RIO 16 - Best bits

[dbunting]

2 minutes ago, Guess who's back said:

lol, what are you talking about. Muscle/weight difference doesn't allow sprinters to even be close to medals in long distances. 

I am saying that he doesn't even compare to sprinters, he is too unique to use in a physical comparison.

[Which Tyler]

29 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Interesting. Personally I wouldn't want to ditch any of the apparatus, but if I was it would have been one of either P-bars or Rings. The others are all too different from each other to really justify cutting them, IMO. Vault is more interesting to perform than to watch though, I'll give you that. Probably because it's over so quickly.

Rings is way too iconic for men's gymnastics; hell the single most iconic element of all men's gymnastics would be the crucifix position.

I'll take your word on performing any of these things; I can just about do the play-dead position on the rings, or to hold my stationary (under) the high bar. Personally, Vault is over too quickly for me; I need the slow-mo replays to tell anything at all beyond the landing; and I watch quite a bit of gymnastics; and can keep up with the rest as they go.

High bar just doesn't interest me - no idea why, it just doesn't; but I'd say of all the apparatus, P-bar and pommel are the closest to each other (and not particularly close even then). Mind you, the differences between apparatus are plenty enough that no-one has ever won gold in all 6; only 1 person has ever won medals in all 6 as far as I can find (Aleksandr Dityatin 1980).

[polishgenius]

27 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I am saying that he doesn't even compare to sprinters, he is too unique to use in a physical comparison.

 

 

He's tall, which is unusual in a sprinter but, since he is uniquely able to sort out his limbs in the space of a race, he can attain the higher top speed and that's why he crushes everyone.

However, Ghb will have been referring to the fact that sprinters are far more muscled than middle- and long-distance runners, and despite his length that isn't different for Bolt. It's possible that he could run long distances as well - he just couldn't do both at the same time, the requirements for explosiveness vs stamina are too different.
Compare Bolt's physique to the similarly gangly David Rudisha. And then compare again to Mo Farah.

 

[dbunting]

6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

He's tall, which is unusual in a sprinter but, since he is uniquely able to sort out his limbs in the space of a race, he can attain the higher top speed and that's why he crushes everyone.

However, Ghb will have been referring to the fact that sprinters are far more muscled than middle- and long-distance runners, and despite his length that isn't different for Bolt. It's possible that he could run long distances as well - he just couldn't do both at the same time, the requirements for explosiveness vs stamina are too different.
Compare Bolt's physique to the similarly gangly David Rudisha. And then compare again to Mo Farah.

 

Katey Ledecky winning the gold medal in 200m and world record holder in the 1500m is just that much more special then? Since one is considered a long distance swim and the other is more of a sprint?

[Andriy Czarchenko]

16 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Katey Ledecky winning the gold medal in 200m and world record holder in the 1500m is just that much more special then? Since one is considered a long distance swim and the other is more of a sprint?

200m is not a sprint in swimming.

[lacuna]

16 minutes ago, dbunting said:

This is where your argument falls flat in my mind. Nothing is stopping Bolt or anyone else from trying to run longer races, he chooses not to or simply can't. Ledecki won short swims and longs swims this year, which no one had done before. Why doesn't Bolt try?

 

He chooses not to because it would be near impossible for him, or anyone, to be competitive in more than two Olympic running events, with sprinters having the added benefit of relays. Middle and long distance runners don't even get relays. The fact that so many more golds are attainable in swimming, as shown with Phelps, Spitz, Ledecki and others, ought to tell you all you need to know. Or are you arguing that runners are simply lazy?

Carl Lewis sort of throws a wrench in this argument by also having competed in the long jump.

It doesn't make sense to me to have a sprint and an almost-sprint in four different styles, and two sprints, two middle and one long distance race in freestyle. In a hypothetical democratic vote on what indoor Olympic swimming should comprise, I'd go with:

• 100 m butterfly (just one, because it's useless)
• 100 m breaststroke
• 600 m breaststroke
• 100 m backstroke
• 600 m backstroke
• 100 m freestyle
• 400 m freestyle (I'm being generous with this one)
• 1000 m freestyle
• 200 m medley
• 4x100 freestyle relay

More sprints because they're more TV friendly.

I think swimming is the squeaky wheel in summer Olympics. The sport that has the most medals to offer for any one athlete in any one Game. My argument is that the number of medals won by Phelps (for example) is artificial, even if his prowess as an athlete isn't.

[Kyoshi]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Anyone outside the UK who wants to watch ANY event live could do a lot worse than get a VPN and use the BBC iPlayer.

I use AirVPN. It's cheap, reliable, and super-easy to install. Pricing plans are really flexible. You can get a three-day subscription for just one Euro.

Thanks. I'll check it out. I missed most of the synchronised swimming duets and Biles's individual floor final.

[dbunting]

29 minutes ago, lacuna said:

 

He chooses not to because it would be near impossible for him, or anyone, to be competitive in more than two Olympic running events, with sprinters having the added benefit of relays. Middle and long distance runners don't even get relays. The fact that so many more golds are attainable in swimming, as shown with Phelps, Spitz, Ledecki and others, ought to tell you all you need to know. Or are you arguing that runners are simply lazy?

Carl Lewis sort of throws a wrench in this argument by also having competed in the long jump.

It doesn't make sense to me to have a sprint and an almost-sprint in four different styles, and two sprints, two middle and one long distance race in freestyle. In a hypothetical democratic vote on what indoor Olympic swimming should comprise, I'd go with:

• 100 m butterfly (just one, because it's useless)
• 100 m breaststroke
• 600 m breaststroke
• 100 m backstroke
• 600 m backstroke
• 100 m freestyle
• 400 m freestyle (I'm being generous with this one)
• 1000 m freestyle
• 200 m medley
• 4x100 freestyle relay

More sprints because they're more TV friendly.

I think swimming is the squeaky wheel in summer Olympics. The sport that has the most medals to offer for any one athlete in any one Game. My argument is that the number of medals won by Phelps (for example) is artificial, even if his prowess as an athlete isn't.

It isn't artificial because only people who are heads and shoulders above their competition can win multiple ones.

I guess I give the swimmers the edge because they do more than a sprinter. A sprinter, to me, only does one thing. Run fast for a short distance in a straight line.

A swimmer must swim fast, flip over and swim fast again, and if they want to win "useless" medals, then they also have to swim fast backwards and forwards in several different ways, while flipping over in the water numerous times.

To me, the most prestigious medals should be decathlon, and gymnastics. To me that is more like the swimming medley.  To be world class at several disciplines is truly amazing.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Andriy Czarchenko said:

200m is not a sprint in swimming.

Read the whole content, compared to a 1500m race, it's a sprint.

[Kyoshi]

2 hours ago, dbunting said:

As to swimming the different strokes. Anyone who has ever tried to swim them all would know they are nothing alike. I am a pretty good swimmer and I can't do the butterfly, just too awkward for me and requires more muscle use than most humans can muster. The back stroke is entirely different, you are on your back the entire time and nearly drowning. The breast stroke requires a kick motion that you only do while breast stroking. Then you have the free style, which is the most common. 

 

To me at least, the backstroke sort of makes the most compelling case to the ridiculousness of the presence of all these disciplines. Like some posters keep saying, it's like having a race where track athletes run backwards. It seems an arbitrary style and not entirely necessary at a competitive level. I'd personally find it more compelling if they had hurdles in the pool and the swimmers had to swim over them, or something like that. But that's just me.

[dbunting]

Just now, Kyoshi said:

To me at least, the backstroke sort of makes the most compelling case to the ridiculousness of the presence of all these disciplines. Like some posters keep saying, it's like having a race where track athletes run backwards. It seems an arbitrary style and not entirely necessary at a competitive level. I'd personally find it more compelling if they had hurdles in the pool and the swimmers had to swim over them, or something like that. But that's just me.

Or it's like having a race where you have to sort of jump over something. Or a race where there is this weird jump and some water? Or some race where you kind of run and kind of walk?

In each persons eyes something different is ridiculous. I likely defend the water sports more because I love to swim.

 

[Andriy Czarchenko]

39 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Read the whole content, compared to a 1500m race, it's a sprint.

Negative. It´s just not a sprint. Compared to track the equivalent would be 800m, while 800m which the women swim at the olympics would be 3k. The very best 800m/1500m runners are usually also very good on either 400m or 3/5k depending on from which side they come. Ledecky is pretty much the swimming equivalent of a great 1500m/5000m runner.

[Spockydog]

4 hours ago, Guess who's back said:

Go ahead and look at pictures in google from 100m sprinters and 1500m runners. Now you know. He physically cant compete in long distances.

Even better, have a look at the state of the decathletes at the end of tonight's 1500 meters.

 

[baxus]

Serbian women's volleyball team's performance in the tournament overall has impressed me very much.

They beat Russia 3-0 in quarterfinals, won first set 25-9.

After that, they won against USA (who they've lost to in the group stages) 3 sets to 2. Specially impressive part was that they were trailing 10-7 and 12-10 in the fifth set and still managed to come out on top.

In the finals they will face China, who they beat 3-0 in the group stage. Hopefully, we get a repeat performance of that.  

[Kyoshi]

Another one for me didn't happen directly in the Olympics, but after. The South African support for Caster Semenya has been one of those rare good things we've all agreed on in a while. A lot of heat is still coming her way from the likes of GBR's Sharp (frustrated by competition against an elite athlete) and the Polish woman (who was glad to be the second European and second white across the finish line, thus dismissing every athlete on the podium and declaring herself the rightful silver medalist of her whites-only Olympics). But I just watched an interview Semenya gave an hour ago and the love she's getting just seems to be overpowering all that bigotry. It's really giving me the feels, I'll tell you. Sometimes I actually believe in us as a progressive nation.

/Sappy rant over.

The Ethiopian marathon silver medalist also did a brave thing at the finish line. I don't know how wise it was given that his family is still in Ethiopia (I think), but it's moments like that--like the one with The White Man In That Photo--that give the Olympics some much needed relevance. One of the reasons I was glad the Refugee Team was not conflated into the IOA.

Another one in my top 3 has to be some of the gold medalists who gave their nations the first ever gold. The woman from Kosovo in particular. She really tugged at my heartstrings that one. Really got me. The Ivorian who won in taekwondo too. I missed the Fiji medal presentation (thanks to swimming) but I suspect that might have made it to my list too.

And Sunette Viljoen's smile. Such a great woman.

[Which Tyler]

Pretty sure* the Semenya thing is absolutely nothing to do with skin colour, and veiled** accusations like that aren't particularly cool; doing a massive disservice to all 3 athletes,the entire debate, and yourself.

When there are so many examples of real racism around, throwing blatantly false accusations around doesn't help anyone, but can hurt the cause as well.

 

* pretty sure as in 100% absolutely certain.

** very, very thinly veiled.

 

Of course, Brendan Fraser should never have thrown that question at Sharp immediately after the race, it's a question that deserves discussion, in a calm and informed manner, not in the heat and emotion of the moment.

[Kyoshi]

Of course Sharp doesn't have issue with Caster or the other medalists' skin colour, and I don't see how you concluded that from my post. Sharp had issues with Caster's womanhood and her right to compete as a woman, which is no less bigoted, but a separate issue altogether. 

My issue is with the Polish woman, as I said in my post. Nothing veiled about it. I'm as blatant as I intended to be. These are direct quotes of the things she said after the race:

"I consider myself to be a silver medalist."

"Those three athletes on the podium are very controversial, it's strange that authorities do nothing about it."

"On my way to the stadium I was walking behind Wambui, who is three times bigger than me. How should I feel? She has a big calf, big foot, she makes a step like three of my steps."

"They have a high level of testosterone, close to the men's level, and that's why they look like they look, and they run like they run."***

"It hurts a bit, I saw Melissa Bishop who was very disappointed, she improved on her personal best and was fourth. It's sad, and I think she should be the gold medalist."

"I'm glad I'm the first European, and the second White."

"I will inject myself with a bit of testosterone next time to win a medal."

Never mind the un-Olympianness of these statements, but I specifically watched one of the women's 100m heats to see if a certain Indian athlete would get the qualifier spot because her testosterone once tested higher than the IAAF allowed for women. In fact, her case was effectively the one that allowed Caster to race without a hormone suppressant. The Indian woman went home in the first heat.

Also consider that the silver medalist in that race--Burundi's Niyonsaba, came seventh in London 2012. Even more, neither Niyonsaba nor Wambui have divulged their respective "testosterone statuses," as this other woman suggests. Her diagnosis on those two is based on their physical appearances. Her problems are a conflation of skin colour and what she thinks a woman should look like, or run like, or be dainty like, etc.

Both women are bigoted, but only the Polish woman chose to mention race all on her own. But of course, I'm always willing to be enlightened on these other cases of "real racism."

***too much 'us and them' in this entire statement.

[Veltigar]

I just don't seem to get this whole Semenya thing really. So her body produces more testosterone than the average woman athlete? Well, big fucking deal that. All the top athletes in Rio are genetic freaks one way or another, so why should this peculiarity of hers be any different from all the other special quirks on display in Rio? We should be thankful that she isn't doping up the rafters at the very least. If she did that, then her competition has the right to complain.  Add to that that without many hours of hard work and dedication she would still get nowhere with her gift (just like Bolt's massive stride would count for nothing if he didn't put in the work).

There is something fishy about the whole witch hunt against her. I'm not usually the one to cry racism, but when you see the comments of that Polish athlete, I don't see how you can doubt that racism played a role on her part. It's very blatant. In general, I wonder if so much muck would have been thrown her way if she was white and had this same abberation. 

[Kyoshi]

^Bolt's stride did nothing for him in Athens. He lost in the heats, didn't even qualify for the semis. Similar for the woman from Burundi. She came 7th in London. Then she went home, put in the work and got a medal 4 years later.

[Dr. Pepper]

I agree that the support behind Semenya has been truly heartwarming.  It feels like a major victory in the battle against the policing of women's bodies.  It's utter nonsense and assholic to suggest that this policing with regards to Semenya and other women who have been similarly witch hunted does not have a strong root in racism.  This "real racism" crap can fuck right off.  

I actually attended a small Caster Semenya celebration recently.  It was part of a feminist group I belong to.  She's really inspired a lot of people. 

On a different note, I ran across this article about Houry Gebeshian, an Armenian-American gymnast who became Armenia's first female gymnast entrant at the Olympics.  She fell just short of qualifying for the London Olympics and had hung up her leotard and starting working as a physician's assistant.  She decided to try again for Rio, so despite working long hours and not having coach she got herself back into shape and qualified for a space to compete.  Another best bit of Rio, I thought.