US Politics: The Transition Continues

[Mexal]

4 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

@Mexal-

Will any rival hoteliers have the guts to sue him under the Emoluments Clause, though?

Probably. I don't think this is going to go away and given how blatant he is, I think someone is going to do something like that eventually. It might take awhile though.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

32 minutes ago, S John said:

Speaking in generalities, and without getting into specific policies, the rural vs. urban divide is all about how rural people perceive the need for government.  Rural areas have less infrastructure, and of course are much less crowded.  Even if those areas are subsidized heavily by the urban centers of business and population, people living in rural areas don't see the day-to-day need for government involvement in their lives the same way that urban dwellers do.  They have a much lower level of exposure to the very real need for cooperation required to make society function properly.  

It only takes a short period of time living in any city to see that you really NEED some kind of governing body to oversee and enforce things or else the entire thing will be a major clusterfuck.  Traffic has to be managed, infrastructure has to be maintained, trash has to get picked up, people have to be transported around, etc.  People living in close proximity with one another have a clearer understanding that in order to have a functioning society some level of give and take is required between each citizen, other citizens, and the government. 

In rural America, the feeling is that government could vanish completely and not all that much would change, really.  And that perception is not completely off-base, a lack of government would certainly harm urban areas far more than rural areas, therefore the government is viewed as a hindrance to the rural way of life rather than a necessity.  Even while those areas benefit from the relative prosperity of the urban centers, that isn't something that is readily visible and it's extremely easy to promote the narrative of soft, weak urban dwellers wanting to extend government control over the hearty, hard-working rural folk.  

This is really well said.  Thanks.

 

@Mexal - wonder if it will be a non-US brand like Intercontinental.  Need to think about standing, etc.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kalbear,

See what S John said.  

[ljkeane]

43 minutes ago, S John said:

 In rural America, the feeling is that government could vanish completely and not all that much would change, really.  And that perception is not completely off-base, a lack of government would certainly harm urban areas far more than rural areas.

Really? I'd kind of lean towards the opposite being true actually.

I don't think it'd actually work but you can sort of make a case for the libertarian ideal of in the absence of government private entities would step in to provide services if there's sufficient demand for them in high population density areas. In rural areas without government intervention and subsidies from urban regions things like modern transportation and communications links and emergency services just aren't happening.

[Weeping Sore]

@Ser Scot A Ellison-

You should still have to reach a higher bar to justify inequality of representation.

[Tempra]

3 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Really? I'd kind of lean towards the opposite being true actually.

I don't think it'd actually work but you can sort of make a case for the libertarian ideal of in the absence of government private entities would step in to provide services if there's sufficient demand for them in high population density areas. In rural areas without government intervention and subsidies from urban regions things like modern transportation and communications links and emergency services just aren't happening.

Have you lived in a major (American) city? The guns come out when the stops lights go off.

[ljkeane]

14 minutes ago, Tempra said:

Have you lived in a major (American) city? The guns come out when the stops lights go off.

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually think it'd work but you can make the case for things like if there's, say, a million people in a city demanding security private security/insurance firms would step in to provide a police like service, at least for paying customers. I expect that would fairly quickly descend into fairly unpleasant protection rackets at best but, you know, there's at least a case to be made. Things like spending billions of dollars to connect rural areas with a population of a few thousand to modern transportation or communication networks just aren't going to happen without government incentives.

 

[Ice Queen]

10 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Really? I'd kind of lean towards the opposite being true actually.

I don't think it'd actually work but you can sort of make a case for the libertarian ideal of in the absence of government private entities would step in to provide services if there's sufficient demand for them in high population density areas. In rural areas without government intervention and subsidies from urban regions things like modern transportation and communications links and emergency services just aren't happening.

Private entities might step in, but it would be much more expensive for the citizens. We tried that here with public transportation many years ago before the creation of our Port Authority. We had 32 separate transportation companies (not counting rail and incline) and it was outrageously expensive, not to mention riddled with corruption.

There are some things the government can just do better. Large scale mass transit is one of them. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said:

@Ser Scot A Ellison-

You should still have to reach a higher bar to justify inequality of representation.

WS,

That's a perfectly rational position.  People when faced with impacts to their existing power and influence are not perfectly rational.  And remember eliminating the EC will not be a simple or easy thing to accomplish.

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, Weeping Sore said:

Subsidized, a lot of it for ethanol and export. Cereals are the least perishable and easiest to import, and it would be good for the nation's physical health for meat prices to rise and enforce portion control.

Could anyone get elected on that message? It sounds like political suicide, imagine the attack adds like "My opponent is trying to ration meat, outlaw steak and burgers". 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I wonder how many people are going to die in New York because ambulances, fire trucks, police, and other emergency services will have more trouble moving through Midtown Manhattan due to the Trump's staying there.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

I wonder how many people are going to die in New York because ambulances, fire trucks, police, and other emergency services will have more trouble moving through Midtown Manhattan due to the Trump's staying there.

A fair question.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

1 hour ago, Mexal said:

First there was the Japanese PM with Trump's kids. Then there was the diplomats being invited to Trump Hotel to get them to stay there when in town to curry favor. Now he's asking the Argentinian president to help with some permits for one of his projects. I expected him to do this but didn't expect him to be so blatant or do it so quickly.

 

Just a quick look on Twitter shows that Trump supporters won't actually care about this.

Hillary Clinton apparently made $200 million dollars from being Secretary of State, while in office.

And it seems like Macri denied it

[Mexal]

5 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

Just a quick look on Twitter shows that Trump supporters won't actually care about this.

Hillary Clinton apparently made $200 million dollars from being Secretary of State, while in office.

And it seems like Macri denied it

This isn't about Trump's supporters, it's about Congress or others launching investigations into his conflicts of interests. Trump supporters give no fucks about what he does as long as he leaves them to do what they want or continues to promise them shit he can't deliver.

I saw that Macri denied it. Not sure who's lying, don't really care. It wouldn't surprise me and it's just one of a thousand other conflict of interests that the Washington Post laid out. Hell, Trump registered 8 new companies in Saudi Arabia while he was campaigning!

[Martell Spy]

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-democrats-trump-231691

Obama says he may take on Trump
The president refuses to say he’d hold to the tradition of avoiding public comment or political attacks on the successor.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Kalbear,

See what S John said.  

That doesn't give any actual specifics however. I agree that there is some attitude from rural types that indicate that they should vote differently than urban types, but practically they get more benefit from the programs that the government supplies, they get more employment, and they get more raw money. And not only that, by and large they get that money FROM the urban types.

Both you and now @S John have not answered specifically where they actually differ. 

Quote

That's a perfectly rational position.  People when faced with impacts to their existing power and influence are not perfectly rational.  And remember eliminating the EC will not be a simple or easy thing to accomplish

You were the one arguing that rural voters should get a disproportionate amount of the vote because of their rural needs, which you still have not actually addressed. 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Just now, Mexal said:

This isn't about Trump's supporters, it's about Congress or others launching investigations into his conflicts of interests. Trump supporters give no fucks about what he does as long as he leaves them to do what they want or continues to promise them shit he can't deliver.

I saw that Macri denied it. Not sure who's lying, don't really care. It wouldn't surprise me and it's just one of a thousand other conflict of interests that the Washington Post laid out. Hell, Trump registered 8 new companies in Saudi Arabia while he was campaigning!

Yeah, I'm not surprised at all that Macri denied it. He has every reason to.

But Trump's supporters do matter. Republican Congressmen and Congresswomen will not be able to vigorously luanch investigations if their base does froth at the mouth if it looks like someone daring to impugn Dear Supreme Leader.

[Weeping Sore]

27 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Could anyone get elected on that message? It sounds like political suicide, imagine the attack adds like "My opponent is trying to ration meat, outlaw steak and burgers". 

Oh, we were down the rabbit hole on mass rural retaliation against the elimination of the Electoral College, not proposing a candidate's platform.

I'd vote for someone who was trying to reduce meat consumption, both to reduce heart disease and methane emissions (30 x more potent than CO2 at trapping heat), but I realize I'm fringe here.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

35 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

I wonder how many people are going to die in New York because ambulances, fire trucks, police, and other emergency services will have more trouble moving through Midtown Manhattan due to the Trump's staying there.

Geographically, not sure if it matters.  It's on 5th Ave., which goes down town.  The nearest hospital to West Midtown is St. Lukes on the UWS, If you are East of 5th, you were probably going to either NY Presbyterian (Cornell) at 68th and York, or maybe to Mt. Sinai, up in the 90s and 5th, or Lenox Hill, Circa 79 and Lex.  Further uptown you were going to NY Pres (Columbia) or Metropolitan Hospital in Harlem.  So anyhow, ambulance is probably fine.  I should mention that cross town traffic basically sucks with or without Trump. Equally, the way the fire companies are located vis a vis the bottleneck, I'm actually not that worried.  

[Martell Spy]

Not in Our Town

Can American cities stop Trump from deporting millions?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/11/how_cities_could_thwart_donald_trump_s_deportation_plan.html