ants Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 On 7/9/2016 at 2:37 PM, peterbound said: Quote Ants: Seems simply evil and wrong to me. You're saying that effectively the government's representatives are allowed to execute you if they are close to you and have a suspicion you are trying to reach for a gun. Yes, that's what i'm saying. Was I unclear there? Well, how on earth do you justify that? Are you honestly saying its a good thing that the authorities can execute someone simply on the suspicion they're reaching for a gun? You don't have any kind of evidence criteria before they can kill you? To me the idea that is permissible is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ants Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Out of curiousity, has anyone seen any tv series around police internal affairs teams? It says something that I can't think of one, and that in police procedurals internal affairs are usually referred to in a pretty derogatory way. 6 hours ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: I think there should be a federal agency that looks into shootings like this. Wouldn't work. There is no way such an agency could respond in reasonable time to each shooting, unless they had a presence in each state. Which means a lot of the work will need to be done by a state based actor. However, there is a strong argument that this group should be as independent of the police as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I've never been a cop or a member of the military (though very few people in the military are expected to wrestle and non lethally subdue belligerents). But I have trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for many years. I'm no black belt, but if I had mount, even on a hypothetical 6'2" crossfitting former MP firefighter, I could keep decent control*. And if I had help, it wouldn't be a contest. I could definitely keep him from reaching a gun in his pocket for a while. I wouldn't need to do so indefinitely because I could grab it before he could. Off the top of my head, if you pin the guy down in a rough crucifix, and both of you kneel on one of his arms, one shin on the bicep, the other on the wrist, then the guy, unless he happens to be Brock Lesnar, will be helpless. yes, keeping a guy pinned down takes energy, but it's a lot less energy than the guy on the bottom expends. Alton Sterling, while big, did not look like he was in especially good shape. Plus the fact that he was being pinned in the first place seems to put to rest the contention that he was some kind of freak crackhead pcp addled wrestler. * If you in any way resemble that description, I'm not saying I could kick your ass, but if we started with you on the ground, with me sitting on your chest, then that's a whole different ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Line of Duty is a British cop tv show about Internal Affairs (to answer a previous question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said: Line of Duty is a British cop tv show about Internal Affairs (to answer a previous question). Yeah, I've only seen S1, but it was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 13 minutes ago, James Arryn said: Yeah, I've only seen S1, but it was good. What does the presence or absense of Police procedural TV shows about Internal Affairs investigations have to do with this incident? Aren't we getting rather far afield when attemping to claim this has any relevance at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 33 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: What does the presence or absense of Police procedural TV shows about Internal Affairs investigations have to do with this incident? Aren't we getting rather far afield when attemping to claim this has any relevance at all? Ants asked 'out of curiosity', Scott. If I had to guess, he's wondering if the hero-type for cops is such an enforced norm that we never celebrate those who keep them from abusing their power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 IA has usually been portrayed as power hungry villians. I still don't know if that fictional depiction is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: IA has usually been portrayed as power hungry villians. I still don't know if that fictional depiction is relevant. I think my favourite fictional IA portrayal is Forest Whitaker's character in The Shield, who starts off doing things properly but then gets so obsessed by trying to bring Vic down that he becomes almost as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 8 hours ago, ants said: Wouldn't work. There is no way such an agency could respond in reasonable time to each shooting, unless they had a presence in each state. Which means a lot of the work will need to be done by a state based actor. However, there is a strong argument that this group should be as independent of the police as possible. In New York the attorney general does that now. An off duty cop shot someone Fourth of July weekend and his office is looking into it. But I'm not sure you can count on every state to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I think it's relevant that society seems to worship the cop who's always right, doesn't play by the book, but is held back by the rules and bureaucracy. Even Batman falls into this archetype, though he isn't technically a cop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 9 hours ago, Seli said: On the one hand I don't doubt the data supports this. On the other hand it is one of those pieces of data that raise more questions than they answer. Where does the data come from, police incident reports (likely biased to protect the institution)? Is the high reported violennce a result of behaviour that is seen as more aggressive coming from some parts of the population than from others (ie normal unconscious racism)? Is violence against police a perfectly acceptable reason to explain use of violence by the police (ie ingrained institutional racism)? If it is real, what causes it? The history of police protecting the status quo against minorities threatening it? Some cultural elements? The overwhelming victims of black perpetrators are other black people, whether that is murder, rape, robbery or other crimes, so it doesn't really make sense that the crime statistics are a result of police bias. I think that it has to be admitted that blacks in America commit a vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime...the reasons for this are complex..but I believe it's real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: The overwhelming victims of black perpetrators are other black people, whether that is murder, rape, robbery or other crimes, so it doesn't really make sense that the crime statistics are a result of police bias. Why not? We have almost no concrete data about how many people are let off with warnings or are not arrested or are arrested and then later let go. All we have are records of people who are arrested. And we have a LOT of data indicating that black people are pressured significantly to take plea deals and sign confessions for crimes they did not commit. 17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said: I think that it has to be admitted that blacks in America commit a vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime...the reasons for this are complex..but I believe it's real. When you factor in socioeconomics and urban vs. rural life this disproportion becomes much less vast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 14 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said: Just to latch on to the points you've been making, I'd like to add that refusing to acknowledge one's own personal biases, whether conscious or unconscious, is a contributing part of the problem. People will instead outright deny they have biases, try to justify their language or behavior, become combative and angry. I've encountered those who say that even suggesting bigotry is the worst you can say to a person and another become enraged and threatened to double down on insensitive language. I know what you mean, yet at a distance this kind of naive realism (quoted above) can be amusing. Less so when -as the case may be- the pedant happens to be engaging in self-deception more than educating the hoi polloi about socially constructed 'facts.' After all, I don't know too many people who are passive in the face of false accusation, and when a practicing demagogue then uses their opponent's reaction as further fuel it can be quite galling. Thing is, as often as not the purported reproval is a false equivalencey that the self-righteous use to convince themselves and others as proof rather than fiction. Whether its an unconscious form of confirmation bias or no, such polemical self aggrandizing that tends to vilification instead of enlightenment-- proves as counter productive to meaningful discourse as the ignorance it's framed to allegedly combat is. Especially in loaded topics like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: Why not? We have almost no concrete data about how many people are let off with warnings or are not arrested or are arrested and then later let go. All we have are records of people who are arrested. And we have a LOT of data indicating that black people are pressured significantly to take plea deals and sign confessions for crimes they did not commit. This is very true. Police, in general, have a lot of discretion in how, what, and when to apply. While probably a lesson in futility, it would be interesting to see some kind of statistical break down of such instances, which I'd think are relatively frequent and not exactly outside the larger discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 30 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: Why not? We have almost no concrete data about how many people are let off with warnings or are not arrested or are arrested and then later let go. All we have are records of people who are arrested. And we have a LOT of data indicating that black people are pressured significantly to take plea deals and sign confessions for crimes they did not commit. When you factor in socioeconomics and urban vs. rural life this disproportion becomes much less vast. At the very least, we have murders. It's hard to hide bodies. And Black people are disproportionately the victims of homicide, which almost certainly means they are disproportionately the perpetrators of homicide as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 18 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said: At the very least, we have murders. It's hard to hide bodies. And Black people are disproportionately the victims of homicide, which almost certainly means they are disproportionately the perpetrators of homicide as well That's certainly true, though thanks to Pokemon Go we're finding a lot more bodies than we knew about. (Missing persons cases are also not marked as homicides or even deaths, FYI). Ultimately we simply don't know. We don't have good stats, the stats we do have are heavily biased due to the way they're collected, and the anecdotal data we have is entirely colored by the politics that we have. And none of it speaks to cause. As an example, we have a good inkling that one of the primary morals that all humans have is fairness, and humans (along with other primates) react with violence when things are unfair. It is a reasonable hypothesis that one of the reasons that murders among african americans is higher with respect to per capita rates is because the way that fairness is dealt with by white society - police and law and order - is implicitly distrusted, and therefore the only way to deal with things fairly is to deal with it via the community. Another thing we don't know is whether this data is temporal or not. Anecdotally we think this is the case; that the rise of AA violence appears to be heavily correlated with the rise of gangs. This is also true about, for example, prohibition and the rise of violence of white people against white people and violence against cops. This site has a neat graph about violent crime rates from 1960 on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 7 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: That's certainly true, though thanks to Pokemon Go we're finding a lot more bodies than we knew about. (Missing persons cases are also not marked as homicides or even deaths, FYI). Is this a thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 3 minutes ago, JEORDHl said: Is this a thing? I think 'a lot' is an exaggeration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 18 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said: I think 'a lot' is an exaggeration. Yeah, it was a joke. Though it does have origin in truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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