Who can Dany marry in Westeros?

[lojzelote]

13 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It's incest. of course it's better than Jaime and Cersei but still their child got pretty decent chance to turn out mad. From what I know Aerys was  going crazy over the time. Look at Viserys. He wasn't held anywhere and yet he was on the run to being Aerys worthy succesor in termsof being mad .

Aerion Brightflame was one of the most genetically diverse Targaryens to ever be born (his mother was a Dayne, his grandmother a Martell), but he's the guy who drank wildfire to change into a dragon. But from the same genetic mix came out Aegon the Unlikely and Maester Aemon, and also their less admirable, but nice brother Daeron the Drunken.

OTOH Aegon III and Viserys II came from a long line of incestous marriages - their parents were uncle and niece (Daemon and Rhaenyra), their maternal grandparents first cousins (Viserys I and Aemma Arryn), their paternal grandparents and maternal great-grandparents were the same brother/sister pair (Prince Baelon the Brave and Princess Alyssa), and their paternal great-grandparents and maternal great-great-grandparents were another brother/sister pair, King Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne. In spite of this, both brothers turned out to be decent and responsible kings, although not very popular due to their morose, introverted nature caused by traumatic events from their childhood and youth.

It was the sons they had by women not closely related to them, Daenaera Velaryon and Larra Rogarre of Lys, that caused Westeros great problems, particularly Larra's son Aegon the Unworthy.

Of course then you get the Mad King, but Aerys II was in fact the product of only one generation of brother/sister incest that followed three generations of outmarriage with a Blackwood, a Dayne, and a Martell. Besides, from what we have learnt of his early rule in TWoIaF, the incident in Duskendale seems to be the main cause of his madness.

It's not all so clear-cut as people would like to believe. Jon and Dany marrying other people doesn't in any way guarantee their heirs will be free of mental issues, nor would their marriage to each other guarantee their descendants would have to suffer from mental issues. The likelihood may be higher in such a case, yes, but that's it.

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

what is the meaning of this?  No longer do we post.... jut parrot a blank line?

There's a bug in the posting software.

[CrypticWeirwood]

You guys are all forgetting that not only was the medieval infant mortality rate between 30–50%, that the lifetime chance of a woman dying in childbirth was over 33%.

You don’t need to bring in anything else to account for the numbers we see in Westeros.

That said, Rhaelle’s 70% failure rate is to be expected for any children of Aerys, in that we would expect 70% of them to have physical or mental defects.

But the madness? There are plenty of other possible causes.  And extreme behavior does not mean psychotic crazies people.

Duskendale would have permanently freaked out anybody, not just Aerys. As for Viserys, he wasn’t crazy. He just wasn’t a good person, nor a smart one. This is true of most of the people we see bad stories grow up around.  One thing Martin is trying to show is that even good people can sometimes do terrible things during terrible times, and those less than good even more so.

[House_Tony_Stark]

Incest does not make you crazy, the only real problem with incest are the genetic problems that can come with it if you are involved with your siblings/first cousins. It's really just a crazy superstition that society has made bad out of ignorance. Just like prostitution, a guy can buy a girl drinks, pay for her to eat at an expensive restaurant with a specific goal in mind that's apparent to both people. But if that same guy were to just get straight to the point and say hey here is $100 dollars it's against the law.

But not getting too deep into that conversation.....They began to take this route because they have a very special bloodline. And with no Valryians to marry with marrying normal men would caused them to lost their abilities (like House Baratheon).

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 hour ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Incest does not make you crazy, the only real problem with incest are the genetic problems that can come with it if you are involved with your siblings/first cousins.

Compared with a 3% genetic risk between unrelated individuals, the genetic risk with first cousins is only around 5%, whereas with sibling it is around 50%. Those don’t belong to be lumped together by saying "your siblings/first cousins". The risk is 10 times worse with siblings.

Around 20% of the world's population is the product of cousin marriage. It simply isn't that bad — at all.

[CrypticWeirwood]

We now know that everyone with blue eyes — really, everyone who doesn't have brown eyes — is descended from the same original individual in which that specific mutation occurred.

And yet we do not require people who lack brown eyes to marry only people who do have brown eyes.

[lakin1013]

A friend and I recently found ourselves having this exact conversation: two women discussing whether Jon Snow should marry his cousin, Sansa, or his aunt, Dany.  We both laughed when we realized we were actually evaluating levels of incest, from a 2016 perspective, and regarding fictional characters LOL  Considering only those two choices, if anyone cares, we came down on the side of cousin incest.  
Personally, I want episode 1 next season to introduce Val.  

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

At this point I hope Jon will die without any other love interest.... Lol it's much simple that way.

[Iron Mother]

3 hours ago, House_Tony_Stark said:

Incest does not make you crazy, the only real problem with incest are the genetic problems that can come with it if you are involved with your siblings/first cousins. It's really just a crazy superstition that society has made bad out of ignorance. Just like prostitution, a guy can buy a girl drinks, pay for her to eat at an expensive restaurant with a specific goal in mind that's apparent to both people. But if that same guy were to just get straight to the point and say hey here is $100 dollars it's against the law.

But not getting too deep into that conversation.....They began to take this route because they have a very special bloodline. And with no Valryians to marry with marrying normal men would caused them to lost their abilities (like House Baratheon).

What abilities?  From what I read, House Baratheon is basically an offshoot of Targaryen blood..... but of what powers do you speak?

The more I thought of this, Noah in egypto-judaic mythos rebuilt the whole human race from 8 people.  It doesn't even fit with the numeric model of The Matrix and Zion as for how many human males and human females would be required to succcessfully rebuild a population from decimation.

OK so I just linked Noah to Neo ... but I figure MACHINES / A.I. would know better than anyone how many people would be needed to do it.

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

At this point I hope Jon will die without any other love interest.... Lol it's much simple that way.

oh nnnno nnno nno no no.......... Lyanna's bloodbed all but secured this now.  Jon Snow has become even more transformed than a smart intelligent zombie brought from death.  Why is no one talking about THAT?  I really wanna know what happened with that, why, who, and what it's for, what it means, etc

Books can go sideways and make it still interesting.  With TV viewership equivalent to soap opera brunts,  there's protocol.

Jonrysys Must die and live some more, kind of like Luke's quest to get with the Force.  And just before he is ready, 

[Vhaegon Targaryen I]

Well I would guess Jon as well but then again, that is to happy and it doesn't suit ASOIAF. GRRM has stated that his ending will be bittersweet. I'm personally hoping for a Dany and Tyrion or Dany and Jamie

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

A happy marriage with no kids? Bittersweet enough for you?

[nothatso]

3 hours ago, Vhaegon Targaryen I said:

Well I would guess Jon as well but then again, that is to happy and it doesn't suit ASOIAF. GRRM has stated that his ending will be bittersweet. I'm personally hoping for a Dany and Tyrion or Dany and Jamie

He's also said that in the same breath that he praised the "bittersweet ending" of The Lord of the Rings, which was mostly bitter for the smallfolk and mostly sweet for the main characters. Not to say his ending will be exactly the same, but people read way too much into the "bittersweet" thing. They also tend to look at things in a bubble. For example, if every other character in this story died horrifically, but Jon and Dany got married, is that still too happy and not bittersweet enough?

As I think has been discussed previously in this thread, there are also other factors that work against the notion of this idea being cliche or inherently happy, such as the fact that it's incest or that political marriages are not usually initiated by romance. So there is no guarantee of love ever entering the relationship. Or of them having children. Or of them both surviving. Etc.

[Iron Mother]

38 minutes ago, nothatso said:

He's also said that in the same breath that he praised the "bittersweet ending" of The Lord of the Rings, which was mostly bitter for the smallfolk and mostly sweet for the main characters. Not to say his ending will be exactly the same, but people read way too much into the "bittersweet" thing. They also tend to look at things in a bubble. For example, if every other character in this story died horrifically, but Jon and Dany got married, is that still too happy and not bittersweet enough?

As I think has been discussed previously in this thread, there are also other factors that work against the notion of this idea being cliche or inherently happy, such as the fact that it's incest or that political marriages are not usually initiated by romance. So there is no guarantee of love ever entering the relationship. Or of them having children. Or of them both surviving. Etc.

Most of the time it was not apparent or a constant rag that the Lannister children came from the same womb of incest, so it's forgettable.  The cracks  about it were most made by people trying to insult Cercei or Jaime... and ultimately neither of them cared because they loved each other.  I'm sorry, I can overlook it.  I KNOW some you at least women were having a moment when Myrcella recognizes Jaime as her dad and then died.

I think people are making way too much out of it.  Cersei said to the repugnant Septa that she enjoyed lying about her children because it kept them safe from hateful hypocrites.  Cersei is vile, yes, but still my hero for how she played her hand in the final episode.... I have some regard for Jaime but not that much.  It's hard for me to believe some are wanting a Dany/Jamie union.  Would Daenerys Stormborne, Mother of Dragons, Chain-Breaker, Unburnt of the Great Grass Sea... would she want a guy with stumped hand/arm?  She barely allowed Dhario into her bed and he was a complete warrior and kind of sexy.  I look at Dhario and he reminds a lot of Jon.And since she is leaving him behind......... what about some drama involving Jon and Dhario at some point?  Dhario would win I think, possibly killing Dany's love/family member and going all Dracaris on him.

Bittersweet that her love, Jon dies but is raised up again.... i mean, for the Woman with so many names, that would be kind of impressive and would cause her to run to him even faster.

[Chib]

My expectation:

1) Jon will die, Dany will live and rule for years before dying as the last of Targ. In the end she still could not find home. The house with red door and lemon tree will always be in her dream.  Another war coming but on her death bed she does not care. 

2) Dany will die, Jon will live and feel dreadful because he does not like being a ruler and he feels hopeless with politics. 

3) Dany will die, Jon will die. Someone like Tyrion or Sansa will sit on the throne.

4) Dany will live but she will not get the throne, she will come back to Meeren. Jon will live but he will not rule. He will marry a wildling girl and have a true family on his own. Tyrion or Sansa or someone else will get the throne. 

5) Dany and Jon will die but their child (or Dany's child, or Jon's child) will sit on the throne in the end. 

[illinifan]

I am actually going to go with the second option of your choices.  The Stark children have been getting what they want in the books only to realize what they really want is what they had in Winterfell.  It would be the ultimate twist of fate if Jon got everything he ever wanted and more and he hated it.

I also suspect that Daenerys will die after the war in childbirth.  That would be very bittersweet to have the two "heroes" win, the book seemingly headed toward a happy conclusion, and then there is a twist.  

[Leticia Stark]

I'd be surprised if she marry anyone other than Jon. The season finale gave all the hints and they usually do not deviate much from the hints they give.

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

A Dany and Jaime marriage will definitely come up as a possibililty this season.  Unlike Jon, this match would be prudent and useful right away WRT Dany's desire to conquer and unite the southern kingdoms.  Also the dramatic potential of at least teasing a Dany / Jaime match is just too much for the show runners to pass up.  Or should be.  

1. He killed her dad (who she accepts deserved it but still).  

2. Valonquar / Younger and More beautiful Queen.  

3. He'll be afraid she's be as crazy as her dad.  But admire when he sees she's Rhaegar's sister.  Plus she's hot.

4. I think Dany would enjoy Jaime's personality given her fondness for Daario and Tyrion.  Plus he's hot.

5. Tyrion is in the mix too, who killed Jaime's father but would mourn the loss of their niece and nephew.

6. Jaime is/was romantically involved with the current Mad Queen of Westeros and secretly the father of the last 2 kings of Westeros.

I mean, don't we want to hash these things out???  I really hope that they aren't left as hanging threads.  

The biggest problem with Jon as a consort is that he is far, far in the north  Far away from the population and power centers of Westeros.  He has zero intention of moving south or leaving Winterfell for any reason except possibly desperation.  He doesn't care about southerners or their politics after what happened to his father.  Dany and Jon will not meet or probably even consider each other as anything requiring immediate attention until the end of this season or season 8. Possibly Bran or Littlefinger will help push Jon to send an envoy her way (Sansa and/or Brienne perhaps?).

I think it's likely Dany marries no one but there's lots of fun in universe shiptease with Jaime, Jon, and possibly Tyrion.  I don't think anyone else will come up.  

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

5 hours ago, illinifan said:

I am actually going to go with the second option of your choices.  The Stark children have been getting what they want in the books only to realize what they really want is what they had in Winterfell.  It would be the ultimate twist of fate if Jon got everything he ever wanted and more and he hated it.

I also suspect that Daenerys will die after the war in childbirth.  That would be very bittersweet to have the two "heroes" win, the book seemingly headed toward a happy conclusion, and then there is a twist.  

But Jon never has any thoughts about the IT loll, he never wants to be king. He is like: "please stop giving me responsibility!! I only want to get warm..." 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

2 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

A Dany and Jaime marriage will definitely come up as a possibililty this season.  Unlike Jon, this match would be prudent and useful right away WRT Dany's desire to conquer and unite the southern kingdoms.  Also the dramatic potential of at least teasing a Dany / Jaime match is just too much for the show runners to pass up.  Or should be.  

1. He killed her dad (who she accepts deserved it but still).  

2. Valonquar / Younger and More beautiful Queen.  

3. He'll be afraid she's be as crazy as her dad.  But admire when he sees she's Rhaegar's sister.  Plus she's hot.

4. I think Dany would enjoy Jaime's personality given her fondness for Daario and Tyrion.  Plus he's hot.

5. Tyrion is in the mix too, who killed Jaime's father but would mourn the loss of their niece and nephew.

6. Jaime is/was romantically involved with the current Mad Queen of Westeros and secretly the father of the last 2 kings of Westeros.

I mean, don't we want to hash these things out???  I really hope that they aren't left as hanging threads.  

The biggest problem with Jon as a consort is that he is far, far in the north  Far away from the population and power centers of Westeros.  He has zero intention of moving south or leaving Winterfell for any reason except possibly desperation.  He doesn't care about southerners or their politics after what happened to his father.  Dany and Jon will not meet or probably even consider each other as anything requiring immediate attention until the end of this season or season 8. Possibly Bran or Littlefinger will help push Jon to send an envoy her way (Sansa and/or Brienne perhaps?).

I think it's likely Dany marries no one but there's lots of fun in universe shiptease with Jaime, Jon, and possibly Tyrion.  I don't think anyone else will come up.  

Marrying a Lannister whom her allies all want to skin alive (Tyrells, Dorne) is stupid and if it happened it would be her doom. She would be stupid to break the alliance with Dorne and Tyrells just because Jamie is hot. 

Jamie if he has any romantic attachment it won't be Dany, and he wouldn't feel happy if he had to marry the daughter of the man he killed. He might be a jerk but he also has some common sense and he also feels shame. 

Dany if she can win KL by force, she doesn't need to marry any Lannister at all. They were the ones who killed her whole family. Marrying one Lannister (except Tyrion who gave her his loyalty) would make her look stupid to the whole Westeros. 

If anything, Dany will more likely to kill Jamie and Cersei gets mad.