstarts. I've never pegged Varys for much of a daredevil sailor, or for someone who likes long journeys with ship fare and rolling decks, so I suspect he'd prefer to stay in Dorne.

Especially after hearing how Tyrion and Mormont were captured by slavers in those waters.