What makes GRRM and this series so amazing for you?

[A Ghost of Someone]

The details in so many characters. the stories within the story, not black and white, grey, believable, despite being a fiction story with magic, dragons and undead for the light and darkness. The common people are there as well as the worst of the worst, the best, the guilt, the innocent all everyone in between. DETAILS.

[Jon Fossoway]

Dialogues. GRRM excels at dialogue building, and in giving characters a distinctive voice -even secondary and very minor characters-, which you can recognize. I am sure George could build an entire chapter based on two people talking (along with the various and cleverly used dialogue interjections  -said, replied, pointed out, etc- which gives a lot of dynamic to the dialogues themselves).

This being said, I think George is a master at building dialogues and characters dialogues. He knows how to knit them. And this is not casual; I believe his best works are set in this very medieval setting because the characters are bound to TALK face to face. And that's what exactly George shines.

His prose is okay. Consistent, worked over the years but not as near as extraordinary as the dialogues.

I also like the way he homages around so many stuff, and influences (Vance, Lovecraft) and even go as far as fooling around (Dickon Manwoody, or just building a friggin' House named ManWoody) but still managing to keep the tone.

[John Doe]

His ability to reserve moral judgement while writing. 

[Wrl6199]

What makes it so amazing is how hes not afraid to piss off some fans to tell a great story.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Most of the stuff has been said already:

- The details: Details in his worldbuilding, the characters and also in the words he chooses. I love how I can discover something new about the story on every re-read. This is certainly an experience I don't have with many books. 

- The characters: This is always the most important part of any story for me. GRRM has some of the most amazing characters I've ever read about and his cast of characters is really diverse. I love how each character is different and how he gives each POV his or her own voice. It's fascinating how he makes you sympatize with charcters who have done things for which we would normally hate them. I also love his redemptive arcs and think he has done a truly amazing job with both Jaime and Theon. After having read AGOT and ACOK I would have never believed that Jaime would become one of my favourites. There are not many authors who have the ability to turn a character I used to hate, into one of my favourite characters. 

- His female characters: I have to explain this in a seperate point. Now, I don't want to generalise, there are many other (male) fantasy authors who write female characters very well and have some truly amazing characters. However, when I started reading fantasy there were still many fantasy novels which only had female characters who served as damels in distress or as love interests for the protagonist. If there were women who had a bigger role, they would often fall into the chlichee warrior women troope. Some authors had female characters in more different roles and more nuanced female characters. However, over the years I've encountered many (again not all) male fantasy authors who seem to have a problem with writing female POVs and write female characters who spend half their time thinking about men and fashion. This trend is currently changing and there are of course other (male) authors who do a great job in writing female characters, but in my eyes there are very few male authors who write female characters in such a good way as GRRM does. I also love how different his female charaters are: we have fighters, scemers, seducers, good women, bad women and something in between and each of this characters is different.

- The morality: I love how GRRM makes me question my own morality and my belief about what is good and what is not. I also like that he does not have the typical black/ white morality. One thing I dislike about many other fantasy novels is the the clear distinction between good and evil and how one side is purely good and the other purely evil. I love how GRRM shows us good and evil on different sides and what I like even more is how we often see that there something in between good and evil. 

[YOVMO]

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 8:39 PM, Daendrew said:

Calling out a few of my buddies here to chime in

What a nice thing to be called out on! Thanks!

Like you and, I imagine, many here I truly do believe that Martin is a genius. I do not use that word lightly. I am one of the people who cringe everytime someone mentions something is "genius" or someone is a "genius" but there is plenty of reason to believe that here.

To mention BUT a few (and not only is this not an exhaustive list, but barely will it scratch the surface):

1. The POV chapter system is just incredible. All readers always need to take narrators fallibility into account. But this is just layer on layer on layer. We go into this world through the minds of the characters. So not only what they do, what they say, how they react, what they hope and dream and plan and pray for build them but the way in which we see other characters means much and more about the POV character. It took me until my third read through until I could really force myself to say, for instance, when Varys is described in an Eddard chapter what does that say about Eddard. It is easy to fall into the habit of seeing a description of a character as information about the character described....but there is an incredible amount of being an active reader required to continually force yourself to remember that a person, place or event's description says just as much about the POV narrator as it does about that person place or event. One of my favorite chapters so far in the entire series is the chapter towards the end of Dance where Arya serves water at the meeting for the secret servants of the house of black and white (I do honestly believe that that is a top 5 most important chapter in the book) and we are getting tons of descriptions of the servants. But are they wearing their own faces? Are they wearing false faces? Are these the same false faces they wear in public or no? All these and more questions. But again....we need to take all of Arya's prejudices and thoughts into account as well. On a much more simple note: Think about a man being described as handsome in a Sansa chapter versus a man being described as handsome in an Arya chapter versus a man being described as handsome versus a man being described as handsome in a Cersei chapter. All three men are handsome in someone's eyes, but would Arya POV that mentions a handsome man be talking about some Cersei or Sansa would think is handsome? Absolutely not. Now take this simple analogy and apply it to every time someone talks about something being "good" or "noble" or "exciting" or "necessary" or pretty much anything else. The nuance is almost unfathomable.
2. The existential motifs and moral relativity. It is so difficult to write shades of gray well. It really is. It almost always comes off as campy and absurd. I honestly do not believe anyone has ever written moral shades of gray as well as grrm other than maybe Dostoyevsky who, I believe, is the only author we can really compare with Martin. The absolute nihilism is astonishing and, at the same time, positive in a Nietzshean sense. The nihilism is life affirming.
3. The texture. I mean, there is just so much. Sometimes when we, the people who theorize and comment here, pick up on tiny bits of minutia and very small facts and unravel them it is hard to tell: is this world building or is it relevant. That Varys sleeps in a sparse chamber and on a concrete slab the same way that acolytes do in the House of Black and white despite his perfumed character to me is incredibly telling. Does it mean Varys is a faceless man? To me...yes. I think so. To others, no and the sparseness of the room has some other meaning. What about Weirwood and Ebony doors being placed are strangely strategic places throughout the books? I think it is important? maybe just universe building. Maybe they look nice. Look at @Seams and the wonderful work regarding threads and knitting (of yard and world). Seams has done mind bogglingly good work digging out the smallest things and intelligently fitting them into the larger puzzle. Seams has done such great work that I still feel a sense of pride that I got to point out that the surname Heddle was important at the inn at the crossroads. This much depth and world building, this much texture, this level of detail.....it is so immense and so wonderful. I think that High Harps are insanely important. They could also be totally irrelevant though and it wouldn't surprise me. That is kind of amazing.
4. For my final point which, again, doesn't even scratch the surface, I will say that grrms intentionality is really amazing. His thorough knowledge and real in-depth understanding of both fantasy as well as history coupled with his ability to  write the texture I mentioned in the previous point really makes me feel that he takes the time to make very deliberate and very conscious decisions regarding every single little detail. I believe that there are, for instance, plenty of sigils that will be of absolutely no relevance and even those, I feel, have been thought over and worked on. The amount of effort is astounding.

I hope you have cheered up a bit and thanks for this fun thread.

[SiSt]

Being on the third listening, and only having heard the audio books, which likely means I miss out on a lot of detail, I would like to add my little contribution to this discussion. 

I believe the key is the author's restraint. Is so tempting to tell a story clearly, to make your intentions clear to the reader and to reveal too much, too soon. There's restraint in the use of magic, restraint in clarity, restraint in moral judgement, restraint in explaining what's really going on, in what's true and false, what's good and evil, what's a right and wrong choice, a good or bad decision, etc etc etc. 

The restraint is what leaves the story open for interpretation, what creates the relativism and subjectivity in the tale and which makes it so enjoyable to read (or hear) several times over. 

[kimim]

Hm. Not sure if this is a cheery post, as I don't believe GRRM is the best writer ever, or even one of the best writers, ever. He's a very good writer but inconsistent for me. I consider Feast and Dance mediocre, and I am annoyed with the long waits for Winds and Dream to the extent that I can only recommend the series with warnings.

HOWEVER: i loved the first three novels so much and was so frustrated with the last two and the delays that I needed something, anything, to make up for that. I started to look for other writers and found them. Thanks to my feelings both negative and positive about Martin, I discovered Mark Lawrence, Joe Abercrombie, Daniel Abraham, Robin Hobb, Brandon Sanderson and others, all of whom have added immensely to my enjoyment of life, and through them, I'm discovering more excellent writers like Josiah Bancroft.

I've always been a reader, but this is something of a rebirth as a reader for me, and that would be entirely due to GRRM. tbh, had I loved the rest of asoiaf as much as I loved Game, Clash, and Storm, I might never have moved on to other writers. I would be sitting here, going "oh he's the best writer ever and why can't they be more like him?" Instead, I start a new fantasy with an open mind and no need to compare.

Thank you, GRRM.

[Lord Lannister]

It's the political intrigue and how it weaves itself into the characters lives that got me hooked. Oddly enough, I think the weakest parts of these fantasy novels are the actual fantasy elements. Often when the story delves into Others, dragons or magic I find it bogging down and can't wait until the next King's Landing chapter.

[ShimShim]

Its a small thing, but no other book series ever made me so interested in all the theories revolving around its history and lore, the future possibilities. There are so many theories, some plausible, some crackpot theories, all of which are fun to explore.  

[Daendrew]

1 hour ago, ShimShim said:

Its a small thing, but no other book series ever made me so interested in all the theories revolving around its history and lore, the future possibilities. There are so many theories, some plausible, some crackpot theories, all of which are fun to explore.  

 

1,000x yes. It's incredible. It takes a village to decipher GRRM's subtle language and the fandom's input dramatically increases the enjoyment. This is without a doubt the most devoted and obesessed fandom in literature. 

 

11 hours ago, YOVMO said:

What a nice thing to be called out on! Thanks!

Like you and, I imagine, many here I truly do believe that Martin is a genius. I do not use that word lightly. I am one of the people who cringe everytime someone mentions something is "genius" or someone is a "genius" but there is plenty of reason to believe that here.

To mention BUT a few (and not only is this not an exhaustive list, but barely will it scratch the surface):

1. The POV chapter system is just incredible. All readers always need to take narrators fallibility into account. But this is just layer on layer on layer. We go into this world through the minds of the characters. So not only what they do, what they say, how they react, what they hope and dream and plan and pray for build them but the way in which we see other characters means much and more about the POV character. It took me until my third read through until I could really force myself to say, for instance, when Varys is described in an Eddard chapter what does that say about Eddard. It is easy to fall into the habit of seeing a description of a character as information about the character described....but there is an incredible amount of being an active reader required to continually force yourself to remember that a person, place or event's description says just as much about the POV narrator as it does about that person place or event. One of my favorite chapters so far in the entire series is the chapter towards the end of Dance where Arya serves water at the meeting for the secret servants of the house of black and white (I do honestly believe that that is a top 5 most important chapter in the book) and we are getting tons of descriptions of the servants. But are they wearing their own faces? Are they wearing false faces? Are these the same false faces they wear in public or no? All these and more questions. But again....we need to take all of Arya's prejudices and thoughts into account as well. On a much more simple note: Think about a man being described as handsome in a Sansa chapter versus a man being described as handsome in an Arya chapter versus a man being described as handsome versus a man being described as handsome in a Cersei chapter. All three men are handsome in someone's eyes, but would Arya POV that mentions a handsome man be talking about some Cersei or Sansa would think is handsome? Absolutely not. Now take this simple analogy and apply it to every time someone talks about something being "good" or "noble" or "exciting" or "necessary" or pretty much anything else. The nuance is almost unfathomable.
2. The existential motifs and moral relativity. It is so difficult to write shades of gray well. It really is. It almost always comes off as campy and absurd. I honestly do not believe anyone has ever written moral shades of gray as well as grrm other than maybe Dostoyevsky who, I believe, is the only author we can really compare with Martin. The absolute nihilism is astonishing and, at the same time, positive in a Nietzshean sense. The nihilism is life affirming.
3. The texture. I mean, there is just so much. Sometimes when we, the people who theorize and comment here, pick up on tiny bits of minutia and very small facts and unravel them it is hard to tell: is this world building or is it relevant. That Varys sleeps in a sparse chamber and on a concrete slab the same way that acolytes do in the House of Black and white despite his perfumed character to me is incredibly telling. Does it mean Varys is a faceless man? To me...yes. I think so. To others, no and the sparseness of the room has some other meaning. What about Weirwood and Ebony doors being placed are strangely strategic places throughout the books? I think it is important? maybe just universe building. Maybe they look nice. Look at @Seams and the wonderful work regarding threads and knitting (of yard and world). Seams has done mind bogglingly good work digging out the smallest things and intelligently fitting them into the larger puzzle. Seams has done such great work that I still feel a sense of pride that I got to point out that the surname Heddle was important at the inn at the crossroads. This much depth and world building, this much texture, this level of detail.....it is so immense and so wonderful. I think that High Harps are insanely important. They could also be totally irrelevant though and it wouldn't surprise me. That is kind of amazing.
4. For my final point which, again, doesn't even scratch the surface, I will say that grrms intentionality is really amazing. His thorough knowledge and real in-depth understanding of both fantasy as well as history coupled with his ability to  write the texture I mentioned in the previous point really makes me feel that he takes the time to make very deliberate and very conscious decisions regarding every single little detail. I believe that there are, for instance, plenty of sigils that will be of absolutely no relevance and even those, I feel, have been thought over and worked on. The amount of effort is astounding.

I hope you have cheered up a bit and thanks for this fun thread.

 

Seven blessings to you Yovmo. You and the other posteres here really cheered me up

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Martin's greatest skill is his ability to tell a good story. He can create multiple and diverse narratives told through the perspective of men & women, adults & children, good & vile people. His ability to write funny and engaging dialogue is also a huge strength. Obviously, as others have said, his attention to detail is astonishing. I personally love the humanity that he imbues to the smallest of characters. One gets the feeling while reading ASOIAF that all of the people in this world have their own adventures and stories. This world existed before Martin put pen to paper, and will continue existing once he finally stops. The sense of realism and historiography is dazzling and I still don't know how Martin manages to create a history for his world that feels so familiar without any of it being a direct parallel for an event in our time. Also, I've heard some people say that Martin's prose is "weak." I find that to be a shallow critique that usually fails to explain what exactly is meant. Martin's vocabulary can occasionally be repetitive, and he likes certain phrases. That said, he's very skilled at creating mood and atmosphere. Martin is a phenomenal horror writer, re-read the spooky ASOIAF chapters and you'll see what I mean.

For myself, I am a HUGE fan of the tragedy. Shakespeare, the Greeks, Ibsen, etc. are all favorites of mine, and the world of Ice and Fire is a tragi-fantasy. It gives Martin's story a sense of weight and power. Much like some of the great tragedies, I have a feeling that Martin's work will stand the test of time.

[Daendrew]

*Bump*

This world is both brutal and real. Yet the beauty of it still trancends, making it a world worth saving. That's why we root for our heroes, yet everyone in the story is the hero of their own story.

[Lifestream]

It took me a while to form an answer for this thread.

 

I won't compare him to anyone else, just write down what I enjoy in the books.

 

I really enjoy that we get the point of view of many different characters instead of just one. I don't entirely like a character, meaning there have been many if not most characters who I have liked at some point of the story and then disappointed me with their actions/decisions. I see that as a good thing cause it makes the characters more dynamic as they can all do good and bad and change.

 

The books have a huge re-readability value as you can miss many things the first time, so that's always a plus.

 

Another thing I like is that you can understand most of the characters and relate to them in some way. Although some decisions are bad or maybe morally wrong, they make sense in the context of the book and what is happening to them.

 

I also love that we get to hear their thoughts and flashbacks. I think I tried watching the show and probably will at some point, but it felt dry by comparison.

 

And almost forgot, it's pretty fun trying to come up with theories or getting exposed to other theories that are circulating.

[The Hammer of Justice]

I love many things about ASOIAF, but the number one in my list is: World-building. GRRM created a complete world, with tons of different cultures, cities, mythology, religion and its own historiy (It even has a world map in it). When you read the books, it feels as if you were transported to another world.

Number 2: Unpredictability. Seriously, was there anyone who do not fell off his chair when Ned was beheaded?

Number 3: The POV system. It decentralize the story around a single protagonist, making EVERYONE seem important to the story

Number 4: I love how even though the book's theme is fantasy, GRRM sometimes makes it look like science fiction.

Number 5: I like how GRRM puts in so many plots insides plots, and still being able to keep it consistent (mostly though, because I think there are a few plots that were not very well written).

But, there are also some things I don't like:

Number 1: Book quality inconsistency. AGOT and ASOS were so incredible and fast paced, and then we got ACOK, AFFC and ADWD who were.......well, let's just say it took ACOK 200 pages for something interesting to happen, in AFFC it seems almost nothing happen at all. Same with D&E stories, THK and TMK were pretty good and significant, and then TSS who could be removed from the series without making any difference. TWoW better be very intense or I will be really mad!

Number 2: Prophecies, prophecies, prophecies, prophecies, prophecies, and more prophecies. Prophecies are cool, but do we have to have a new prophecy every two pages? Also, where do all those prophecies come anyway?

[Danelle]

I agree with all those who mention the dialogue, unpredictability, morality, but what really makes him an amazing writer for me, is the development of three characters in particular:

 

• Jaime Lannister
• Sansa Stark
• Theon Greyjoy

 

In a world where dragons exist, dead can be brought back in numerous ways, everyone is conspiring, fighting, plotting, I find myself immersed in the storyline of the three characters in particular.

 

In a story with so many characters some more prominent others less important, I can't help but admire the way that Martin has weaved the tales of those three characters, against the initial expectations of the reader in regards to the motives, agency and potential of those three characters.