Ser Yorick Ampersand Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 11 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said: And he didn't even pay her. That will teach her a lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 43 minutes ago, Terekhov said: Better question - why in the world *wouldn't* you murder Pycelle? Exactly. Can we close this thread now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 18 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: I haven't seen the blueprints so maybe there is just one tunnel and maybe the kid had to go there to actually check the candles or even lit them. Anyway, it's just a kid and you can't expect him to think through all the possibilities. He might not have even been completely aware of what was going on or how much was at stake. He probably just had a simple task that he was following. Maybe the kid simply didn't expect that Lancel would manage (or be willing) to follow him that far into the tunnels. IIRC, he lingered a little bit after stabbing Lancel into the spine, and only once Lancel seemed to be incapacitated did he ran away. It is possible that the kid lured him there too, though I think it's less likely. Maybe Cersei or Qyburn foresaw that the HS might send someone after the Queen and the kid (or kids) had instructions to distract anyone who leaves the sept and keep them on the premises. What you say is possible. Sure. But if that is the case it is super sloppy writing where a much cleaner and more elegant solution could have presented itself, taken a lot less time and made a lot more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, YOVMO said: What you say is possible. Sure. But if that is the case it is super sloppy writing where a much cleaner and more elegant solution could have presented itself, taken a lot less time and made a lot more sense. I don't know. I thought that the scene was amazing and tense and I haven't seen very many people (well actually only you) complain about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 A better question is why Pycelle wasn't in the Sept. He was the Grand Maester. He was a member of the Small Council. Yet he wasn't in the Sept where the Queen Mother and the brother of the Queen were supposed to be judged. That doesn't make much sense to me. It's possible that the whore was maybe payed to slow him down, although a more probable thing to work would be call him to take care of a sick person. Or maybe he was expected to be in the Sept with the rest but when it was reported that he didn't left the Keep and there was no way that he would get there in time, Cersei and Qyburn came in haste with the plan of little birds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Just now, Hangover of the Morning said: I don't know. I thought that the scene was amazing and tense and I haven't seen very many people (well actually only you) complain about it. The filming was inspired. The sets and production value and acting all of it was brilliant. I can't possibly complain. It is just the lazy and arrogant writing that bothers me. It was fun to watch. It was colorful and I have always thought the guy who plays lancel is a great actor and the little kid was done up perfectly and as always the scene was framed beautifully. However, and I guess this is my fault, Game of Thrones set expectations high at first. It gave me, as a viewer, an expectation that it was more than flashy CGI and good costumes but that there was a story with characters that mattered, plot arcs that were interesting and fit into a consistent internal logic. Now that it is just tits, dragons, explosions, girl power and catch phrases it is basically just professional wrestling with better production values and that is kind of depressing to me. Nothing about Lancel randomly running away from his command while waiting for his people to form up to go get Cersei from the red keep running down a homeless kid who happened to look at him funny and then the kid running around the maze of tunnels under kings landing and leading him to ground zero makes any sense. Yes, it was pretty. Yes it was cool. But no, there is absolutely no story of interest. It is, frankly, depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 minute ago, Nerevanin said: A better question is why Pycelle wasn't in the Sept. He was the Grand Maester. He was a member of the Small Council. Yet he wasn't in the Sept where the Queen Mother and the brother of the Queen were supposed to be judged. That doesn't make much sense to me. It's possible that the whore was maybe payed to slow him down, although a more probable thing to work would be call him to take care of a sick person. Or maybe he was expected to be in the Sept with the rest but when it was reported that he didn't left the Keep and there was no way that he would get there in time, Cersei and Qyburn came in haste with the plan of little birds? I suspect he was supposed to travel there with Tommen and Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: I suspect he was supposed to travel there with Tommen and Cersei. Um... maybe. But I'd say that it is a rather unusual way for someone to buy a whore in order to avoid boredom while waiting for the Queen and the King. And if we are supposed to believe that the events before the explosion were happening simoultaneously, at the time he was with the whore, he, Tommen and Cersei were already supposed to be on their way to the Sept. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Nerevanin said: Um... maybe. But I'd say that it is a rather unusual way for someone to buy a whore in order to avoid boredom while waiting for the Queen and the King. And if we are supposed to believe that the events before the explosion were happening simoultaneously, at the time he was with the whore, he, Tommen and Cersei were already supposed to be on their way to the Sept. I think. Fair point. Maybe Pycelle excused himself from the trial on the basis of his frail health. It looked like it was going to take hours and the HS didn't provide any chairs for the audience. It's probably customary for him to be present but the only people who could force him to go were Tommen or Kevan and neither probably felt the need to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I think this was just a shout-out to the books honestly. It happened again in this episode with the Arya "Frey Pie" scene. They wanted to do a reference to popular and cool book events but the characters and plots surrounding and leading up to those events were changed significantly. So you sort of get this awkward fit that maybe doesn't hold up to a high level of scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 22 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Nothing about Lancel randomly running away from his command while waiting for his people to form up to go get Cersei from the red keep running down a homeless kid who happened to look at him funny and then the kid running around the maze of tunnels under kings landing and leading him to ground zero makes any sense. Yes, it was pretty. Yes it was cool. But no, there is absolutely no story of interest. It is, frankly, depressing. I agree. I don't get if Lancel was supposed to be lured down there by the kid, or if no one was supposed to follow the kid. If the was the first one, Cersei's got immensely lucky that it worked because I, just like you, don't see any reason for which someone should start following a child while he is to go to the Queen. If it was just an accident, then it's bad luck. As you say, it was very effective that Lancel crawled to the candles, then he realized what it was and tried to make it there in time to blow them out and he failed. I'd say that a good explanation is this: the kid was supposed to check if everyone's inside or something like that. Then it ran to light the candles or to check if they still burn. Unfortunately, Lancel followed him. The instinct of the child was to stab him. The boy then checked if Lancel looked dead enough and when he decided that Lancel would not live for long, he ran. The boy probably didn't dare to come closer to Lancel to give him a final stab and probably didn't even think about the possibility that Lancel could get to the candles. The child probably didn't even know what were the candles for. That seems like an okay explanation to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 28 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: I suspect he was supposed to travel there with Tommen and Cersei. Yep. This makes the most sense and explains why he had to be killed separately since Cersei and Tommen were never actually going to go the Sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leofric Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I initially thought Cersei was luring and killing Lancel and Pyrcelle away to kill them as they were the primary witnesses against her in her trial. But when Tommen was kept from leaving his room by the Mountain I I knew everyone in the Sept was doomed. So at that point I assumed Pyrcelle was supposed to escort the King to the Sept, so if the King was kept from going, Pyrcelle needed to be shut up before he could raise any kind of alarm or protest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said: Fair point. Maybe Pycelle excused himself from the trial on the basis of his frail health. It looked like it was going to take hours and the HS didn't provide any chairs for the audience. It's probably customary for him to be present but the only people who could force him to go were Tommen or Kevan and neither probably felt the need to do so. Um... yeah. That's possible, although it never seemed to me before that Pycelle was keen on not being present anywhere where it was getting interesting and made excuses like that. And a trial like this one was probably going to be huge event that would go down to history. If you remember the scene from season... 2, I think?, when he was doing some kind of exercice, it was clear that he fakes his poor and fragile health. But of course several years passed between season 2 and season 6, and Pycelle wasn't among the youngest. So I'd say that it is possible that Pycelle checked in advance if there were chairs for the audience or not, and depending on the existence of chairs, his health may or may not have rapidly changed, but I am not entirely convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 5 minutes ago, Nerevanin said: I agree. I don't get if Lancel was supposed to be lured down there by the kid, or if no one was supposed to follow the kid. If the was the first one, Cersei's got immensely lucky that it worked because I, just like you, don't see any reason for which someone should start following a child while he is to go to the Queen. If it was just an accident, then it's bad luck. As you say, it was very effective that Lancel crawled to the candles, then he realized what it was and tried to make it there in time to blow them out and he failed. I'd say that a good explanation is this: the kid was supposed to check if everyone's inside or something like that. Then it ran to light the candles or to check if they still burn. Unfortunately, Lancel followed him. The instinct of the child was to stab him. The boy then checked if Lancel looked dead enough and when he decided that Lancel would not live for long, he ran. The boy probably didn't dare to come closer to Lancel to give him a final stab and probably didn't even think about the possibility that Lancel could get to the candles. The child probably didn't even know what were the candles for. That seems like an okay explanation to me. Your explanation is fine by me too. But here is the problem: how did that five minutes add to this story? I mean, your explaination is the cleanest most logical and most plausible one I have heard and that is a lot of shoe horning just to get to show the wildfire cache...something that could have pretty easily been done 100 different ways, wouldn't have required such a sloppy bit of story telling and opened more space to put something that might actually be interesting into the story (like explaining how dany learns how to control dragons? like explaining where arya is getting faces? like explaining who the hell Manderly is (if we are to take the books and shows as separate universes then he makes no freaking sense) like investing 5 freaking minutes into making Tyrion a not one dimensional character. Yes, I can see your explaination being fine....but in the end it is just garbage writing which is a pity considering all the advantages the writers have to work with. Talk about snatching defeat from the hands of victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Because Benioff and Weiss need a lot of meaningless shocking violent garbage to fill up their one hour allotment in a way that satisfies their target audience and they thought a bunch of children murdering an old man was liek totally awsum bro. But by all means tell yourself there was any reason at all not just to have him be in the Sept with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, YOVMO said: Your explanation is fine by me too. But here is the problem: how did that five minutes add to this story? I mean, your explaination is the cleanest most logical and most plausible one I have heard and that is a lot of shoe horning just to get to show the wildfire cache...something that could have pretty easily been done 100 different ways, wouldn't have required such a sloppy bit of story telling and opened more space to put something that might actually be interesting into the story (like explaining how dany learns how to control dragons? like explaining where arya is getting faces? like explaining who the hell Manderly is (if we are to take the books and shows as separate universes then he makes no freaking sense) like investing 5 freaking minutes into making Tyrion a not one dimensional character. Yes, I can see your explaination being fine....but in the end it is just garbage writing which is a pity considering all the advantages the writers have to work with. Talk about snatching defeat from the hands of victory. I actually don't mind that some time was spent on Lancel in the dungeon. If we overlook the certain "isn't it weird how he got there?", I think it was a nice think to...um... explain the explosion. Because if there wasn't Lancel who saw the candles in the wildfire, there would be just an explosion and everybody would be like "Who? How? Where? When? What?". So it's fine by me. I just came to another "problem" though. They were lucky as hell that the candles burned the way they did because whenever I light a candle and let it burn as long as it can, the fire always eventually drowns in the wax. So... lucky you, Cersei! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 It´s hilarious that people can´t find the reasons so they just shut their eyes and start screaming "bad writing, bad writing" and really think they have any sort of merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 6 minutes ago, NutBurz said: It´s hilarious that people can´t find the reasons so they just shut their eyes and start screaming "bad writing, bad writing" and really think they have any sort of merit. Isn't that the truth? Not to say there haven't been some cases of that; there have. But the constant refrain by those of little imagination is ridiculous. But it is easier to ignore them than to ridicule them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hol Horse Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 How else were they gonna show off Qyburn's school of child assassins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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